GrahamPaige29

6 Volt Booster Starter Necessary?

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Back to your original question about getting it to turn over.  Since you had it out of the car you would not have this problem I had  but you could in the future.  I just tried the starter on my restored 23 Moon engine.  It didn't turn over in fact it did nothing.  In checking the ground I found I did too good of a job painting the engine and frame.  I had ground off the paint where the ground attach to the frame but the motor mounts were now insulated from the block due to the epoxy paint.  When I jumped ground  from the battery to a engine stud it would work.  Modern cars have ground straps which early cars do not.  Just something to remember.

 

 

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5 hours ago, jan arnett (2) said:

Back to your original question about getting it to turn over.  Since you had it out of the car you would not have this problem I had  but you could in the future.  I just tried the starter on my restored 23 Moon engine.  It didn't turn over in fact it did nothing.  In checking the ground I found I did too good of a job painting the engine and frame.  I had ground off the paint where the ground attach to the frame but the motor mounts were now insulated from the block due to the epoxy paint.  When I jumped ground  from the battery to a engine stud it would work.  Modern cars have ground straps which early cars do not.  Just something to remember.

 

 

 

I had a very similar issue. I had to run a ground strap from the starter to the frame  as I painted the parts too well and they were insulated. That plus the connections  on the starter motor were very corroded inside. 

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Hey guys.  Now that I have my engine spinning from the starter motor and the carb cleaned up can you help me with a (suspected) problem in timing.  I had primed the cylinders as was suggested.  On trying to start the car, there were bangs but I saw gases coming out of the carb choke!  Am I right in having the "eureka" moment that the timing is set exactly 180 degrees off???  Meaning I've set it igniting on the wrong stroke TDC?  Is this a common issue?

 

I had a moment last night while I was lying in bed that this was the issue.  My wife was mad at me that I wouldn't go to sleep but it was driving me crazy thinking about it. 

 

Also, there are timing marks on my flywheel that say "Spark Full Advance" but I think I assembled the flywheel 180 degrees off too.  I think you're supposed to be using this as alignment on the compression stroke.  I feel really stupid...

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On 11/18/2017 at 7:51 PM, jan arnett (2) said:

Back to your original question about getting it to turn over.  Since you had it out of the car you would not have this problem I had  but you could in the future.  I just tried the starter on my restored 23 Moon engine.  It didn't turn over in fact it did nothing.  In checking the ground I found I did too good of a job painting the engine and frame.  I had ground off the paint where the ground attach to the frame but the motor mounts were now insulated from the block due to the epoxy paint.  When I jumped ground  from the battery to a engine stud it would work.  Modern cars have ground straps which early cars do not.  Just something to remember.

 

 

 

Hey Jan.  Yeah same issue with me.  I did such a good job painting the parts that there was no ground or "earth" for the starter motor!!!  I ended up grinding off some paint and running a strap from the engine to the frame just to make sure I have good ground.

 

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47 minutes ago, GrahamPaige29 said:

Hey guys.  Now that I have my engine spinning from the starter motor and the carb cleaned up can you help me with a (suspected) problem in timing.  I had primed the cylinders as was suggested.  On trying to start the car, there were bangs but I saw gases coming out of the carb choke!  Am I right in having the "eureka" moment that the timing is set exactly 180 degrees off???  Meaning I've set it igniting on the wrong stroke TDC?  Is this a common issue?

 

I had a moment last night while I was lying in bed that this was the issue.  My wife was mad at me that I wouldn't go to sleep but it was driving me crazy thinking about it. 

 

Also, there are timing marks on my flywheel that say "Spark Full Advance" but I think I assembled the flywheel 180 degrees off too.  I think you're supposed to be using this as alignment on the compression stroke.  I feel really stupid...

 

 

You can work backwards to check if the flywheel is correctly positioned.

