Recommended Posts

I just bought a 1951 Chrysler NewYorker from Missouri and brought into Pa. the problem I'm having is that the title number doesn't match theVIN on the door post which is what Pa looks at. The title says"C51845657" while the door VIN plate is "7192545" any help to get this mess corrected? Where is the first number located?

IMG_0900.JPG

IMG_0903.JPG

IMG_0901.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Using the engine number on title documents was very common in the 1950s. Find someone in the DMV who is old enough to know that.

  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BobJohnson,

 

Welcome to the AACA Discussion Forum. Please do yourself a major favor and don't mess with the car's original numbers. There are several different numbers found on most cars. In the past, before 17 digit Vehicle Identification Numbers, it was common to title a vehicle by either the frame or chassis number or by the engine number, or in some cases, both. 

 

Hopefully someone with experience with a Chrysler of that era can help you locate the engine number, which probably matches the number found on your title. You DMV should have someone who knows enough to help you with this issue. Perhaps the person who sold you the car can help you locate the engine number. There is no reason to start trying to falsify numbers on a car to match the paperwork. Simply get the facts and as long as you actually have the correct title for that car, the car and the paperwork will match as it is supposed to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 You have just entered the Twilight Zone of the registry.

 Very little is known about this place, as not too many have ever left after entering there. All the passageways seem to be circular and all end up in a dead end. 

 The doors always open up into a long dark passage with a clerk sitting at a desk

that always answer NO!

 Sometimes it is possible to have an intelligent conversation with someone, who always answer NO anyways.

 There are people that can over ride the NO, but they are very hard to find.

 

  In Ma., there is a question "is the car from NY.?" I am yet to find out why they ask that question. Good luck. You have a better chance of receiving your death certificate before getting a corrected title!   (;-0)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I bought a 1956 Wills-Overland pickup that was registered as  a 1950. I figured back when things were hand written someone got fancy with the 0. I made out all the correct paperwork for a '56 and took it to the DMV. The first person thought I was a criminal and told me to get a signed statement from a counterman I had mentioned agreed with me. That was a stupid idea so I started to leave for another office and perpetuate the mistake. Wanting to do things right, I turned around and asked for the Boss. She was better natured. We looked up all the Willys pickups listed in the state, about 6 or 8 of them. There was no consistency in the VIN numbers at all. Then she said "An older car is worth more than a newer one, so you are not defrauding to make it worth more." I hesitated because it was a better truck with a bigger engine. She stopped me and nodded her head saying "Agree with me." I let my brain fart pass. And everything went smoothly.

 

Ask, in a rural DMV office, to compare the numbers with other PA titles for '51 Chryslers in the database. Just stay away from those city branches.

 

And always practice looking stupid in the mirror every morning. THEY look in the mirror and get angry every morning, It is obvious it really works.

Bernie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BobJohnson said:

Will try. But would like to make a new door tag with the proper serial number on it.

 

The last thing you want to do is remove or change that tag. Try locating the engine number. If the engine number is what is on the title show that to the DMV. 

Edited by Brass is Best (see edit history)
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, BobJohnson said:

Will try. But would like to make a new door tag with the proper serial number on it.

 

For reference, 1951 Chrysler C52 New Yorker, Detroit built, is #7165001 through #7199900

Very common to have cars of that era titled to the engine number.

Inspector can verify engine number and add a notation with the serial number on the door post.

The term "VIN number" didn't come about until about thirty years later.

 

The engine number is stamped on top of the  block, behind the water pump.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had a State Police officer tell me as long as I can show them the Title number "permanently affixed to the vehicle" they are good.  They do not care where the plate is, it just needs to correspond the vehicle title (engines numbers are the rule before 1950).  My guess is they are generally more interested in lunch, than where the plate is located.

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

my 1923 buick used the engine number on the title when i first bought it 15 years ago. after i found the vin on the frame i took the car back to the arizona motor vehicle department by my house and they verified the two numbers and issued me a new title with the frame vin. took an hour and a few bucks but worth it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As others have mentioned, titling to an engine number, or a frame number, or both, was common. With no "VIN" in those days, what was used varied by state .

