hpof

[old car fan]

How does one get a hpof on a car that was clearly restored or painted, several out there. Explain how you judge these cars  ,Would love to know.I know some cars should be in the drivers class.

[John_S_in_Penna]

The criteria for the HPOF class have become stricter, 

so now a car that is all original, except for repainting,

can likely no longer achieve that status.  The cars you

see might have achieved their HPOF badge in prior years

under other criteria.

 

And I must say, that there's no reason for certain cars

to be relegated to the Drivers' Participation Class.

Whether a car is perfect or not, it can be in the judged classes

where the cars are nicely organized for spectators' viewing.

The owner might get a 2nd Junior or 3rd Junior award if

he puts his car there;  and regardless, a car in those classes

can be registered with a "Do Not Judge" designation

if the owner doesn't want to pursue a trophy. 

[ted sweet]

with that change we are losing those cars since they now most be restored or never get an aaca award

[trimacar]

6 hours ago, ted sweet said:

with that change we are losing those cars since they now most be restored or never get an aaca award

I don't believe that's true.  I have a friend with a totally unrestored early 20's car, he put it in the regular class to be judged, and received an award, second Junior I believe.

 

I know the argument that all HPOF cars need to be in one place for judging, but I'd rather see all cars placed in their class, restored or not....makes for very interesting comparisons between original and restored cars....

[Terry Bond]

Ted, it's the car owner's choice if they want to get into a competitive judging class or not.  If they do, and expect to be competitive, they just need to be sure they've done what's needed to get to the level they are trying to achieve.  It can be done with original cars - I know of several people who have entered low mileage unrestored vehicles in class judging and done very well, including 1st Junior, Senior and Preservation awards.  It's also frequently done with vehicles that are regularly driven.  We've done that with our MGBGT - over 40K on the car since restoration.  Never been trailered except once when it broke down on a local tour.  My 1914 T got a 1st place in a National Meet back in 1965 and has been driven/toured regularly since then.  It's showing it's age but I've chosen not to re-restore it. I still want it to be in class with all the other Model Ts, so I always enter it as Do Not Judge.  So, the owner needs to decide what they want to do, it's entirely up to the individual, and there are multiple opportunities to get a vehicle on the show-field.   Standing beside your pride-n-joy and showing it off at a meet like Hershey is a fabulous experience.

Terry

[Phillip Cole]

Go to aaca.org. Under Publications, click on Judges Guidelines to download it. Look at pages 3-10 and 3-11, HPOF Certification and Original HPOF Certification forms, and decide for yourself.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Phillip Cole
spelling (see edit history)

[AnniesSS]

When you enter HPOF, the owner of the vehicle is asked to disclose any and all modifications/repairs done to the vehicle on their evaluation sheet.  If someone doesn't disclose that it has been repainted, i'm not sure if the HPOF judge can question it or not.  

[61polara]

An HPOF vehicle can receive certification with a repaint.  The number of deductions permitted increases with the age of the vehicle.  A complete repaint is a significant deduction and if there are other deductions, it would be nearly impossible for a newer vehicle to be awarded an HPOF badge.  The HPOF Original further limits the number of deductions, so it is very unlikely that a completely repainted vehicle would receive that award.  Most HPOF judges can and do spot a repaint even if it is not disclosed by the owner.  The disclosure by the owner on the evaluation sheet is only a guide to the judges.  It does not limit deductions by the judges or mean a deduction will be made by the judges.  

[old car fan]

The reason I ask ,at Hershey, walking  the show,i noticed cars that were not close to the standards.They did get awards.I love the show.no disrespect,but seem to be getting a bit lax,that is my favorite class,other than than  early cars.

Edited October 26, 2017 by old car fan (see edit history)

[trimacar]

I'm no expert at AACA judging, but you have to study how cars are judged in order to understand how an original, or what you'd consider a "marginal", car, can receive an award.

 

Originality  counts for a good portion of the judging.  Thus, a car with good original interior can get a point or so off for condition, but ALL the points for originality....

 

it's not all about being pretty.....

[ex98thdrill]

On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 2:26 PM, Terry Bond said:

Ted, it's the car owner's choice if they want to get into a competitive judging class or not.  If they do, and expect to be competitive, they just need to be sure they've done what's needed to get to the level they are trying to achieve.  It can be done with original cars - I know of several people who have entered low mileage unrestored vehicles in class judging and done very well, including 1st Junior, Senior and Preservation awards.  It's also frequently done with vehicles that are regularly driven.  We've done that with our MGBGT - over 40K on the car since restoration.  Never been trailered except once when it broke down on a local tour.  My 1914 T got a 1st place in a National Meet back in 1965 and has been driven/toured regularly since then.  It's showing it's age but I've chosen not to re-restore it. I still want it to be in class with all the other Model Ts, so I always enter it as Do Not Judge.  So, the owner needs to decide what they want to do, it's entirely up to the individual, and there are multiple opportunities to get a vehicle on the show-field.   Standing beside your pride-n-joy and showing it off at a meet like Hershey is a fabulous experience.

