1943-54 Chrysler Windsor 6

[alsfarms]

Does the Chrysler 265 CID 6 interchange with any of the earlier flat head 6 engines, Dodge, DeSoto, Plymouth?

Al

[plymouthcranbrook]

Block length is different from the smaller ones. 23 inch long vs 25 inch long for one.  

[keithb7]

I have limited experience, however the 265 is a 25" engine. I do own a 1953 Windsor 6, 265. 

 

 I also know of a 25" 218 engine that were in smaller Mopar cars. Like found in a Dodge 6, or Special Deluxe. These engines may have been made in Canada only. Shorter stroke I believe.

I was informed that a Windsor with a smaller displacement engine in it, will be pretty slow. The Windsor is big, and heavy, the 265 is a good fit.

[alsfarms]

I understood that a difference in length exists, but as to interchange, are the motor mount positions in different locations?  How about the clutch, bell housing and transmissions?

Al

[plymouthcranbrook]

Take a look here: http://p15-d24.com/  Valuable resources and knowledgeable people. 

[Rusty_OToole]

Short answer: It will interchange with earlier DeSoto/Chrysler sixes back to 1937 or 38  and can be used in Plymouth/Dodge cars and light trucks with a few modifications .

Chrysler corp made 2 different flathead sixes for cars and light trucks, 1938 - 59 (and up to 1972 in some truck and industrial apps).

 

There was one block, that measured 23 1/2" at the head, it was used in Plymouth, Dodge, and Dodge trucks. Then they made a larger engine for DeSoto, Chrysler and some large Dodge trucks and military Power Wagons  that measured 25" at the head.

 

The smaller block was commonly found in displacements of 201, 217, and 230 cubic inch. The bigger block was usually seen in 237, 251 and 265 sizes although they also made a 228 and 241 prewar. The 265 is the largest displacement version and is rather rare as it was only used for 3 years in Chrysler Windsors and in a few industrial and marine applications. The 4 3/4" stroke crankshaft required special bolts for clearance and is the biggest crankshaft that will fit. But it will fit in any of the larger blocks if you use the accompanying connecting rods.

 

The bigger block engine will fit in Plymouth and Dodge cars, in fact some have the frame drilled for the motor mount bolts. In addition to different motor mounts the radiator must be moved forward.

 

Canadian Plymouth and Dodge cars used a special small bore version of the big DeSoto/Chrysler block from 1938 up. The Canadian foundry was only equipped to make one engine, and they rang the changes on bore and stroke to get engines of the same displacement as their American counterparts. Therefore the big engine is a direct bolt in to most Canadian made 1938 - 59 Plymouth and Dodge sixes, with the possible exception of 1953 HyDrive models that had a unique engine block. This block may have been shared with Fluid Torque Drive 1953 DeSoto and Chrysler models.

 

The bigger engine was made in 3 3/8 and 3 7/16 bore sizes, and there were several crankshafts of different strokes. The smaller Plymouth/Dodge block was usually 3 1/4 bore with displacement adjustment by using different crankshafts. In every case pistons will interchange between different size engines that have the same bore, but crankshafts must use the matching connecting rods. The rods vary in length depending on crankshaft stroke. In other words you can turn a Plymouth or Dodge 217 into a 230 just by changing the crank and rods. Likewise with the DeSoto/Chrysler 237, 251 and 265.

 

One thing to look at on early 30s cars is the water jackets. Up to about 1936 they had partial water jackets that only covered the upper half of the cylinders. In 1937 or 38 they made the water jackets full length. This required moving the starter over for clearance. This prevents the later engine from being directly interchangeable. You can easily see the difference with a glance at the engine block. The relocated starter required a different starter, flywheel and bellhousing.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

Are you asking out of curiosity or do you have a swap in mind? Could you tell us what it is, or should I just describe every possible combination and permutation of American and Canadian cars, trucks and Power Wagons from the 1920s to 1968?

[alsfarms]

Hello Rusty and thanks for your response.  I will send you a PM.

Al

[c49er]

Must be a secret swap.

[alsfarms]

No secret swap...but that would be nice.  I am just trying to figure out the best way to build an engine for a 1934 Chrysler product.

Al

[c49er]

A 265 would be the good way.

