Dipping a Toe in the Water - sixties sedans

[Frank DuVal]

Oh where to start....

 

The Corvair, if original drivetrain, would be a 102 (not 110 hp) because of the crossed flags on the engine lid, and it is a 63 model (64 starts 110 production). Yes, it is a Powerglide, the only automatic transmission offered in a Corvair.

 

Some people complain about the "slow Powerglide", but when properly tuned, a PG equipped same horsepower engine in a Corvair will keep up with a 4 speed version. This is in part due to the typical manual transmission Corvair came with 3.27 ratio rear, and the PG equipped ones came with 3.55 ratio rear. Yes, there are manuals with 3.55, Corsa and Spyder models, and very early cars had 3.89 rears (and only 140 cu in engines). What is missing in performance with a Powerglide is the neck snapping dump the clutch effect, the Powerglide acceleration is smoootthh. You can get a 140 HP engine with a Powerglide, best of both worlds, in 65 to 69 models.

 

Plus, 3 and 4 speed Corvairs will need clutch, pressure plate and flywheel (rivets get loose and need replacing) at some point in their life, whereas the Powerglides are mostly still running after 50 years and umpteen thousand miles on them! 

 

All the technical help you ever need for a Corvair is available from local clubs or corvaircenter.com forum if no local club is around. Easy cars to maintain yourself. Lots of pre-purchase advice is available there also, and I suggest you take advantage of it.

 

And on the subject of Powerglides in big cars not being "quick", The Powerglide is STILL used in drag racing!      I think that proves they are quick!

 

Also, Dynaflows are not two speed transmissions. Yes, they have a Low gear set, but it has to be driver selected with the shift lever. In D, the variable pitch blades in the turbine do the torque multiplying. It never shifts gears. The ultimate smmmoooootttthhhh transmission. Also, since the "passing gear" is a mechanical linkage to the vanes, you get passing gear in Low and Reverse!

 

Anybody driving in the city where streets become viaducts in heavy downpours (flash flooding) knows the feeling of pressing on the brake pedal and not slowing down. Gets your attention real quick! We were taught to apply the brakes gently as soon as we drove through heavy water to dry the drum brakes out. 

 

 

 

 

[Guest SaddleRider]

12 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

I used to be a GM fan. They had to drive me away and force me to stop buying their cars by producing overpriced unreliable junk. The rot really set in around 1968 and lasted well into the 80s. Then they worked their way up to being mediocre, with a few hair raising exceptions.

 

Yes, Rusty...I agree completely - I should have qualified my suggestion to stick with pre '68 General Motors products...

[John_S_in_Penna]

Just to balance the conversation for Mr. Grape,

I'll say I have seen no unusual problems with

General Motors cars after 1968.  I like them up

through the 1970's, and even beyond.  

 

If anyone wants to do further research, look at

Consumer Reports' automotive issues, which were

published in the spring of every year, April or May.

Based on actual experiences of thousands of subscribers,

they show which models (of any make) were good and which

not so good.  Thus, they go well beyond my anecdotal evidence

or that of others. 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

18 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

Oh where to start....

 

The Corvair, if original drivetrain, would be a 102 (not 110 hp) because of the crossed flags on the engine lid, and it is a 63 model (64 starts 110 production). Yes, it is a Powerglide, the only automatic transmission offered in a Corvair.

 

Some people complain about the "slow Powerglide", but when properly tuned, a PG equipped same horsepower engine in a Corvair will keep up with a 4 speed version. This is in part due to the typical manual transmission Corvair came with 3.27 ratio rear, and the PG equipped ones came with 3.55 ratio rear. Yes, there are manuals with 3.55, Corsa and Spyder models, and very early cars had 3.89 rears (and only 140 cu in engines). What is missing in performance with a Powerglide is the neck snapping dump the clutch effect, the Powerglide acceleration is smoootthh. You can get a 140 HP engine with a Powerglide, best of both worlds, in 65 to 69 models.

