Nick Galente

Valve Cage Removal

Recommended Posts

Hey, I'd have given a few bucks to have been there and seen that whole situation unfold.  And just where was Finn when this was all going on??  I'll bet he didn't offer up any help either.  We'll make an engineer out of you yet Brian.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Benefits of AACA Membership.

I don't know where to start, there have been so many interesting and helpful comments.  Thanks to Terry, I was able to have a set of cage nut removal tools made and they worked great.  I also have the "Buffum" valve cage removal tool, which is supposed to remove the whole assembly, valve, cage and spring in one shot.  However, since it's been probably forever since the cages were removed they are not budging.  The next step is to remove the spring and use the special nut that goes onto the valve stem and use the puler to pull it up that way.  Thank you very much for the "heads up" regarding not letting the valve drop into the cylinder.  With my luck, that definitely would have happened.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Nick Galente said:

To Don's point, the engine is still seized so that wouldn't work for me at this point.

Could the spark plug be removed and then fill the cylinder space with clothesline rope to take up the space between the piston and valves?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Terry Wiegand said:

Hey, I'd have given a few bucks to have been there and seen that whole situation unfold.  And just where was Finn when this was all going on??  I'll bet he didn't offer up any help either.  We'll make an engineer out of you yet Brian.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

 

Way before Mr. Finn was a member of the family, plus I would have had to cover his ears.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, DonMicheletti said:

If the piston were at TDC, wouldnt that have prevented the valve from completely dropping out?

 

Don,

 

There is not that much valve sticking out of the top of the guide and the distance from the valve to the top of the piston is about the same at TDC.  So it might just stick out at TDC or at least still be in the guide and maybe you could fish it back up with a strong pencil magnet.  Like most projects, I was not that lucky, I'd even bet my piston was at the bottom of the (very long) stroke. :P

 

20170321_180957.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Brian_Heil said:

 

Way before Mr. Finn was a member of the family, plus I would have had to cover his ears.

 

And for those wonder who the heck Mr. Finn is . . . .

 

He joined us this past year on the week long VMCCA Nickel Tour in Tennessee, the 1485 mile jaunt to the BCA National in Wisconsin including the PWD After Tour and our Lake Michigan circle tour home.  Plus most weekend outings.  Next to being no more than 2 feet from my wife, eating, I'd say Touring is #3 on his list.  He loves to 'go'.

 

 

-1b519834cd3a9b59.jpg

Edited by Brian_Heil
typo (see edit history)
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, JohnD1956 said:

Could the spark plug be removed and then fill the cylinder space with clothesline rope to take up the space between the piston and valves?

 

I suppose.

 

I'd prefer the positive / visual of the vice grip method mentioned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Nick Galente said:

I don't know where to start, there have been so many interesting and helpful comments.  Thanks to Terry, I was able to have a set of cage nut removal tools made and they worked great.  I also have the "Buffum" valve cage removal tool, which is supposed to remove the whole assembly, valve, cage and spring in one shot.  However, since it's been probably forever since the cages were removed they are not budging.  The next step is to remove the spring and use the special nut that goes onto the valve stem and use the puler to pull it up that way.  Thank you very much for the "heads up" regarding not letting the valve drop into the cylinder.  With my luck, that definitely would have happened.

 

Soak, soak some more.  Did I mention soak?  Ha.  You can do some light tapping like Don mentions.  I'd even put your 'solution of choice' down the valve stem bore too in hopes it might bleed over to where the cage seats/meets the head at the bottom of the cage bore in the head.  It may/will drip into the cylinder bore which is probably frozen too, a win/win..

 

Of all the rusted/stuck things I've worked on over the years, the toughest thing I've ever worked on is a stuck Buick valve cage.  Just ask Mark Shaw who pulled some for me that had been outside for decades.  Be patient.  Cursing helps.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Somehow I missed the fact that your engine was stuck. That does make it a bit more challenging.

 

I have pulled two 1918 Buick engines that had been sitting in the woods for near 50 years. No hoods.  Neither engine was stuck!  However the water pumps were rusted beyond description and once I cut the shafts and removed the pumps the engines would turn and with no stuck valves. On one engine 2 cylinders still had compression. Plus I had no trouble getting the cages out. I was very lucky.

After tearing one down, cleaning it and reassembling it with all the original parts - including rings, I ran it in my car while I worked on the cars original engine.

Yes, it did smoke.

I really feel sorry for the guys that have to fight tooth and nail on these things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, DonMicheletti said:

Somehow I missed the fact that your engine was stuck. That does make it a bit more challenging.