[Rusty_OToole]

A 265 would work great if you can find one. They have a distinctive tower like oil filter on the left, next to the starter. This is a desirable full flow filter. Earlier Chrysler/DeSoto engines had a full flow filter but it was remote, with separate lines. The lines are almost as thick as your finger. The partial flow or bypass filter has smaller lines, more the size of a pencil. The full flow filter is nice to have but not a deal breaker. Engine life and wear are alike either way.

 

The 251 is a lot easier to find, as it was used in so many DeSoto and Chrysler cars.

 

A good 230 Plymouth/Dodge could work for you, and they are easier to find, and smaller. They have an advantage that the 1956 - 59 models were 12 volt and have the improved starter and flywheel.

 

When looking for an engine go by the serial number on the block, on the front left side just below the head. It will start with P for Plymouth, D for Dodge, T for Dodge truck,  S for DeSoto or C for Chrysler. Or maybe IND for an industrial engine. Many truck engines just had a 3 number ID code, no letters.

 

Some IDs to look for - C60, C62 - Chrysler 265  C51-265 in 52 Windsor Deluxe only. C51- 251 in all other Windsors. C51, C48 - 251 C38, C45 - 251. These are all the postwar Chrysler sixes.

 

S20, S18, S15 - DeSoto 251. S11, S13 - 237 DeSoto. These are the postwar DeSotos.

 

Dodge D24 to D53 - 230 engine, six volt equipped. D62, D72, LD1-L, LD2-L -230 engine, 12 volt. Postwar Dodges

 

Plymouth  1954 up had the 230 engine. P25 P26 P28 six volt. P30, LP1,LP2 230 engine 12 volt. Previous Plymouths had a 217 engine.

[alsfarms]

Do any differences exist, in the head, block, manifolds, bell housing, flywheel that would make interchange of an automobile engine with an industrial version of the Chrysler 265?

Al

[Rusty_OToole]

The Plymouth/Dodge 217 - 230 is a completely different animal than the big DeSoto/Chrysler 247 - 251 - 265. But within each family, almost everything will interchange.

 

They did change the water pump design about 1950 to incorporate an extra water passage on the front of the engine. This requires a different head gasket, and is easy to spot. I think this was just the smaller engine.

 

They also made a change to the starter interface in the mid fifties possibly to do with changing to 12 volt. The starter was moved back by 3/8 of an inch so they won't interchange. You must use matching flywheel and starter. This is not a problem you run into unless you try swapping a lot of random parts together.

 

There were changes made every year but in almost every case the old and new parts interchange.

 

I don't know of any difference in industrial engines that would prevent them being put in a car. They may have used a different exhaust manifold, intake, etc but these are superficial and easy to change.

 

The one internal difference was the camshaft. Most IND engines came with a chain driven cam but they did make some with gear driven cams. This makes no difference as long as you use the cam with the appropriate drive.  If you wanted to change from gear to chain, you would have to swap the camshaft, and chain drive sprockets onto your engine.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

The IND 265 engine I am looking into has a front drive for a hydraulic pump, as I recall on the right side of engine.  I guess that could be used to figure out a supercharger drive if needed or wanted.  What are your thoughts?  I suppose these engines were low enough compression that running a blower would not hurt them?

Alan

Edited November 2, 2017 by alsfarms
spelling (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

For certain technical reasons a flathead engine lends itself well to supercharging. Low compression is one. The fact that they are tuned for low speed and mid range, and run out of puff at high RPMs is another.

 

Chrysler built engines of that era had good cooling systems and full pressure oiling to insert bearings unlike the engines in Ford and Chevrolet. They are strongly built and can stand supercharging easily.

 

Keep an eye on Craigslist ads and similar, for a Paxton supercharger. A lot of them were used on Mustangs and Camaros and used ones turn up from time to time. They are an updated version of the old McCulloch VS57 and work well on engines of under 350 cu in.

 

There are 2 ways to go, a conventional hop up or the supercharger. Each will give about the same increase in power. McCulloch claimed 40% at the rear wheels. But hop up parts are scarce and expensive,  The supercharger may well be easier and cheaper, and doesn't harm the idle and low speed characteristics of the engine.

 

Of course the supercharger, or hop up is mainly for laughs. If you seriously wanted more HP you would just put in a V8.

