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Neil's '41 Super Model 51


neil morse

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Thanks, Peter.  I'll save you some time.  Here's Matt's post about the LED's.

 

You may have noticed that my fog lights are missing in that most recent shot of my car.  I got correct brackets that put the lights up above the bumper where they should be, and I'm in the process of putting the brackets on and redoing the wiring on the lights.

 

Neil

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Fog Lights

 

In a separate thread about fog lights, I noted that the fog light brackets that were on my car when I bought it were too short and put the fog lights too low, below the top of the bumper.

 

presidio.thumb.jpg.8e3afc4d8527b336d4faf9fecb1d3218.jpg

 

With the help of the inestimable Matt Harwood, I purchased a pair of reproduction brackets that were taller.  I finished installing them today.

 

foglights4.jpg.d06e561e7a865c8805666d0f40a07872.jpg

 

I also redid the wiring for the lights to replace the job done by a former owner.  As of now, I am using a toggle switch under the dash, but I left enough wire to move the switch over to the right side of the dash if I should ever be lucky enough to obtain a factory "FOG LIGHTS" switch down the line.  I soldered a second wire to the socket to use as a dedicated ground, and enlarged the hole in the housing so both wires could exit together.  I then had just enough of the wiring loom I got from Bob's leftover to put a length of loom on each light to cover the two wires from the light to the point where the wires went in through the grill.  Here's what it looked like (and yes, I know that it was not completely "correct" to use black wire for both the power and the ground and that I may confuse some future automotive archaeologist, but one is cloth insulated and the other is plastic insulated and that's just what I happened to have on hand).

 

foglights1.thumb.jpg.8808384a8bf3439a17aa8cc244d76b0e.jpg 

 

 

When I was figuring out how to do the wiring, I was troubled by how to do the "Y" connection where the hot wire to the lights split from one wire into the two wires for the lights.  I was looking for something else on the Rhode Island Wire Service website, when I found the perfect solution.  It turns out they offer a "one-into-two" vintage bakelite connector that takes bullet connectors for all three wires.  So this way I can simply pull out the fog light wires if I ever want to change them out later on for something different or if I have to do any repairs, etc.  Here's what it looks like.

 

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I hooked everything up, hit the switch, and was happy with the result!

 

foglights5.jpg.6cc57a6316d61463a5cbcb4539df2f64.jpg

 

Thanks for viewing and listening, and have a great evening!

 

 

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

Fog Light Switch

 

I came up with a nice solution to my fog light switch problem.  I really didn't like having them on an unfused toggle switch.  I found this aftermarket switch (made by "Ideal") that mounts under the dash.  The switch has fuse on it, and also has a bulb under the knob so it lights up when the fog lights are turned on.  I guess that was to remind people not to leave their fog lights on!  It's not factory, but it's period correct and works great.  (The toggle switch in the photos next to the fog light switch is for my electric fuel pump.)

 

FogSwitch1.thumb.jpg.161f81179844112062abc8f909afe9d0.jpg

 

FogSwitch2.thumb.jpg.5bb5edb0f8c633af50fc62af1ecb0723.jpg

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Hi Ken:

 

The rubber floor mat was in the car when I bought it.  Given the good shape it's in, I'm assuming that it's a reproduction.  I don't know the full history of my car, but it's clear that someone did a lot of work on it in the past -- probably in the 80's or 90's as far as I can figure out.  I figure the mat was installed then.  I think Bob's has them.

 

Neil

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Neil,

I'm going to use a similar switch for my rear backup light when I get around to installing it.  It's actually a rear light and switch from a '41 Cadillac and also illuminates. I'm going to rechrome the housing and paint the"B" first.  Did you drill mounting holes in the turned dash panel or the unfinished panel further underneath the dash?  I think my switch will need a mounting block of some sort to lower it. Otherwise it is too far up and under the dash where you can hardly see it. Great job on the switch, really looks good. 

buickbackup switch.jpg

buickrearlight.JPG

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Hi Peter:

 

My switch didn't require any drilling.  It's the kind that just clamps under the bottom lip of the dash (see photo below).  It's actually completely out of sight down there unless you bend down and peer under the dash, but that's okay with me.  

 

Your back-up light set up looks really great.  I wouldn't chrome plate the switch if it were mine.  It doesn't look like it was plated to begin with.  It's hard to see what the mounting method is from the one photo you posted, but it looks like it was intended to fit under the bottom of the dash like mine.  I would just install it the way it was intended to be installed, even if it's out of sight.  