Terry

Ah Terry, you've hit something that I recall very well...

 

The headaches of being the chairperson of registration.  Oh how I remember the days as Meet Chairman trying to help out the registration chairperson. 

 

For those of you who don't know, the vehicles are classed based on how the vehicle owner enters it.  Once that happens, then it becomes the nightmare of the registration chairperson.

 

I can remember when we chaired the meet Herb Oakes warned me about that. 

 

Here are some of the mistakes that you'll see:

- The 1965 Mustang that is entered in the class with the 1965 Fords instead of the Mustang class. 

- The 1957 Corvette entered in the regular car class and not the Corvettes.

- The Ford pickup entered in a class where the cars would go and not the truck class.

- The Dodge Ramcharger that gets entered in either the truck class or the car class and not the SUV class.

- The Dodge Daytona Charger that is entered in the regular Dodge class and not the muscle car class.

- The Ford Mustang Police car that is entered in either the Ford class or the Mustang Class when it whould be in the Professional Vehicle Class.

- The 1942 Harley Davidson WLA that is entered in the regular motorcycle class instead of the military vehicle class.

- A race car that is not entered in the race car class and finds its' way into the class the car would've been in had it been stock.

 

When we chaired the meet, I had a member of my own region who had a car that won it's Senior award that submitted his paperwork to put the car in HPOF so then we had to sort that out.

 

That isn't all of them, but this gives you a good idea of the headaches that it involves.

 

Nine times out of ten, it usually happens with a new member who is showing their car for the first time. 

 

The meet registration chairperson and the Vice President of Class Judging do their best to correct this problem before the vehicle hits the show field, but sometimes vehicles do fall between the cracks.  At a show the size of Hershey, it's very easy to do.

 

Again, the Meet registration chairperson and Chief Judge can only place cars based on the information that the vehicle owner has provided to them.

Edited October 28, 2017 by ex98thdrill (see edit history)

[Walt G]

Original cars are encouraged to go with the HPOF class. A few years ago a friend had an original Marmon roadster he brought to the show, great running car, totally original except for tires. He wanted it in the regular class with other cars of that era not in the HPOF class and only when he insisted he be in that class and not the HPOF class did the people in charge back off. He has no interest in having his cars judged so that was not an issue. The same rules apply to all AACA events across the board, but each one will have it's own set of volunteers who will look at the cars differently.

I totally agree with Trimacar and think all cars should go into the regular class so you can look at all aspects and condition of vehicles of similar vintage.

[Restorer32]

I will cast the 3rd vote for all HPOF cars going into their regular classes with an HPOF card on the windshield.

[Steve Moskowitz]

There are a LOT of votes for this including mine BUT ( there is always a BUT) this is not so simple.  While it may seem drastically simple to some it is not to our judging process.  We have assembled a team of HPOF judges.  They are assigned at each meet to evaluate this class.  It allows for consistency in a class that has some nuances as it is Historical Preservation of Original Features and not just all original cars.  So put yourself in the place of such a team at Hershey for instance, it would mean they would have to go all over the entire field to find the cars to evaluate.  This would make things difficult for the team and difficult for the timing of calculating the awards.  Unless you are involved in the judging and aftermath of judging (judges admin) you would not understand how fast people have to work to be ready for the evening awards ceremony.  It is quite a dance.

 

Over the years it has been discussed to have teams qualified to judge HPOF, DPC and regular cars so they could accomplish something like this but in the view of many it is problematic and does not give us the best result in evaluating all the cars.  Again, it has been looked at and tried in one meet a few years ago without great success. 

 

Also, if you do it for HPOF then it would make sense you would do it for DPC which doubles some of the issues.

 

Good idea, support it but as I said there have been many ideas thrown out on how to do this but none have worked.  As stated, unless you completely understand the entire process it seems simple but it is hardly that. 

 

Cars that want to be DNJ always have the option of being in a judged class.  It is as simple as putting the class down on the registration card and checking off that you do not want the car judged.   

 

[MCHinson]

Steve,

 

I would like to suggest a hybrid potential solution. Perhaps some consideration could be made for First Time HPOF candidate cars  and Cars competing for AACA Original to be in their own HPOF area and be evaluated by the HPOF team. Perhaps repeat AACA Original cars could be parked in the area with similar cars and allow the teams judging those classes to simply confirm their appropriateness for Repeat certification.  While it would be a little bit more complicated, maybe this would be a good compromise?   