 

What only matters for ignition timing is the distributor's relationship to the pistons & valves. If the cam timing is correct then you need to check if the distributor, and/or, firing order of the spark plug wires are correct.   After that see if the rotor is pointing at the number one spark plug wire when the number one cylinder is on TDC. Then you can check to see if the flywheel marks are where they should be.

 

If you can see the movement of the number one cylinder intake valve, watch it as the engine is turned over by hand. Might be easier with the plugs out.  Or put your finger over the number one cylinder spark plug hole and feel for the pressure build up of the compression stroke. As soon as it stops making pressure, stop turning the crank and see if the rotor is pointing to number one plug wire. 

 

On any four stroke engine, half a turn of the crankshaft after the intake closes is TDC at the end of the compression stroke. The distributor rotor should be pointing at the number one cylinder spark plug wire's contact inside the distributor cap and the points are just opening and thus causing a spark.  That should be close enough timing to get it running. Then you can fine tune it  from there after it's running and warmed up.

 

 

If  your certain the flywheel  is in the wrong position, and you don't want to remove it,  you can make new timing marks if you can get access to the piston through the spark plug hole.

 

The way to establish true TDC on number one cylinder is to use a piston stop.  Some are a metal bar, bolted across the block, with a bolt that extends down to touch the top of the piston. Some can be used with the head on by using an old spark plug with the insulator knocked out and a large bolt threaded in it's place.

 

Basically you want a way of stopping the piston most of the way up it's travel, but before it reaches the top.   The stop is inserted. Then very carefully by hand you turn the crank shaft until  the piston  top meets the stop.  Don't turn the crank fast or with a lot of force or it'll put stress on the connecting rod when it meets the stop.

 

When the piston is up against the stop, make a timing mark with  a Sharpie pen on masking tape on the flywheel. Then rotate the crankshaft backwards until the piston meets the stop again. Make another mark. Exactly half way between those two marks is the true TDC of that cylinder.  Now you can mark that TDC permanently. Then you can measure off the timing advance mark if you know the number of degrees advance, then divide the diameter of the flywheel by 360 degrees and make another mark at the distance in the flywheel that gives you that advance.  Then you can use a timing light whenever you need to check advance.  

 

Paul

Edited by PFitz (see edit history)

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7 minutes ago, PFitz said:

 

 

You can work backwards to check if the flywheel is correctly positioned.

 

What only matters for ignition timing is the distributor's relationship to the pistons & valves. If the cam timing is correct then you need to check if the distributor, and/or, firing order of the spark plug wires are correct.   After that see if the rotor is pointing at the number one spark plug wire when the number one cylinder is on TDC. Then you can check to see if the flywheel marks are where they should be.

 

If you can see the movement of the number one cylinder intake valve, watch it as the engine is turned over by hand. Might be easier with the plugs out.  Or put your finger over the number one cylinder spark plug hole and feel for the pressure build up of the compression stroke. As soon as it stops making pressure, stop turning the crank and see if the rotor is pointing to number one plug wire. 

 

On any four stroke engine, half a turn of the crankshaft after the intake closes is TDC at the end of the compression stroke. The distributor rotor should be pointing at the number one cylinder spark plug wire's contact inside the distributor cap and the points are just opening and thus causing a spark.  That should be close enough timing to get it running. Then you can fine tune it  from there after it's running and warmed up.

 

 

If  your certain the flywheel  is in the wrong position, and you don't want to remove it,  you can make new timing marks if you can get access to the piston through the spark plug hole.

 

The way to establish true TDC on number one cylinder is to use a piston stop.  Some are a metal bar, bolted across the block, with a bolt that extends down to touch the top of the piston. Some can be used with the head on by using an old spark plug with the insulator knocked out and a large bolt threaded in it's place.

 

Basically you want a way of stopping the piston most of the way up it's travel, but before it reaches the top.   The stop is inserted. Then very carefully by hand you turn the crank shaft until  the piston  top meets the stop.  Don't turn the crank fast or with a lot of force or it'll put stress on the connecting rod when it meets the stop.