 

FogSwitch3.thumb.jpg.dbf7f039ef20bcf7e037a22c81f44551.jpg

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I really like the non-invasive mounting bracket on your switch - mine has 2 holes you can barely see in the pic so requires drilling.  Sorry I wasn't clear, I'm going to chrome the tail light housing which is a bit pitted. I painted the switch housing grey to match the steering column.  My dilema is that the light comes with a body mounting bracket, not bumper or splash pan, which will be  cool if I can make it work.  The location of Cadillac tail light housings differ from Buicks, however, which is why I can't just slap it on. I think it will work but it will take some cajonas to drill into the body.  Here's a pic of the Cadillac set-up I'm trying to replicate. 

41cadrearlightswitch.JPG

1941_Cadillac_Series_62_convertible_coupe_rear.JPG

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Okay, I see what you're saying now.  Because of the difference in the Caddy dash design, those switches were much more visible on the Caddy than they will be on your Buick.  Also, I can see in the photo that the shape of the accessory switches matches the factory chrome switch, suggesting that those fog and back-up switches were part of a factory accessory package rather than after-market, like mine.  That probably explains why your switch requires some drilling whereas mine was an after-market accessory that was designed to fit under any dash.

 

As far as mounting the light, yes, I agree that it will take some courage to go that way, but it sure looks clean!

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  • 3 weeks later...

 

Transmission Removal

 

With the help of several very kind friends, we pulled the transmission out of my car today so I could deal with the problem of it popping out of third gear on a downgrade.  Not an easy job, but things went very smoothly and we had it out in about four hours.

 

trans_job.thumb.jpg.02413da658e2140ed1267451ed04a7b2.jpg

 

I haven't had a chance to inspect things in detail yet, but here's a pic of the front bearing.  Anyone see anything wrong here? 😉

 

front_bearing.jpg.bcb7fa8aac962e4f54b5e4188b50382a.jpg

 

And here's a shot of the rear of the engine.  Again, things don't look quite right.

 

engine_rear2.jpg.e4fd8de65cac92c14bbb480cf3d9b7cc.jpg

 

I will be taking the gearbox down to Prof. Don Micheletti next week for an autopsy/diagnostic evaluation .  After seeing it, I'm kind of amazed that the only symptom it displayed was popping out of third gear.  I will keep you all posted as work continues.

 

 

 

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Wow, that's a big job and those bearings look scary. I agree, it's amazing that it wasn't making all kinds of scary noises. The good news is that just about everything you should need to fix it is pretty readily available.

 

Is there any indication as to what caused the bearing failure? Incorrect installation? Wrong parts?

 

Good that you tackled it now when you have the time rather than having a failure on the road!

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7 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Is there any indication as to what caused the bearing failure? Incorrect installation? Wrong parts?

 

 

There is no obvious indication so far, but Don has only seen a few photos at this point.  I'm sure he will have some ideas once I bring it down to his place so he can inspect it.  The inside looks okay (at least to me, but I'm very new to this).  It's fascinating to see the innards and watch how it works when you shift through the gears.  The one thing that we noticed when we took it out yesterday was the thick layer of orange RTV between the transmission and the bell housing.  My buddy who was helping me thought this was an indication that whoever had been in there before didn't know what he was doing, and Don agrees.  I will report further after Don and I have had a chance to look at it together.

 

trans_top_view.jpg.acc840d94277e1b3681459d893f4bb44.jpg

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16 hours ago, valk said:

Is that big *ss piece of wood your insurance policy? 

 

😁 That's actually my buddy Konrad under the car in that photo, and I'm not sure what he was using the wood block for.  I think he was in the process of putting some chains around the rear axle so we could winch it back with a come-along to separate the torque tube from the transmission.  As far as safety precautions, Konrad used to be a maintenance supervisor for United Airlines, and handle things like jacking up a 747 to fix the landing gear, so you can be sure that he had the car well supported before any of us got under there!

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On 12/31/2019 at 1:37 PM, valk said:

Hi Neil,

I'm going to use a similar switch for my rear backup light when I get around to installing it.  It's actually a rear light and switch from a '41 Cadillac and also illuminates. I'm going to rechrome the housing and paint the"B" first.  Did you drill mounting holes in the turned dash panel or the unfinished panel further underneath the dash?  I think my switch will need a mounting block of some sort to lower it. Otherwise it is too far up and under the dash where you can hardly see it. Great job on the switch, really looks good. 

buickbackup switch.jpg

 

Yes, the switch you show is 1941 Cadillac and you can on say ebay find a matching switch with an "F" on on it for your fogs (just hard to find really nice plastic) - the only difference I see is that the Cadillac would have a brown/copper-ish painted bezel.  That being said though - my 1941 Buick had a Fog Light Switch in the center of the grill around the radio surround where there was a host of other switches, ash tray, and ...

