Jump to content

Valve Cage Removal


Recommended Posts

Hello Larry, I was told you are the man to speak to regarding the special tool necessary to remove the valve cages from my 1922 model 22-45, 5 passenger touring  car.  Can you assist me with locating the tool?  It looks like there are two sizes.  I'm trying to unseize the engine.  I loaded it up with Kroil and it's been soaking for a couple of weeks now.  I wanted to remove the valves to possibly get a better look at the top of the pistons, which when I discovered I need this special tool.  Feel free to contact me any time at 914-325-1914.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I made this valve cage from scrap 3/4" square tubing and a long bolt. 

Remove the castellated cage retainer nut and spring assy.  

Liberally lube the cage vale with 50/50 ATF & Acetone for a day or more.

Remove the top nut & washer from the puller.

Insert the valve stem into the bottom hole, place the heavy top washer over the stem & replace the keeper.

Turn the lower nut to pull the cage assembly. 

Some valves may require just putting a strain on the puller for a day or more with more lube and/or heat.

 

 

Valve Cage Puller.JPG

Edited by Mark Shaw (see edit history)
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Nick Galente said:

Hello Larry, I was told you are the man to speak to regarding the special tool necessary to remove the valve cages from my 1922 model 22-45, 5 passenger touring  car.  Can you assist me with locating the tool?  It looks like there are two sizes.  I'm trying to unseize the engine.  I loaded it up with Kroil and it's been soaking for a couple of weeks now.  I wanted to remove the valves to possibly get a better look at the top of the pistons, which when I discovered I need this special tool.  Feel free to contact me any time at 914-325-1914.

 

Nick, 

 

Don't know if I am the Larry you are looking form but let me know some more information on your situation and please post pictures.  You should be able to call me.  I am in most of the car club directories or pm me and I will send you my number.

Edited by Larry Schramm (see edit history)
Link to post
Share on other sites

Nick,

  A word of caution regarding a stuck engine.  On my E 45, the water pump was rusted solid, preventing the engine from turning over.  I would recommend you verify , or remove the water pump shaft, before you try and force the engine to move.  If it is the pump that is locked up, you could end up damaging the timing gear forcing the engine to move.

 

 Glenn Manes

Wheatridge CO USA

Edited by Glenn Manes
spelling (see edit history)
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Glenn Manes said:

Nick,

  A word of caution regarding a stuck engine.  On my E 45, the water pump was rusted solid, preventing the engine from turning over.  I would recommend you verify , or remove the water pump shaft, before you try and force the engine to move.  If it is the pump that is locked up, you could end up damaging the timing gear forcing the engine to move.

 

 Glenn Manes

Wheatridge CO USA

Thanks Glen, I did think of that and it seems to be free, although the shaft is in rough shape.

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Mark Shaw said:

I made this valve cage from scrap 3/4" square tubing and a long bolt. 

Remove the castellated cage retainer nut and spring assy.  

Liberally lube the cage vale with 50/50 ATF & Acetone for a day or more.

Remove the top nut & washer from the puller.

Insert the valve stem into the bottom hole, place the heavy top washer over the stem & replace the keeper.

Turn the lower nut to pull the cage assembly. 

Some valves may require just putting a strain on the puller for a day or more with more lube and/or heat.

 

 

Valve Cage Puller.JPG

Thanks Mark, but I am looking for the tool to remove the castellated cage retainer nut.  Also, with respect to the 50/50 mixture what is ATF?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Don, I spoke with Nick the other evening and cautioned him about getting a hammer and punch anywhere near those cage nuts.  The top of the block in the water jacket area is pretty thin and beating on those nuts can be hazardous to the block casting.  I am posting some photos of the cage nut tools that I made just for the removal/installation procedure.  The two different sizes are needed for the engines from 1918 and on.  The intake valve increased in diameter beginning with the 1918 models.  There was a cage nut tool in the tool kit of every new Buick just for this purpose.  It only had two prongs to engage the slots.  I like to think that I improved the design a little bit by putting four prongs on it AND I used 4340 material for the toughness.  Anyone can do what I did here with a lathe and a milling machine.  The handles really do help with the nuts coming out and going back in.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

PA310093.JPG

PA310094.JPG

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I didnt say using a hammer and punch was good, just that it was done. On my well used '18, it is obvious the valve retainer nuts never saw a tool like yours for removal! They look hand forged - plenty of "character and patina".