[Terry Bond]

Like Steve has mentioned, it's difficult to actually do what has been suggested.  Having the teams dancing all over the place on show day and asking them to complete their task so Admin can crunch all the results in time  is a monumental task.  What I had proposed quite some time ago is an event for HPOF that stands alone - yes, a national meet held once annually alternating to different parts of the country that is just for HPOF cars.  It's an idea that received widespread support but we've never had a region step forward to do it.  The potential to receive publicity for such an event would really help promote the cars and have many other positive benefits to the club as well.   I supposed it could be brought back to life as an idea in the future if we had a group interested in doing that.   Another idea would be to have HPOF "Pre certified" by doing it the day prior to the event much the same as is done for race car/motorcycle testing on a Friday before the show.  That might take some of the pressure off of the evaluation team on show day, but the others would still need to be evaluated.  I've always thought it would be great to see HPOF cars parked in their own specific class.  Wish it was as easy as it sounds.

Terry

[Marty Roth]

On 10/24/2017 at 1:26 PM, Terry Bond said:

Ted, it's the car owner's choice if they want to get into a competitive judging class or not.  If they do, and expect to be competitive, they just need to be sure they've done what's needed to get to the level they are trying to achieve.  It can be done with original cars - I know of several people who have entered low mileage unrestored vehicles in class judging and done very well, including 1st Junior, Senior and Preservation awards.  It's also frequently done with vehicles that are regularly driven.  We've done that with our MGBGT - over 40K on the car since restoration.  Never been trailered except once when it broke down on a local tour.  My 1914 T got a 1st place in a National Meet back in 1965 and has been driven/toured regularly since then.  It's showing it's age but I've chosen not to re-restore it. I still want it to be in class with all the other Model Ts, so I always enter it as Do Not Judge.  So, the owner needs to decide what they want to do, it's entirely up to the individual, and there are multiple opportunities to get a vehicle on the show-field.   Standing beside your pride-n-joy and showing it off at a meet like Hershey is a fabulous experience.

Terry

 

Terry is right on the money, and here is another example:

 

Our 1988 C-4 "Little Red Corvette" convertible was bought new by my cousin, is a "One-Family-Car", has never spent a night out of doors except when on (or travelling to/from an AACA or VMCCA tour. This Corvette has 144,xxx miles ans has earned its AACA FIRST JUNIOR. 

 

Here's the rub: This Corvette is totally ORIGINAL ! by the guidelines of the HPOF guidelines - but cannot be awarded the HPOF designation according to current rules unless we give up the FIRST JUNIOR and then have it judged as HPOF. Many folks, while recognizing that most judged cars are restored, also agree that unrestored vehicles can be worthy of Class Judging recognition. These folks believe that vehicles should be eligible for both Class Judging and for HPOF at the same time without having to wait TEN YEARS in between. A vehicle can be original and authentic and of excellent condition - class judging looks first at authenticity, and then at condition.

 

Your thoughts?

[John_S_in_Penna]

20 hours ago, Marty Roth said:

...vehicles should be eligible for both Class Judging and for HPOF at the same time without having to wait TEN YEARS in between. .

 

I've thought of that, too.  It is an excellent idea.

Imagine the cachet of an all-original car that

is so well maintained that it can also win a Senior award.

The only detracting aspect is that someone might 

take a near-perfect original car, get an HPOF award, then restore it

just enough to get a Senior, thereby taking away from some of its originality.

 

I have seen a few cars that might meet both criteria at our

own region's shows:  for example, a 1950 Chevrolet in such superb condition

that it looked restored--but it was all original!

Edited November 3, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Is there such a thing as Repeat Preservation? If so maybe there could be a special  class for first time HPOF certification but after that the cars could be in their regular classes since presumably Repeat would be far less strenuous judging just like the regular Preservation classes. What's the difference between a Repeat Preservation evaluation and a Repeat HPOF evaluation? Again, just brain storming.

[Restorer32]

And of course I meant to type "Is there such a thing as Repeat HPOF"?

[Steve Moskowitz]

Yes, there is such a thing as Repeat Preservation, Repeat HPOF, Repeat DPC, Repeat Original.   

[61polara]

A car evaluated for a Repeat HPOF or Repeat Original HPOF award is evaluated to the same standard as the first time award.  However the judges are primarily looking for modifications since the first award that would cause the car to no longer qualify for the award.  In past shows, I've see HPOF cars that have had disc brakes added or the bias ply tires replaced by radials or hoses replaced and modern clamps used rather than the original style and the car loose enough points that it did not qualify for a repeat award.  If there are enough modifications (or restoration) since the certification of the car, the HPOF team may recommend that the owner move the car to DPC or class judging for future meets.