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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Clutch Removal

 

I know this is just another day in the shop for many of you, but since this is all new to me I'm going to post some progress photos as I go along.

 

Here's a shot of the DIY screw jacks that I made to support the rear of the engine while the transmission is out.  This was Don's idea (of course), and turned out to be very easy.   Two lengths of threaded rod and four nuts was all it took.

 

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Removal of the lower pan exposes the clutch and flywheel.

 

clutch.thumb.jpg.36bf6e29c2e3bd535466b172a50ecb66.jpg

 

Once I got it out, the throw-out bearing support didn't look as bad as I thought it would be.  (However, I went ahead and ordered a new one anyway just to be safe.)

 

clutch_release_br_support2.thumb.jpg.c841f01dc05b9368a511c1a9ad6494e2.jpg

 

I did a little preliminary clean up work on the transmission case preparatory to taking it down to Don's tomorrow for the full autopsy/rebuild.  This photo also shows the disassembly of the rear transmission mount so that can be cleaned as well.  I was able to find NORS front and rear transmission mounts on eBay for a reasonable price.

 

trans_mount.thumb.jpg.bd198d2ff23c62a2b82072367193af7b.jpg

 

That's all for now -- stay tuned for more reports.

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Keep showing us the details, Neil. These are always the most helpful kinds of posts and it's ALWAYS interesting to see what's going on and how others solve problems. I've been there and done that, but I still enjoy seeing other peoples' work. I'm mostly curious about that front input shaft bearing failure and how that happened. So odd...

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The bad front bearing certainly explains it popping out of gear, but why did the bearing fail? Be sure to check the condition of the pilot bearing in the back of the crankshaft. I would also check the bellhousing alignment with regard to the crank.

 

As for the RTV, I don't like that either, but the bellhousing acts as the front bearing retainer, and the oil return is right there, so I'll bet there supposed to be a gasket. Let us know what you find out.

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2 hours ago, Bloo said:

so I'll bet there supposed to be a gasket.

 

Yes, that much I've confirmed.  I have a full gasket set from Bob's, and there's definitely a gasket that goes between the transmission and the bell housing.  I don't know why anyone would just decide to "make a gasket" and put that quantity of RTV in there.  One theory we have so far is that it may have been RTV getting into the bearing that caused it to fail.  I will be able to report more after Don gets a chance to inspect the transmission tomorrow.

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Speaking of gaskets, and I don't mean to steal Neil's thread, I'm trying to find an elusive engine leak (oil) that's driving me nuts.  I've crawled under there many times and it is not coming from the pan, push rod cover or valve cover.   I intend to remove the pans to really see what's going on but my fear is it is between the engine and transmission. Could it be the gasket Neil referenced above?  

 

Neil, your car is going to be exceptional when you finish. 

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10 minutes ago, valk said:

Speaking of gaskets, and I don't mean to steal Neil's thread, I'm trying to find an elusive engine leak (oil) that's driving me nuts.  I've crawled under there many times and it is not coming from the pan, push rod cover or valve cover.   I intend to remove the pans to really see what's going on but my fear is it is between the engine and transmission. Could it be the gasket Neil referenced above?  

 

Neil, your car is going to be exceptional when you finish. 

 

Likely the rear main or the torque ball. Both are challenging and involved to replace and any repair will be temporary at best. Long term temporary, maybe, but I can guarantee both will eventually start to leak again. My advice is to let it leak. It's not hurting anything and as long as you keep it topped up (it's not like it's going to dump 12 quarts of oil while you're driving) you'll never have an issue.

 

All old cars leak. It's their default state. Allow it to happen and you'll have less stress in your life.

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41 minutes ago, valk said:

Speaking of gaskets, and I don't mean to steal Neil's thread, I'm trying to find an elusive engine leak (oil) that's driving me nuts.  I've crawled under there many times and it is not coming from the pan, push rod cover or valve cover.   I intend to remove the pans to really see what's going on but my fear is it is between the engine and transmission. Could it be the gasket Neil referenced above?  

 

Don't worry about stealing my thread, Peter.  Leaks are definitely part of what I'm trying to deal with, too, as I will explain below.