[Rusty_OToole]

Read this if you want to know what a 251 or 265 is capable of. First hand report of 185,000 miles driving a 51 DeSoto 8 passenger sedan. My favorite part 'at 70MPH at high altitude the engine smooths out like a perfectly balanced turbine'. This in a 6000 pound limousine with 4:11 gears and over 100,000 miles on it.

 

https://www.allpar.com/cars/desoto/suburban-1951.html

[Spinneyhill]

Would the camshaft profile be the same on an industrial engine and a road-going engine? I would have thought an industrial engine would be set up to run at constant (near full) throttle?

Edited November 2, 2017 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[keithb7]

My understanding is there are many, many camshaft profiles for these Mopar Flat 6 engines. In that mix are many cam profiles for just industrial engines. The industrial engine were used in so many applications. Depending on where the engine is used it will be set to make a certain torque at a certain RPM. Different cam profiles are custom ground for the engine application.

 

For example, my 1953 Chrysler Windsor has about 4,000 lb curb weight. A tug for pulling around luggage trailers on an airport runway weights in a lot less. I suspect these would have very different torque curves. 

[countrytravler]

George Asche has on in his 1930 Desoto roadster. He is very knowledgeable. 

He is 80 plus and has owned his car 50 plus years. He knows and hipo builds these engines inside and out. He is the GURU of the flat head.

George 814-354-2621 PA.

He can advise and build an OD for your combo.

Good luck with the build and keep us posted.

Here is George with a flat 6 in a rail.

 

[alsfarms]

Nice posting.....

Al

[countrytravler]

The Montana 4 Boys in Montana that built the 140 plus MPH 4 cyl 1926 Dodge Salt Flat car can hook you up also with hipo parts

 They are working hand and hand with Edge Motor parts.

[alsfarms]

I will have the  above mentioned 265 home, thanks to affordable Fastenal shipping, in about a week.  The first thing I need to address is the bell-housing/flywheel.  I am guessing that this IND 265 has a standard SAE #1 bell-housing.  What are the thoughts, easier to build and adapter plate and simply use what I have or would I be better off finding a donor from a military truck of DeSoto (bell-housing and flywheel).  This IND 265 certainly is a 12 volt so I would need compatible parts.  Help, hints and referrals to potential parts is appreciated.  Rusty you suggest a supercharger for giggles, how is the Paxton style driven? belt?

Al

[Rusty_OToole]

This engine does not have a conventional bellhousing interface. There is a flat steel plate that bolts on the back of the block to accept the bellhousing. You could use practically any bellhousing by making a plain steel plate with the appropriate bolt holes drilled in it. The stock plate will accept a Plymouth or Dodge manual trans bellhousing or the Fluid Drive system bellhousing.

 

The Paxton supercharger is driven by belt. The earlier models had a complicated variable speed belt drive changed to a single speed drive in the early sixties. If you can pick up a used setup off a Mustang I believe they had a flat belt drive. This would be the best most modern setup. You would still have to make up pulleys, mounting plates etc and figure out carburetion and ignition. A fairly advanced proceedure. Could be a fun project once you get your car running and on the road.

 

If you want to get into the technical gook.... the Paxton gives about 5 pounds boost. Since atmospheric pressure at sea level is 14.3 pounds a 5 pound boost will over fill your cylinders by about 1/3.

 

So take your compression ratio and add 1/3. If your compression is 7:1, typical of fifties flatheads, your effective compression at full boost becomes 9.31:1. This is about what modern high compression engines use, and about right for hi test pump gas of 92 octane.

 

Another rule regarding fuel octane is, your octane rating should look like your compression ratio. This is not a hard and fast rule, just a guide. In other words your 7:1 compression flathead came from an age of 70 octane gas, today's cars have 8.5:1 and take 87 octane regular, in the sixties you could buy 10:1 compression performance cars that called for  103 octane Blue Sunoco etc.