 

Plus, 3 and 4 speed Corvairs will need clutch, pressure plate and flywheel (rivets get loose and need replacing) at some point in their life, whereas the Powerglides are mostly still running after 50 years and umpteen thousand miles on them! 

 

All the technical help you ever need for a Corvair is available from local clubs or corvaircenter.com forum if no local club is around. Easy cars to maintain yourself. Lots of pre-purchase advice is available there also, and I suggest you take advantage of it.

 

And on the subject of Powerglides in big cars not being "quick", The Powerglide is STILL used in drag racing!      I think that proves they are quick!

 

Also, Dynaflows are not two speed transmissions. Yes, they have a Low gear set, but it has to be driver selected with the shift lever. In D, the variable pitch blades in the turbine do the torque multiplying. It never shifts gears. The ultimate smmmoooootttthhhh transmission. Also, since the "passing gear" is a mechanical linkage to the vanes, you get passing gear in Low and Reverse!

 

Anybody driving in the city where streets become viaducts in heavy downpours (flash flooding) knows the feeling of pressing on the brake pedal and not slowing down. Gets your attention real quick! We were taught to apply the brakes gently as soon as we drove through heavy water to dry the drum brakes out. 

 

 

 

 

 

  Well said

 

  Ben

[victorialynn2]

22 hours ago, padgett said:

Just as a point, one of my first cars, a 1959, had a 6 and 4 wheel disks. Agree, once you know to ride drums after a deep puddle (or not so deep in some of the frog stranglers we get here - 55" annually) there is not a problem. Once you know... Also had a 61 Caddy 'vert that completely faded the brakes out in one cfast but modulated stop from 70 - with some cars you were better of just locking em up and letting it slide - never fade that way.

 

ps Corvairs: have had a gaggle from a 140 Corsa to 110 powerslide Monza 'vert to a Fitch Sprint with a turbo. 60-63 are not what you want to be in during a violent maneuver. These are the ones Nader wrote about and, like a Fiero, it is easy to get a rear wheel in the air. 64 added a camber compensator which helped a lot but the 65 redesign was not only  lots better and had a real IRS like the Corvette. Later ones are much easier to handle and Clark's has every part imaginable. I suspect you could build a whole car from their catalog. Is kind of a cult car, seats four, and a Corsa 140 is as near ideal as you can get, won a lot of autocrosses with a 'vert. Rust particularly in the rockers can be a real problem.

Padget, my 57 currently has drum brakes. Can you explain what to do to avoid fade and also what happens when they get wet to me? I’m not following. I have had issues with it veering sharply to the right if I stomp on them at high speeds. I keep lots of distance for this reason and apply them gently, but in fast, city traffic it’s pretty darn scary. Plan to change them to disc ASAP. 

 

Also, I believe the 63 Spyders and possibly all Spyders came with the camber compensator and they are available, so some cars have been fitted with them. 

Edited November 3, 2017 by victorialynn2 (see edit history)

[Guest SaddleRider]

I am disappointed to see the above posts in which the writers discuss how bad their brakes are.   I have owned a number of "drum" brake vehicles of all sizes, years & weights down thru the years.....; some folks say I am quite a "squirrel" with my vehicles, meaning I drive the heck out of them.

 

It is true that the first "internal expanding" type brakes,  which were "mechanical" up to the early-mid 1930's,   could "pull" to one side or another if not properly adjusted.   If we were discussing mechanical drum brakes, that's a whole separate issue.

 

 But here, these folks are talking about later hydraulic brake equipped vehicles.

 

Yes - it is POSSIBLE to get a  modern  ( meaning post mid 1930's hydraulic-equipped ) drum-brake vehicle to pull sharply one way or the other.  Requires a combination of really poor maintainance and lack of a basic understanding of how brakes work.

 

Yes, I "get it"...these days it is getting harder and harder to find a mechanic who has a clue how to actually fix things.  I do sympathize for those who cannot do their own  brake-work with some degree of competence, AND are unable to find a shop where the mechanics go beyond plugging in an OBD II "reader".