 

My first question about your leak, can you tell what's actually leaking, engine oil or transmission oil?   Although I'm still learning some basic Buick anatomy here, I think identifying the fluid is the first step to understanding where it's coming from.  Matt talks about the rear main bearing or the torque ball.  But unless I'm missing something here, those two areas are going to leak different fluid.  And if you've ever smelled the gear oil in the transmission or rear end, you know how different the gear oil is from engine oil.  The gear oil has, at least for me, a literally nauseating aroma.  The day that we took the transmission out of my car and I opened it up, I felt nauseous for at least two hours.  I asked Don about it, and he agreed.  In fact, what he said in his characteristic style was, "Neil, if you didn't puke into the gear box when you took the cover off, you're doing it wrong!"  Engine oil, on the other hand, has a kind of gasoline smell to it.

 

If you can collect enough of the what's leaking and stick your finger in it and then take a good whiff, you should be able to tell which it is.  Another suggestion I would have it that you take your car for a good drive to get everything heated up and then put it back in the garage after putting fresh cardboard down on the garage floor from the front of the car to the back.  Wait a couple of days and you should be able to see where the fresh drips are coming from.

 

Whatever your car is leaking, I doubt that it's due to a faulty gasket between the transmission and the engine.  One of the first places I would suspect based on my experience is the two holes in the side of the transmission case where the shift linkages exit the case.  My car was leaking a lot from that area.  I got new seals for those openings that we will be installing when we rebuild the transmission.

 

Okay, on to the leak problem I'm currently trying to diagnose as we do the present job.  As I referenced above, there's a pan under the bell housing that you can remove to get access to the clutch and flywheel.  Here's what the pan on my car looked like when I removed it.

 

clutch_pan.thumb.jpg.959bf0fd40def28e547f0a57d5b8123a.jpg

 

According to Don, the bell housing on my car is "far and away the most filthy one I have ever seen."  (Not the good kind of superlative to hear, obviously!)  This area should be dry and relatively clean.  The fluid and gunk in here would logically be coming either out the back of the engine (rear main bearing problem) or out of the front of the transmission (transmission bearing problem).  In my case, we're pretty sure at this point that it's coming out of the transmission.  One, the stuff in the bottom of the pan is definitely the smelly stuff, and two, we already know that the front bearing on the transmission is a mess.  You'll see there's a little hole in the bottom of the pan to allow any accumulated fluid to drip out.  That's another area for you to check on your car.

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One of the sneaky places that Buicks tend to leak is in the spark plug area.

The bolt holes for the rocker stanchions are tapped through to the plug chamber. Oil can leak past the threads and try to fool you into thinking that the push rod cover is leaking.

Sealing up those threaded holes solves that problem.

We did that on Neils engine...  it was leaking like heck.

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Thanks Boys. I'll check those places you mentioned. I know what you mean regarding burned transmission fluid, differential fluid, and I'll throw in old gas. Each has a different nauseating and quite distinctive aroma - we should start a mechanics perfume line. My problem is engine oil that winds its way to dripping from the bell housing cover.  I'll pull the engine pans and take a closer look but my hunch is that Matt might be right regarding the rear seal.  This sounds stupid  but we recently had our driveway redone so I have to put a diaper under the car every time I take it out!  This will eventually get very old......and that is one cruddy looking bell housing. Will be very rewarding once cleaned up.  Carry on my friend....

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4 hours ago, valk said:

Speaking of gaskets, and I don't mean to steal Neil's thread, I'm trying to find an elusive engine leak (oil) that's driving me nuts. ... Could it be the gasket Neil referenced above?

 

Now that I understand your question better, I would say the answer is definitely no.  The only fluid that could leak into the area where the gasket is located between the transmission and the bell housing is gear oil.  If you know for a fact that it's engine oil that's dripping out of the bell housing pan, it must be the rear main seal as Matt suggested.  In which case Matt's other piece of advice is also good -- just learn to live with it because dealing with that problem is not something you want to contemplate!

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On 1/27/2020 at 11:03 AM, Matt Harwood said:

Keep showing us the details, Neil. These are always the most helpful kinds of posts and it's ALWAYS interesting to see what's going on and how others solve problems. I've been there and done that, but I still enjoy seeing other peoples' work. I'm mostly curious about that front input shaft bearing failure and how that happened. So odd...

 

 Me too! I do not see what could have rubbed against that bearing enough to wear like it did. I have mine out and don't see any thing in there. 

 

  Ben

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2 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

 

 Me too! I do not see what could have rubbed against that bearing enough to wear like it did. I have mine out and don't see any thing in there. 

 

  Ben

 

Yes, it's a mystery right now and I'm not even sure we will be able to figure it out.  All I can tell you is that the snap ring that holds the throw-out bearing support in place was also very chewed up.  This photo shows the shards of the snap ring that fell out when we pulled the transmission out compared to a new, intact snap ring.