[alsfarms]

Rusty,  Could you post a picture of what one of these Mustang superchargers look like?  I have been looking at an Eaton design from a Buick 3.8 as a possible unit also, I am more familiar with the Eaton design.  Just to make sure I am fully thinking correctly regarding the bell housings.  The back plate, on the 265 (25") will mount a 23" Plymouth or Dodge bell housing?  What would I need to watch out for regarding the interchange of flywheels.  I am certain the back mounting plate on my IND 265 has the proper position for a 12 volt starter.  I am used to thinking GM (Chevrolet) interchangeability and NEW to Chrysler products.  (Hope I don't get thrown off this Chrysler forum for mentioning Chev.)   :-) 

Al

[Rusty_OToole]

Have not done the swap myself but to my knowledge Plym Dodge and Chrysler six bellhousings will fit. They do vary over the years. There is one case where the starter position is 3/8" out of line with the flywheel if you mix different starters and flywheels. Not sure why this is. If you have matching 12v starter and flywheel you are in luck.

 

Some flywheels have only 4 bolts, the bigger engines have 6 or 8. They will interchange anyway.

 

This is a place where the P15D24 guys could be a lot more helpful. They have a lot more first hand knowledge than I do.

 

Here is some info from the Paxton web site. Second pic from the top shows the older Mustang installation. They still make this supercharger or one similar but they cost over $2000 for a bare supercharger. They turn up on Craigslist and Kijiji for $500 or less from time to time.

http://www.paxtonauto.com/article.php?id=3

 

Nothing wrong with the Eaton and there are still quite a few around. Maybe not as easy to install but should work well as they were made for an engine of similar size. Remember the old flathead does not have the breathing capacity, or ability to rev of a modern engine. Therefore it acts like a smaller engine as far as the supercharger is concerned.

 

[alsfarms]

I am getting a few responses from the other P-D forums.  I hope to be able to learn enough to actually not be dangerous as I come together with the 265 project.

Al

[alsfarms]

How many of the Chrysler product 6 engines are 7 main engines?  I have never had one open.

Al

[c49er]

On 11/21/2017 at 6:54 AM, alsfarms said:

I will have the  above mentioned 265 home, thanks to affordable Fastenal shipping, in about a week.  The first thing I need to address is the bell-housing/flywheel.  I am guessing that this IND 265 has a standard SAE #1 bell-housing.  What are the thoughts, easier to build and adapter plate and simply use what I have or would I be better off finding a donor from a military truck of DeSoto (bell-housing and flywheel).  This IND 265 certainly is a 12 volt so I would need compatible parts.  Help, hints and referrals to potential parts is appreciated.  Rusty you suggest a supercharger for giggles, how is the Paxton style driven? belt?

Al

I would guess that your 265 does not use a SAE # 1 bell housing.... more like a #4 or 5.

I have a 413 dodge truck flathead... it uses a #3 bell housing with a 13 " clutch/ flywheel combination. Using a Clark 290 5 speed transmission.

The 265 would be quite a bit smaller.

[alsfarms]

I thought I had the number system down, well I did but I had them backwards.  I thought SAE #1 was the smaller, however the bigger the number the small the housing.  Thanks for correcting me.  Is your 413 the same size block as the 336?

Al

[Rusty_OToole]

1 hour ago, alsfarms said:

How many of the Chrysler product 6 engines are 7 main engines?  I have never had one open.

Al

They all have 4 mains, even the slant six and the latest V6. Chrysler flathead engines are very simple straight forward designs. They are made of the best materials available at the time and had features like insert bearings, full pressure lubrication and full flow oil filters 10 to 20 years before some of their competitors. Don't worry about the crankshaft or bearings.

[c49er]

49 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

I thought I had the number system down, well I did but I had them backwards.  I thought SAE #1 was the smaller, however the bigger the number the small the housing.  Thanks for correcting me.  Is your 413 the same size block as the 336?

Al

The BIG moly block seven main bearing  truck engines  were produced in several displacements from 281ci to the 413ci.

All were 3" main bearings.. This 3-4 ton truck engine originated from the very early Chrysler Imperial  310 ci engine.

The 413 engines are basically the same as  331 dodge but use have factory dual carbs and dual exhaust and larger rod bearings.

Dodge didn't make a 336 ci flathead...they made a 281,306,331, 377 and last was the 413.

Edited November 23, 2017 by c49er (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

attached is a picture of the 265 project engine.   What does the belt drive that is located just under the alternator?

Al

[Rusty_OToole]

I don't know, one of us should look at the front of the engine and see. You are closer than we are.