 

When the piston is up against the stop, make a timing mark with  a Sharpie pen on masking tape on the flywheel. Then rotate the crankshaft backwards until the piston meets the stop again. Make another mark. Exactly half way between those two marks is the true TDC of that cylinder.  Now you can mark that TDC permanently. Then you can measure off the timing advance mark if you know the number of degrees advance, then divide the diameter of the flywheel by 360 degrees and make another mark at the distance in the flywheel that gives you that advance.  Then you can use a timing light whenever you need to check advance.  

 

Paul

 

Thanks Paul.  I will look at it again on the weekend.  I think what happened was because I established TDC from a diagram in my owners' manual by the setup of the timing chain and marks on it, I wrongfully assumed that this is where the spark should be firing.  But that is the exhaust stroke.  It's the other TDC or compression stroke that is where it fires.  I also assembled the flywheel back onto the motor at exhaust TDC.  I assume this is why the "Spark Full Advance" hash mark is off as well.  I'm actually quite relieved because I thought it might be carb problems but all the guys including Carb King were right when they said it's more likely a timing issue.  He said that carb problems rarely account for a car not starting unless they are serious.  I should be able to establish compression TDC by feeling the air rushing out and then re-orient the cables accordingly.  With a Graham Paige, there is an off-center joint on the distributor shaft that prevents it from being incorrectly assembled.  But that's doesn't mean your rotor is pointed at the right point or cable at the right moment.  You have to orient them correctly including the right order.

 

Sigh.  This project certainly has it's moments of extreme frustration but I geuss that'll make it all the better when it's going...

 

Thanks again.

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Geoff,

    You are correct on the alignment of the distributer....but if you pull the cam, all bets are off.  You need to rotate the distributer 60 degrees before you insert the cam.  What I am trying to say is on most of these cars the distributer is not installed correctly.

 

Steps to check...

1. take off the distributer cap

2. rotate the crank to TDC #1 (note the distributer is moving, just to make sure all is connected)

3. find #1 spark plug wire (front of engine) follow the wire back to the distributer.

4. The rotor should be pointing to the correct #1 wire...if not rotate the wires clockwise till they line up with #1

 

Hope that helps....

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47 minutes ago, Graham Man said:

Geoff,

    You are correct on the alignment of the distributer....but if you pull the cam, all bets are off.  You need to rotate the distributer 60 degrees before you insert the cam.  What I am trying to say is on most of these cars the distributer is not installed correctly.

 

Steps to check...

1. take off the distributer cap

2. rotate the crank to TDC #1 (note the distributer is moving, just to make sure all is connected)

3. find #1 spark plug wire (front of engine) follow the wire back to the distributer.

4. The rotor should be pointing to the correct #1 wire...if not rotate the wires clockwise till they line up with #1

 

Hope that helps....

 

Thanks.  I'm going to double check it all on the weekend. 

 

Marks lined up right on the cam/crank according to diagram for timing chain alignment.  This is TDC exhaust.  Intake valve should be just ready to open.  Exhaust should closing at 10 degrees.

Rotate engine to TDC compression.  Both valves should be closed (and remain closed).

Re-orient flywheel to reveal hashmark "Spark Pug Advance" position. (It's 180 off right now) easy to do.

Check distributor with spark all the way advanced and make sure points have just opened.

Make sure rotor is pointing directly at #1 contact.

Ensure all remaining cables are in the right order clockwise...1-5-3-6-2-4.

Start praying...

 

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The thing about the cam is you align the distributer then push in the cam, because of the bevel cut gears between the two, the distributor rotates as you push in the cam, normally unnoticed.  The only way to get it correct is back up the distributor drive before you push in the cam and check the location...this step is normally overlooked,   because you can always move the wires around to get it to run.   I figured this out looking at original engine pictures and cold not figure out why the wires on my Graham were wrong.   A friend of mine who has been a mechanic for 70 years said all the Dodges of the area are  same way as Graham always one position off on the distributer.