 

I have pulled two 1918 Buick engines that had been sitting in the woods for near 50 years. No hoods.  Neither engine was stuck!  However the water pumps were rusted beyond description and once I cut the shafts and removed the pumps the engines would turn and with no stuck valves. On one engine 2 cylinders still had compression. Plus I had no trouble getting the cages out. I was very lucky.

After tearing one down, cleaning it and reassembling it with all the original parts - including rings, I ran it in my car while I worked on the cars original engine.

Yes, it did smoke.

I really feel sorry for the guys that have to fight tooth and nail on these things.

 

Crazy lucky.  Buy me a lottery ticket next time you are out.  On second thought, don't, we'd never hear from you again.  $$$$

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello from across the pond.

I have had the same problem with my 1918 D45. I soaked the cage with a 50/50 mix of acetone and ATM, tried hitting the valve with a 5lb hammer and wooden pole from below, tried jacking the car up on the pole pushed up through the bore so the entire weight of the car was taken by the valve and cage and at the same time applied heat (having removed the ATM/acetone mix!) and attached a slide hammer to the valve stem - all at the same time and no luck. All this was taking place over a period of months and I was getting desperate. I finally called in a legendary fettler here in the UK (name supplied in personal communications) who had listened to my tale of woe over the months and eventually made a 200 mile round trip to visit me. He took his 5lb lump hammer and a steel drift and told me to look away... He then made several well aimed blows with the drift around the lip of the cage - driving it down the bore, subjecting the rust on the cage to a percussive sheering force . (Boy was I worried about my beautiful cast iron block...). He then reattached my slide hammer and within a few upward slides the cage started moving and came out within minutes. Genius! He fixed a problem in five minutes which had me baffled for 3 months or more...

His theory was that the counter intuitive blows to the rim of the cage transmitted the shock such that the rust which had effectively welded the cage to the block cracked thus releasing the cage. 

I needed to remove the cage because it had turned and had reduced the inlet orifice by about 50%. One of the other cages had spun around and completely blocked off the exhaust outlet to another cylinder, but happily that one moved easily. I found that the inlet cages had rusted, whereas the hotter exhaust cages were free.

Terry Wiegand knows this car because he helped the owner free the engine before he sold it to me. It is now running sweetly with new white metal bearings having had a knock in the engine.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hear you Nick.  As I said above, they are the Devil and the toughest stuck thing I have ever worked on.

 

I have also wondered if the sealing wedge washers act like a lock too?  Ringfeders are used for transmitting extreme torque.  Think of two cones, a male and a female with a very slight matching taper that are then clamped to connect and transmit torque.  They exceed the capacity of keys and splines and face flanges,  http://www.ringfeder.com/en/International/Products/RINGFEDER/   used on really big stuff.

 

I put a good coating of anti-seize paste on my cages and sealing rings and the bottom face of the nut when I rebuilt them and re-assembled.  Time will tell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have used the "counter intuitive" method of loosening rusted bolts too. Aftre soaking with acetone and ATF didnt work. Smack the head of the bolt a good blow with a heavy hammer. I have always been successful with that approach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nick, could you post a photo or two of the car for us.  Yes, indeed, Bob Cole's uncle bought the car new here in Hutchinson, Kansas from the Reno Buick Company.  The car was in the Cole family for over 98 years.  The engine had gotten moisture in it from a pressure washer getting too close to the engine compartment.  It stuck but not too bad and I and a friend got it freed back up.  The rebuilt carburetor really helped it run nicely.  I will let Bob and his son, David, know that the car is doing fine these days.  Larry DiBarry came up through Hutchinson from the Chickasha Swap Meet in March on his way back home and we put a couple of miles on it without any side curtains.  We like to have frozen our you know whats off.  It was still cold here in Doo Dah.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I pulled the cages out of the 1916 engine, I used one of those Buffum Cage Pullers like what has been shown on here.  They all came out with no problems whatsoever - except the very last cage on number 6 cylinder which is an exhaust valve.  That sucker was stuck and I mean stuck tight.  I filled the top of the cage counterbore with Marvel Mystery Oil.  I left a pull on the end of the stem from the puller and simply walked away from it.  I let it set overnight that way and when I came home from work the next day the MMO was gone.  I picked up the long box end wrench that I had been using and decided to give it a try.  I snuck up on the pull very cautiously and just kept increasing the pull until I was almost getting scared.  All of a sudden there was a bang that sounded almost like a shotgun going off.  I immediately thought - OH HOLY MOTHER OF GOD, WHAT DID I DESTROY!!  Did I crack the block, did I break the cage into small pieces?  After I got the courage to look things over, things looked OK from what I could see.  I went ahead and pulled the cage out.  It was OK.  I had it checked out later and it indeed was OK.  Talk about luck - and I'm not Irish.  I had heard and read about things like this, but this was the first experience like that for me.  It all comes down to patience and perseverance with these old engines.  I have a lot of photos of what I am doing.  When I get a little further along I am going to start posting them.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Terry Wiegand said:

When I pulled the cages out of the 1916 engine, I used one of those Buffum Cage Pullers like what has been shown on here.  They all came out with no problems whatsoever - except the very last cage on number 6 cylinder which is an exhaust valve.  That sucker was stuck and I mean stuck tight.  I filled the top of the cage counterbore with Marvel Mystery Oil.  I left a pull on the end of the stem from the puller and simply walked away from it.  I let it set overnight that way and when I came home from work the next day the MMO was gone.  I picked up the long box end wrench that I had been using and decided to give it a try.  I snuck up on the pull very cautiously and just kept increasing the pull until I was almost getting scared.  All of a sudden there was a bang that sounded almost like a shotgun going off.  I immediately thought - OH HOLY MOTHER OF GOD, WHAT DID I DESTROY!!  Did I crack the block, did I break the cage into small pieces?  After I got the courage to look things over, things looked OK from what I could see.  I went ahead and pulled the cage out.  It was OK.  I had it checked out later and it indeed was OK.  Talk about luck - and I'm not Irish.  I had heard and read about things like this, but this was the first experience like that for me.  It all comes down to patience and perseverance with these old engines.  I have a lot of photos of what I am doing.  When I get a little further along I am going to start posting them.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

 

That sounds about right.  It's the same when pulling a pitman arm, tie rod, pulley, etc.  It can be stuck tight as can be, but it lets go with a bang.  I've put a puller on something, cranked it down as tight as I could get it, then walked away.  Come back the next day, and it's apart.  I had one cut loose when I was across the room and it about scared the crap out of me -- I thought the car had fallen off the stands or something.  But generally speaking, going "against the grain" (first tightening a nut, knocking something in that you want to pull out, etc.) can be an effective way to break whatever's holding things together.  Heat, time, a healthy dose of your elixir of choice, and a BFH can be mighty persuasive on stuck parts.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/4/2018 at 7:49 AM, dibarlaw said:

save it along with the brake riveting and

when the brakes get replaced on a 1925 buick do u need a brake riveting machine ? kyle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/9/2018 at 1:24 AM, Terry Wiegand said:

Nick, could you post a photo or two of the car for us.  Yes, indeed, Bob Cole's uncle bought the car new here in Hutchinson, Kansas from the Reno Buick Company.  The car was in the Cole family for over 98 years.  The engine had gotten moisture in it from a pressure washer getting too close to the engine compartment.  It stuck but not too bad and I and a friend got it freed back up.  The rebuilt carburetor really helped it run nicely.  I will let Bob and his son, David, know that the car is doing fine these days.  Larry DiBarry came up through Hutchinson from the Chickasha Swap Meet in March on his way back home and we put a couple of miles on it without any side curtains.  We like to have frozen our you know whats off.  It was still cold here in Doo Dah.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

IMG_2154.JPG.ccf2ad8e8bd4ec2346b64d82cf0bfa5c.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, sligermachine said:

when the brakes get replaced on a 1925 buick do u need a brake riveting machine ? kyle

Kyle :

 When I re-did the horrible job they did on my 1925 Standard. They used steel split rivets ! DSCF1410.thumb.JPG.0eb3a4578e709047902e6eae1d1c7e2f.JPGDSCF1411.thumb.JPG.dd76151ad0392bbf6033f79a7736c94f.JPG

A happy thought of 20 or so steel teeth (on each wheel) tearing up your precious brake drums every time you applied the brakes. I tried to get them riveted locally with the correct brass tubular rivets.  No one near me would do the job. So I bought a bench mounted press. It still does not have enough "umph " to set them correctly. So I set up a staking arbor. I made a fixture for my drill press to do the drilling. It would be so much easier with the proper tool!

fi35.jpg.e9f157f018cc12e7dafaf4b0f2942428.jpgfi34.jpg.c227eb52a557b3b14dbe01581765a62f.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nick, that's a nice shot of the '18.  Just the way Larry and I remember it.  Thanks.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/8/2018 at 5:50 PM, Terry Wiegand said:

When I get a little further along I am going to start posting them.

 

Thats no fun arm chair help now that's fun but when it's done ? any way -Kyle 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now