 

I have my doubts about that being a 265 because of the lack of an oil filter. What is the length of the head? What is the serial number?

Edited November 24, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Hello Rusty,  When the engine gets into my possession, I will certainly be able to get some better pictures.  On the stamped block for identification it lists IND 265.  It does have provisions for the 8 bolt flywheel.  These Chrysler 6 engines are a better design than the Chev's. for sure.  I wonder how they will compare to the GMC 270 or the GMC 302?  I am learning, however slow...

Alan

[c49er]

Remove the 1/8" pipe plug over #6 cylinder..

insert a foot long  piece of 1/16" or 1/8" straight rod down onto the piston...

rotate crank and measure piston travel  (stroke)..needs to be 4-3/4" for a 265.

[Rusty_OToole]

One thing that bothers me is the lack of oil filter. I would have expected a 265 to have the full flow tower filter. It has none at all. The filter would be between the starter and dipstick tube if it had one. However, you can always add a bypass filter which is practically as good as the full flow.

 

When you get it check the stroke as C49er says.

 

On the subject of camshafts. The cars had a pretty mild cam to start with. I don't think it would need to be changed for truck or industrial use. Another thing most people don't know, is that the performance characteristics of a cam can be changed quite a bit by advancing or retarding. Advance for better low speed cylinder filling, retard for high speed. This can easily be done by drilling the bolt holes in the cam sprocket in slightly different locations.

 

If you want to check the cam specs you can do so by removing the head and measuring cam lift and duration with a degree wheel and a dial indicator right on the valve. On a flathead the valve movement corresponds directly to the cam contour.

[Rusty_OToole]

The GMC was a totally different design from the Chev six and much more advanced technically and more expensive to make. In hopped up form they had more power potential than the flathead Chrysler and were probably just as durable.

 

Once you get into OHV engines it is only a short step to a small block Chevy and once you go there, might as well use a late model V8. The 265 is a good engine within limits and its over the road performance may surprise you. But it is not a sports car or racing engine by any stretch of the imagination.

[alsfarms]

Do you know if the Chrysler 6 engine design is 'hard' on the cams?  That is one lite weakness with the early Chev. small block V-8's.  They tended to wear the cams.  That issue may have been caused by the oils used in the 50's and 60's however and maybe not having the oil changed before it broke down.  We do have a cam grinder here in Utah if needed, (and he has many profiles).  In the back, I also have the makings of a Studebaker 250 President 8, that will be used in another project.  Our cam guy suggests a good profile for that engine also.  I am a bit concerned that the oil pump gear drive may need to go as space in the front of the engine compartment is a premium.  That will require some measuring when it gets here.  I am not trying to build a 1/4 mile digger, out of the 265, but just building a very good road engine using this same series motor as the original with a bit more twist.

Al

[Rusty_OToole]

Flatheads have simple light weight valve gear with light springs and do not have trouble with excess wear. The cam wear problems came to light with the advent of the OHV V8 in the early fifties. Studebaker and Chrysler had problems with their first V8s, they solved the problem by a change in lifter material and by adding zinc to the oil. This is the first time zinc or zddp was added to oil.

 

Recently they took it out because nobody makes pushrod OHV performance V8s anymore. OHC engines have simple lightly loaded valve gear like a flathead.

 

The one weak point on Chrysler built flatheads was the pistons. Old high mileage engines often have broken pistons. I have never been able to account for this and have never heard a good explanation.

 

This usually does not cause any problems, the engine keeps running but with reduced power.

 

The rest of the engine is quite durable for its time. They seem to keep running in an advanced state of wear and neglect and don't even make much noise about it. They just get harder to start and down on power. I have seen old worn out Chrysler sixes on their last legs that made less noise than a newly rebuilt Chev six.

 

Again, I refer you to the web page posted above about the 1951 DeSoto Suburban 8 pass sedan, and the owner's experience over 185,000 miles of service. This car was always well maintained and the engine rebuilt after 85,000 miles. This was typical engine life for the times. With modern rings, valves and filters you could probably extend that, maybe double it.

 

I doubt you are interested in driving your 'special' more than 85,000 miles anyway.

 

I don't know what you mean by the oil pump gear drive. The engine's oil pump is on the right side and does not get in the way. If you mean an accessory pump unique to your engine just take it off.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)