The tool is better.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 months later...

Gearwrench makes a cage nut remover for modern cage nuts, in 4 sizes. Don't know which size to get. It's a handle with a yoked end, one side of the yoke is sharp for pushing, the other side has a hook for pulling. Push down on the tool with one hand and turn the handle with the other. Flip the tool over for tightening.

 

http://www.gearench.com/products/valve-cage-wrenches.asp

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Morgan Wright said:

Gearwrench makes a cage nut remover for modern cage nuts, in 4 sizes. Don't know which size to get. It's a handle with a yoked end, one side of the yoke is sharp for pushing, the other side has a hook for pulling. Push down on the tool with one hand and turn the handle with the other. Flip the tool over for tightening.

 

http://www.gearench.com/products/valve-cage-wrenches.asp

 

 

Will not remove the valve cage which was the inquiry of this thread.  Not sure the spanner wrench design that you talk about that there is enough room to even loosen the valve cage nut.

Edited by Larry Schramm (see edit history)
Link to post
Share on other sites

Penetrating Oils

 

Machinist's Workshop Magazine (March/April or May/June, 2007) actually tested penetrants for break out torque on rusted nuts. They arranged a subjective test of all the popular penetrants with the control being the torque required to remove the nut from a "scientifically rusted" environment.

*Penetrating oil ..... Average load*

None ..................... 516 pounds
WD-40 .................. 238 pounds
PB Blaster ............. 214 pounds
Liquid Wrench ..... 127 pounds
Kano Kroil ............ 106 pounds
ATF-Acetone mix....53 pounds

The ATF-Acetone mix was a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Note the "home brew" was better than any commercial product in this one particular test. Our local machinist group mixed up a batch, and we all now use it with equally good results. Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is about as good as "Kroil" for about 20% of the price.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

Will not remove the valve cage which was the inquiry of this thread.  Not sure the spanner wrench design that you talk about that there is enough room to even loosen the valve cage nut.

 

I'm with Larry S..  Before you buy that wrench make sure you can make it fit and that you can return it.  Very little room between nuts/springs to 'swing' that wrench and find one of the 4 flats at just the right location/angle to do so.

 

I spent weeks last Winter re-doing my cages/valves/springs/felt washers/keepers.  Those looking for valve cage info can search my posts.  Hope it helps.

 

Terry W. has the sweet set-up.  Short of that, I'm lucky to get my brass drift on one of the nut flats in the correct location/direction to tap it with a hammer.  Often you can get at it from one side and then have to jump over to the other side of the engine to get the next 'available' flat all the while making sure the cage and the 'bird hole' is not turning on you.

 

Truth be told, I'm not the first guy (or last) to 'tap' on those valve cage retaining nuts by the look of them on my car.  Terry sold (ok, nearly gave) me some new cage nuts.  They look like jewelry.  New seal washers too.  Museums, Tiffany's, Fort Knox . . . .  call me asking if I would loan them one for display. :P  "The Doo Dah Collection"

 

 

 

Edited by Brian_Heil
typo (see edit history)
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

And a COOL collection it is by the way.  New Year's Eve morning it was -9 degrees F.  New Year's Day morning it was -15 degrees F in Doo Dah.  We want you to know that that is damned cold here in Doo Dah.  Thanks for the kind words Brother Brian.  I have only been messing around with OLD Buicks for starting on 55 years yesterday.  As you say, it is all about friends, fun, and old Buicks.