 

Be assured that all American cars ( at least the ones I've  worked on & driven....I've probably in my 77 years  become aquainted with most every make & model)  built since the introduction of four wheel brakes will make at least one extreme speed stop in a straight line.  Again, that is assuming the vehicle has been properly maintained.

 

Those of you who have suffered incompetent maintainence are in error in assuming that is the way your used car was when in service.

[victorialynn2]

@SaddleRider, I inherited my ‘57 Ford and the brakes have been worked on and are better than they were. My mechanic suggests changing to discs due to issues finding some of the parts to fix them and also they work better in general. With brakes and tires, I am willing to do what I can to make the car as safe as possible. I replaced the bias tires also. The rotors were turned as much as they can be. I always was under the impression that by design, drum brakes tend to fade on hills and other situations and just aren’t as reliable as disc brakes? 

[Rusty_OToole]

45 minutes ago, victorialynn2 said:

Padget, my 57 currently has drum brakes. Can you explain what to do to avoid fade and also what happens when they get wet to me? I’m not following. I have had issues with it veering sharply to the right if I stomp on them at high speeds. I keep lots of distance for this reason and apply them gently, but in fast, city traffic it’s pretty darn scary. Plan to change them to disc ASAP. 

 

Also, I believe the 63 Spyders and possibly all Spyders came with the camber compensator and they are available, so some cars have been fitted with them. 

The veering sharply is a sign your brakes are defective. Either one side is not working or the other side is working too well, in other words grabby due to being soaked in brake fluid or grease.

 

This sort of thing is common. People drive around on shitty worn out drum brakes, that have not been properly serviced or adjusted in years, and wonder why they don't work right. O I guess drum brakes are no good. Well they would be if they were new and adjusted to factory specs. It is not that difficult to rebuild drum brakes and usually cheaper than converting to discs.

 

One problem is the asbestos free linings you get today, they do not have the friction qualities of the OEM brake linings.

 

Good working drum brakes should feel no different from discs. The car will stop fine in normal circumstances. The most any brakes can do is lock up and skid the tires, and they should do that.

 

The problem is heat. Drum brakes are prone to fade and become ineffective if they get too hot. Example, ride the brake pedal down a long hill and by the time you get to the bottom you have no brakes. Another example, multiple panic stops in meat axey traffic can fade the brakes if the come too quickly in succession.

 

Solution, don't ride the brakes down hill. Put the transmission in a lower gear, the same gear you would use to climb the hill and go down the same speed you would go up. If you need to slow down apply the brakes sharpish and pull your speed down quickly. Then allow it to slowly build up again. If necessary pull over and let everything cool down. If you want an example of when this might be necessary watch The Long Long Trailer with Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz. The scene where they climb the mountain, is the kind of grade I am talking about.

 

Also avoid bad traffic. If you choose to use your antique car in brutal rush hour traffic you are asking for it. Take the slower route and stay off the interstate when it is crazy busy.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[cahartley]

47 minutes ago, victorialynn2 said:

@SaddleRider, I inherited my ‘57 Ford and the brakes have been worked on and are better than they were. My mechanic suggests changing to discs due to issues finding some of the parts to fix them and also they work better in general. With brakes and tires, I am willing to do what I can to make the car as safe as possible. I replaced the bias tires also. The rotors were turned as much as they can be. I always was under the impression that by design, drum brakes tend to fade on hills and other situations and just aren’t as reliable as disc brakes? 

 

I think you need a different mechanic.

Go to www.rockauto.com and you'll find 1/2 of everything your car needs.

My '59 Chevy weighs nearly 3800 pounds and I have no lack of confidence in the drum brakes (which were TOTALLY redone by the way).

 

As for wet drum brakes it's hitting the brakes and "not much" happens so you slow down and lightly step on the brakes so they heat and evaporate the water.

For the record I experienced that ONCE in 50 years.

 

[padgett]

Know Powerglides are common in drag cars, mostly big block with boost or nitrous and 1/8 mile, problem is traction, not ratios and transbrakes are relatively easy to add (lock first and reverse together, can release reverse instantly). Those units also have very high stall speeds, not anything you would want to have on the street. Keep in mind that back in the 60s a ten second 0-60 was pretty good and tires were the limiting factor.