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13 minutes ago, Graham Man said:

The thing about the cam is you align the distributer then push in the cam, because of the bevel cut gears between the two, the distributor rotates as you push in the cam, normally unnoticed.  The only way to get it correct is back up the distributor drive before you push in the cam and check the location...this step is normally overlooked,   because you can always move the wires around to get it to run.   I figured this out looking at original engine pictures and cold not figure out why the wires on my Graham were wrong.   A friend of mine who has been a mechanic for 70 years said all the Dodges of the area are  same way as Graham always one position off on the distributer.

 

  Ahh ok.  I get it.  Will check that for sure.  Thanks!!

 

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37 minutes ago, Graham Man said:

The thing about the cam is you align the distributer then push in the cam, because of the bevel cut gears between the two, the distributor rotates as you push in the cam, normally unnoticed.  The only way to get it correct is back up the distributor drive before you push in the cam and check the location...this step is normally overlooked,   because you can always move the wires around to get it to run.   I figured this out looking at original engine pictures and cold not figure out why the wires on my Graham were wrong.   A friend of mine who has been a mechanic for 70 years said all the Dodges of the area are  same way as Graham always one position off on the distributer.

 

Can you let me know which wire is supposed to be nearest cylinder 1 when it's properly installed?

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If you have a owners manual there is a page that shows the lubrication points on a bare chassis, you should be able to see the spark plug wires on it.  There should also be a wiring diagram but that will not be as clear.  I will try to get a picture of my 6 tonight.

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6 minutes ago, Graham Man said:

If you have a owners manual there is a page that shows the lubrication points on a bare chassis, you should be able to see the spark plug wires on it.  There should also be a wiring diagram but that will not be as clear.  I will try to get a picture of my 6 tonight.

Ok thanks!

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Not mentioned here is that for every rotation of the camshaft the crank shaft makes two revolutions.

Look at your timing  marks as mentioned on your assembly and rotate the crankshaft one revolution.

Then align the plug wires.

Most crankshafts cannot be installed incorrectly, There will usually be one bolt that wont line up if its clocked wrong.

It certainly sounds to me that your ignition is indeed 180 degrees out. Its a 50-50 deal.

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I might also add that the distributor follows the cam shaft, not the crank shaft.

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24 minutes ago, Graham Man said:

If you have a owners manual there is a page that shows the lubrication points on a bare chassis, you should be able to see the spark plug wires on it.  There should also be a wiring diagram but that will not be as clear.  I will try to get a picture of my 6 tonight.

 

Hey Paul.  I looked carefully at my wiring diagram.  Can I assume that the distributor should line up exactly this way?

Diagram.jpg

Diagram 2.jpg

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If you can match the drawing, then it will look like the drawing, but in a sense, it doesn't have to because you have a choice of 6 positions, unless there's something on the distributor like a tackometer drive or Electro-lock that it has to point the same way each time.  Yeah, I know it sounds crazy, but as I said, all you need is to have the rotor send a spark to the number one plug when that cylinder is on TDC of compression stroke (both valves closed).

 

What's important that that drawing does tell you is the rotor rotation (clockwise) and the firing order ( 1,5,3, 6 2,4 ). Knowing those two things, you can put the wires in the cap in the correct order no matter which of the six possible positions the distributor can be installed in when the rotor is pointed at a cap contact as the points are opening.

 

So, as Graham Man is pointing out, you need to get the distributer drive gear to mesh exactly in one of those six positions (and not in between). Then see which one  the rotor points to in the cap and that becomes the number one cylinder. 

 

Confused even more, now ?