 

Terry Wiegand

A COOOOLD Doo Dah

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The point is that in the time it takes to beat several nuts loose with a punch, you could probably make a simple tool that would loosen them more quickly, with much less damage, and serve you well for years to come (as Mark Shaw's father did).

Edited by MrEarl
Removed response to deleted post by MW and saved to mod file (see edit history)
Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the things that you have to understand is that on these old "used" cars, there were many mechanics who worked on them before us and that just wanted to "get er done". They were not going to waste their money on fancy tools when they already had something that would work.

Dont misunderstand me. I am just saying that we are looking at things differently now. We respect the cars more than when they were just transportation.

 

And, I do think that special wrenches are a good idea.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, DonMicheletti said:

One of the things that you have to understand is that on these old "used" cars, there were many mechanics who worked on them before us and that just wanted to "get er done". They were not going to waste their money on fancy tools when they already had something that would work.

Dont misunderstand me. I am just saying that we are looking at things differently now. We respect the cars more than when they were just transportation.

 

I hear that. :D  Like everyone else, I've been known to grab a BFH and something to hit with it when I didn't have the proper spanner at hand. These days, I'm more prone to taking the long view: if it's a job you're likely to repeat, the proper tool is often an investment in both efficacy and preservation.

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Mark Shaw said:

Crude but effective!

My father made this from a pipe nipple.  A deep socket would have been a better choice.

He drilled a hole through the upper end to use a big screw driver or a piece of bar stock for a handle.

Valve Cage Removal Tool.JPG

 

OK, pipe nipple is cheap and I may even have one or a hunk of pipe the correct diameter in my stash of pipe ends.  I could never bring myself to cut up an expensive, large, forged socket but the cheaper stamped sockets are an option too and take a ratchet drive.  I hereby promise to make a socket.  (Or borrow something close from Larry S. since he has lots of good stuff.  :P)

 

The good news is (knocking on wood) that I just went all through the valves/cages and won't need the socket soon.

 

I need to take a picture of my friend Ray Y.'s shop wall.  He must have 50 hammers hanging.  He had about 20 from his Dad that were a source of discussion and since then all his friends pick up additional ones at garage sales and drop them off and Ray hangs them up.  He's recently expanded to damaged hatchets and bent screw drivers and pry bars.  He has a wood mallet that is as big as a small keg.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Brian_Heil said:

I could never bring myself to cut up an expensive, large, forged socket but the cheaper stamped sockets are an option too and take a ratchet drive.  I hereby promise to make a socket.

 

That's why God invented Harbor Freight.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/31/2017 at 6:52 PM, Terry Wiegand said:

Don, I spoke with Nick the other evening and cautioned him about getting a hammer and punch anywhere near those cage nuts.  The top of the block in the water jacket area is pretty thin and beating on those nuts can be hazardous to the block casting.  I am posting some photos of the cage nut tools that I made just for the removal/installation procedure.  The two different sizes are needed for the engines from 1918 and on.  The intake valve increased in diameter beginning with the 1918 models.  There was a cage nut tool in the tool kit of every new Buick just for this purpose.  It only had two prongs to engage the slots.  I like to think that I improved the design a little bit by putting four prongs on it AND I used 4340 material for the toughness.  Anyone can do what I did here with a lathe and a milling machine.  The handles really do help with the nuts coming out and going back in.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

PA310093.JPG

PA310094.JPG

 

 

Which models had the cage nut tool in the tool kits?  I'm going through my catalogues and not finding them. I enclose 4 pics showing the tool kits for D, E, H/K, and 21, respectively:

 

 