 

Never said a 63 couldn't have a camber compensator added, was right up there with quick ratio steering arms and short throw shifters as mods. Heck the best 140 I had was equipped with a single quadrajet on a spider intake and trombones (Clark's may still have them), just the factory added them in '64.

 

BTW said I grew up where 55" of rain a year was average and 10" in a weekend not uncommon. Learned the value of disks in the early 60s. Mentioned there were some better than average drum brakes, had a 63 split window with drums that had little fans in them and a '67 GP 'vert with 8 lugs but were not common.

[Frantz]

9 hours ago, victorialynn2 said:

@SaddleRider, I inherited my ‘57 Ford and the brakes have been worked on and are better than they were. My mechanic suggests changing to discs due to issues finding some of the parts to fix them and also they work better in general. With brakes and tires, I am willing to do what I can to make the car as safe as possible. I replaced the bias tires also. The rotors were turned as much as they can be. I always was under the impression that by design, drum brakes tend to fade on hills and other situations and just aren’t as reliable as disc brakes? 

 

I think on your dad's cars any sort of conversion would really hurt their value or at least speed of sale. Tires are easy to swap back to proper bias so if you prefer radials that's fine. I for one don't like buying cars that have been modified for unnecessary reasons because it suggests the owner had mechanical issues they didn't know how to resolve, so they did a quick "easier" fix. Then I'm left to wonder how well they did the quick fix and what other things were done poorly or wrong. Drum brakes work fine and if you're not doing an SCCA road course with them then I find the safety argument to be a bit inadequate considering the type of driving folks do with antique autos.

I too remember my first puddle situation, but that car had front disks (and it was intentional puddling running because I was a kid). The disks came back quicker I'm sure. As others said, just gently squeeze the brakes to get the water out. If the OP has shifted from the daily driver thoughts at all, it may be a completely null issue at this point too.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I will go in a somewhat different direction here, lincoln 61 to 65, with the later ones bringing slightly less money.  A bit more complex but the sedans do not have the complexity, or cost to buy and maintain as the convertible models.  Only available in a sedan or convertible and a pretty popular car.  I think you could find a nice unit in the low teens and have something that is both a representation of the day as well as unique. 

 

Lincolns are not based a widly shared platform with minor style variances like some other choices.  The body is unique to the Lincoln lineup.  These cars have good parts availability and club support as well, and a ready market. 

 

Realistically the ability to sell later should be a consideration.   You may find that you are not as into it or that you love collecting and want to move up.  Sedans are cool. But reality is some take a while to move should you ever want to.  These are pretty popular models so selling would likely be less of a challenge. 

 

Put me in the camp that a good car doesn't need to be modified,  brakes or otherwise to use with sone basic care and understanding it's not a 2017 BMW and won't handle or stop like one.

 

Happy planning! 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

VL2. Before you go to disk I would go to a dual reservoir master cylinder if you don’t already have one  This will give you a little security if front or rear failure to still be able to stop. Pulling to one side is not a drum brake system problem it is an individual car brake system problem. I know from previous post you trust your mechanic, so talk to him and be sure he understands your problem and concerns. If he says the only way to fix is disk you may want to get another opinion just to be sure it is the best fix for the $ spent. 

The beast has much smaller drums and i believe is a heavier car. I try (other drivers don’t always allow) to leave a little more room so I can test apply the brakes before normal stops. Always be ready to grab the emergency brake and give it a good yank! 

They will stop the car if it is in working order. 

Disk are not necessarily better than drums if the drums are properly maintained and as others have said brake fade can be avoided if a little caution is used on hills and/or thru deep puddles. 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Yeah, given the safety benefits a pro converted dual master cylinder brings, I would get behind that for a car in semi regular use.  Stock on many of the later 60s cars, so it's something else to consider. 

[victorialynn2]

Guys, thanks for the info. I don’t want to take over this thread so I won’t comment here further. I will discuss it with my mechanic. Ty!