 

snap_ring2.jpg.b3303862fa0e936ed73220103ef27ff6.jpg

 

Maybe the snap ring popped off and the pieces were rubbing against the bearing?  The surprising thing to me is that it continued to work so well.  Other than popping out third, the transmission had no other symptoms.  No growling or other odd noises.  Go figure.

 

2 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Don and Neil, are you doing a video or pictorial of the repair?

 

  Ben

 

I don't know about video, but I will certainly post a bunch of photos of the job as we go along.  I'm not going to do a full on @Gary W😉  but I will try to keep you posted as well as I can. 

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2 hours ago, neil morse said:

Maybe the snap ring popped off and the pieces were rubbing against the bearing?  The surprising thing to me is that it continued to work so well.  Other than popping out third, the transmission had no other symptoms.  No growling or other odd noises.  Go figure.

 Many times over the year I've thought that! Then stuff that you think should work fine, doesn't!

Keith

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Transmission Dissection 

 

So today I got a chance to bring the transmission down to Don's place where he and another friend helped me take it apart, clean everything up, and diagnose any problems.  I'm going to let Don comment on all the technical aspects because I'm just a student here, but I will post a bunch of photos for now.  In a nutshell, as you can see from the pictures, everything inside the case was coated with a layer of black coke that should not have been there.  Don said it looked like it had been in a fire.  This made the disassembly a much longer process than it should have been because a lot of things that should have just slid out and apart required a lot of cleaning and punching to get out.  However, the great news is that apart from the terribly damaged front bearing, all the internals actually looked very sound once we had removed them and cleaned them up.  More later on theories as to what caused the failure and why it was popping out of third gear.  Here's a photo gallery for now.

 

trans_rebuild1E.thumb.jpg.1f61f79b6928ccb614e11dd6e818d043.jpg

 

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trans_rebuild10.thumb.jpg.d09bea5a50666c339f2518a1bb5eba1b.jpg

Edited by neil morse (see edit history)
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12 hours ago, neil morse said:

Here's a photo gallery for now.

Super interesting Neil! Thanks for posting these pictures. I wonder if the trans was run with very low fluid for a while to wind up like that. 

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This is going to be long.

 

Working on Neil’s transmission has been a new experience for me, reinforcing the notion that you are never too old to learn.

Neil’s problem of the trans popping out of high, to me, said that there was a front bearing issue. At least that has always been typical when I encountered that problem.

However, when I first rode in Neil’s car, I thought that the characteristics of the way it popped out was strange. I don’t remember why I felt that way. It was just different.

On first seeing the photos Neil took of the bell housing filth, front transmission bearing, metal shards  and inside of the trans, I was some confused.

With the clean pressure plate and like new clutch disc, my first reaction was that Neil’s problem was caused by a botched clutch job. I still believe that now.

Why?

The front bearing ball cage is beat to death by the shards of metal that are remains of the throwout bearing support sleeve retaining ring.

Neil also mentioned that the red RTV was tapered in thickness. That should not be. It should have been very thin when squeezed by the trans / bellhousing mating.

On disassembling the trans (more on that later), the first strange thing was that the bearing was not bad, in spite of the way it looked. There was no unusual slop in the bearing of any kind. What was going on?

I am convinced that when the mechanic was putting things back together, after a clutch replacement, the throwout bearing support sleeve retaining ring fell out and was caught between the bell housing and transmission (thus the tapered RTV). That left the transmission mis aligned and gave the bearing space to work forward and backward resulting in the trans popping out of high.

Also, the broken retaining ring end was in the way of the bearing and chewed the oil slinger up, wrapping it around the bearing shaft snap ring (I was prying the remains of that away from the snap ring in that photo above so it could be removed). Along the way bits and pieces destroyed the bearing ball retainer too.

OK, that was one issue.

Moving on.  The front bearing, while actually good, because of the damaged ball retainer, needed to be changed. No problem….Wrong!

What should have been an easy disassembly turned out to be a really tough job.

As seen in the photos, the inside of Neil’s transmission was all “coked” up. “Coke” is the best way I can describe it. The coke was similar to what might be found in a combustion chamber and very, very, difficult to remove.  It looked like the trans had been a fire and the oil burned to a crisp. A really new one for me.

Neil and I spent the better part of 2 hours getting the various levers off the shift rails because of the “coke”. It should have taken a few minutes.

We, obviously, got everything apart and the good news is that other than the damaged bearing, everything looks perfect with no wear.

I have absolutely no explanation for that “coking”.

Now we have to put it back together.

 

 

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