P1040112.JPG

P1040113.JPG

P1040114.JPG

P1040115.JPG

Link to post
Share on other sites

You have raised a valid point here.  I have illustrated parts catalogs from 1915 thru 1923 (covering the caged-valve engine models) and running up through the late twenties.  In checking through them there is no photo or reference for a cage nut removal/installation tool as shown in my photos here.  The tool in the photos was in the storage area beneath the front seat cushion in the 1916 D-45 that my Dad bought in 1963.  One can see the numbers 34202 that are in the casting.  I have seen this tool in two other Buicks from this era over the years.  I know where you are going with this, so I will save you the time of asking the question.  I do not know the answer as to the why this item was not listed in the parts catalog(s).  The people who could answer for us have been gone for decades.  The person who did discuss this with me was the late Dave Chambers.  This man was the authority on Buicks up through the end of the 6-cylinder era.  The late Terry Dunham, who was a personal friend of mine, told me on many occasions that when the Buick Motor Company would get letters and calls asking about the old models, they would refer the questions to Dave.  I do remember Dave telling me that not everything was listed in the catalogs.  I think that there were some tools that were made available to owners on an aftermarket basis.  This quite possibly could be an example of that.  I have wondered about this for a long time.  There is a specific number 34201 in the catalogs.  I am out of answers as to how come and why about this particular situation.  Maybe if some of the retired GM folks are reading this, maybe they can offer something here.  The number on this part is just too close to the part numbers used by Buick in this time frame to not mean something.  I wish that I knew what it was.  I do feel so confident that Buick had a hand in this tool that I took the basic measurements from it and incorporated them into my two tools that I made.  This is everything that I can tell you now.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

P1030257.JPG

P1030258.JPG

P1030259.JPG

P1030260.JPG

Link to post
Share on other sites

The valve cage nut would not have been a consumer used tool.  That is why it is not listed in the owners list of tools.

 

It would be a "special" tool that the dealer would buy or be required to buy.

 

Same practice that has been going on forever between the manufacturer and the dealers.  The manufacturers want to be sure that the dealer can properly service customers vehicles and have tools shipped to dealers every year.  The dealers are invoiced for the tools.  Buying the tools is a requirement and part of the sales and service agreement.

Edited by Larry Schramm (see edit history)
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Going through the Shop Manuals of the time there are many references to... "NOTE"-These tools are Shown in The Buick Tool Catalog.

 Does anyone have a copy of one of these scarce books? I remember the Wood Special Buick tool panel (with a 1930s-1950s style logo) and all the special tools listed getting thrown out at Pizzica Buick in 1977. I wish I had the fore thought to save it along with the brake riveting and valve grinding machines. Also a nice 1940s AC spark plug service center went to the dump.

Larry

Link to post
Share on other sites

Mr. Wright has provided photographic evidence of tools that were used on Buicks that probably all of us never knew even existed.  Thanks for posting this.  I have been around caged-valve Buicks for starting on 55 years and I never ever heard of this company let alone the tool for removing the cage nuts.  Unbelievable is the word that comes to mind here.  I am posting some photos of my Buick Service Tools catalogs.  Maybe these are what Larry was referring to.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas 

P1040261.JPG

P1040263.JPG

P1040266.JPG

P1040267.JPG

P1040268.JPG

P1040269.JPG

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

One more thing to point out here.  In the next to last photo above, the B29-Valve Cage Nut Wrench, in the description of the tool it states that the use of a drift on the cage nut is not desirable.  I guess the engineers even knew some things way back then.  Definitely interesting.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Terry Wiegand said:

Mr. Wright has provided photographic evidence of tools that were used on Buicks that probably all of us never knew even existed.  Thanks for posting this.  I have been around caged-valve Buicks for starting on 55 years and I never ever heard of this company let alone the tool for removing the cage nuts.  Unbelievable is the word that comes to mind here.  I am posting some photos of my Buick Service Tools catalogs.  Maybe these are what Larry was referring to.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas 

P1040261.JPG

P1040263.JPG

P1040266.JPG

P1040267.JPG

P1040268.JPG

P1040269.JPG

 

Never seen these.  Thanks for sharing Terry!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...