 

OK, lets say your looking down on the distributor (bird's eye view), the cap is off, and the rotor is pointing to your 12:00 position. And lets say that you've determined that the number one cylinder is on TDC and both it's valves are closed, and the points have just opened. Then just put the number one cylinder spark plug wire into the distributer cap's wire tower that will align with that 12:00 position when the cap is  placed on the distributor. Then moving clockwise in the direction of rotor rotation, put the number  5 wire in the next cap wire tower, then the number 3, etc..

 

If the rotor is pointed in between cap contacts when the points open, as Graham Man is saying, you need to lift it up enough to un-mesh the drive gear then without turning the distributor housing turn the rotor and drive gear slightly so that it drops back down and around to align with the cap contact.  Not uncommon that it takes a few tries to get the teeth in the right mesh so that the points open as the rotor just comes into alignment with a cap contact.

 

Paul

Edited by PFitz (see edit history)

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2 minutes ago, PFitz said:

If you can match the drawing, then it will look like the drawing, but in a sense, it doesn't have to because you have a choice of 6 positions.  Yeah, I know it sounds crazy, but as I said, all you need is to have the rotor send a spark to the number one plug when that cylinder is on TDC of compression stroke (both valves closed).

 

What's important that that drawing does tell you is the rotor rotation (clockwise) and the firing order ( 1,5,3, 6 2,4 ). Knowing those two things, you can put the wires in the cap in the correct order no matter which of the six possible positions the distributor can be installed in when the rotor is pointed at a cap contact as the points are opening.

 

So, as Graham Man is pointing out, you need to get the distributer drive gear to mesh exactly in one of those six positions (and not in between). Then see which one  the rotor points to in the cap and that becomes the number one cylinder. 

 

Confused even more, now ?

 

OK, lets say your looking down on the distributor (bird's eye view), the cap is off, and the rotor is pointing to your 12:00 position. And lets say that you've determined that the number one cylinder is on TDC and both it's valves are closed, and the points have just opened. Then just put the number one cylinder spark plug wire into the distributer cap's wire tower that will align with that 12:00 position when the cap is  placed on the distributor. Then moving clockwise in the direction of rotor rotation, put the number  5 wire in the next cap wire tower, then the number 3, etc..

 

If the rotor is pointed in between cap contacts when the points open, as Graham Man is saying, you need to lift it up enough to un-mesh the drive gear then without turning the distributor housing turn the rotor and drive gear slightly so that it drops back down and around to align with the cap contact.  Not uncommon that it takes a few tries to get the teeth in the right mesh so that the points open as the rotor just comes into alignment with a cap contact.

 

Paul

 

Thanks Paul.  I'm excited and a little nervous to try to start again.  I have to go out of town for a couple of days but I should be able to try again on the weekend.  Thanks to you guys for the guidance.

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This sight always amazes me, the amount of group knowledge available is astounding.  You will get this behind you, soon you will be researching how to install a roof.

 

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16 hours ago, Graham Man said:

This sight always amazes me, the amount of group knowledge available is astounding.  You will get this behind you, soon you will be researching how to install a roof.

 

 

Yeah it's a real lifesaver.  I couldn't do it without you guys.  I will be so relieved when I get then engine running.  Then I'll finish the brakes and steering and take it for a boot around the block.  Next, on to the body again...

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Ya know that all this advice isn't free......  you owe us pictures when you get it running !

 

Paul

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10 minutes ago, PFitz said:

Ya know that all this advice isn't free......  you owe us pictures when you get it running !

 

Paul

 

Roger that!  I'll make a video!

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23 hours ago, GrahamPaige29 said:

 

Roger that!  I'll make a video!

 Looking forward to seeing it !!!

 

Have a wonderful Thanks Giving.

 

Paul

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On 11/23/2017 at 11:07 AM, PFitz said:

 Looking forward to seeing it !!!

 

Have a wonderful Thanks Giving.

 

Paul

Thanks Paul.  Have a good American Thanksgiving.  Canadian Thanksgiving was way back in October!  We have it earlier because of the shorter growing season.

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