 

I had a Nash with a unibody that had something like a VIN. Since there was no frame, it had a number that referred to the whole body/frame unit, just like the VIN of today. States weren't accustomed to that yet since it was not yet the usual way of doing things. Nashes in Washington were titled to this VIN-like number, except mine, it was titled to the engine number. I spoke with the original owner, and he told me he bought the car in Oregon, and brought it to Washington 7 years later. Apparently the Washington authorities just copied the number from the Oregon paperwork. This was only a problem because the block was cracked. It shouldn't have been a big deal because the cracked block with the correct number was in the still drivable car. I let that one go to another enthusiast who was more interested in dealing with the upcoming title issues than I was.

 

It probably is an engine number. If it matches, there is nothing to do unless you need to change the engine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You may want to find a cop that is a car guy (I had no trouble doing that when I went for my registration) and have him check the engine # vs the title info (after you have already verified it is a correct match for what’s on the title) get his name, badge # and a phone number if he is willing to give it to you. Then if the registration people give you a hard time tell them you had the police check it first and give them the cops info. They will most likely back off or worst case call him or go check the numbers themselves. It works pretty well. 

Edited by SC38DLS (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The original engine number is stamped somewhere on the frame.  In Plymouths of this era, it is on the frame rail near the left rear wheel; I'd suspect the same is true for Chrysler.  You may want to consider posting on the p15-d24.com forum.  There are also many knowledgeable Mopar folk there and you may get a better idea of the location of the frame number.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless things have changed in PA no one "looks" at your car or where the ser # is located. They used to require a pencil rubbing of the number. If you can locate that number wherever it is just make the rubbing and send it along with the paper work. 

If you can't find the correct # or the engine number is different from the title then there is the possibility your title is not the correct title and there is the possibility the seller was not the rightful owner.

Some folks when faced with that situation simply stamp the needed # on a piece of aluminum and use that to make the pencil rubbing.

That will get you a title and plates  but is just kicking the can down down the road............Bob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, BobJohnson said:

Found it! It matches!

 

Excellent! You're good to go. A tracing should be all you need......................Bob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

Unless things have changed in PA no one "looks" at your car or where the ser # is located. They used to require a pencil rubbing of the number. If you can locate that number wherever it is just make the rubbing and send it along with the paper work. 

If you can't find the correct # or the engine number is different from the title then there is the possibility your title is not the correct title and there is the possibility the seller was not the rightful owner.

Some folks when faced with that situation simply stamp the needed # on a piece of aluminum and use that to make the pencil rubbing.

That will get you a title and plates  but is just kicking the can down down the road............Bob

Bob

When I got my Pa plates/registration they told me to either take it to an inspection station to have the vin verified or bring it to them so they could physically look at the number on the plate.

 

Matt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, jackofalltrades70 said:

Bob

When I got my Pa plates/registration they told me to either take it to an inspection station to have the vin verified or bring it to them so they could physically look at the number on the plate.

 

Matt

 

How long ago was that Matt? As of 5 years ago it was a tracing. So maybe things HAVE changed.......................Bob

Edited by Bhigdog (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks VB. It appears from the reading you provided that a tracing is still valid but NOW it must be authenticated by one of the the parties mentioned. That's new. The photo part is new also, it was only a tracing  before. Still pretty liberal requirements.............Bob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, BobJohnson said:

Found it! It matches!

Where did you find it?  How about a picture to help others?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PA allows for "rubs" for titling from out of state. So if you can get a rub off the engine block there is a good chance they will just issue the title with that, though it will still be the block not the actual VIN. The term PennDot uses is "legible tracing". It's just kicking the can down the road but it could work. I agree with others, the worst thing to do is change the data plate. It's illegal for starters and goes downhill from there.

From the factsheet I read 

Quote

Visual verification shall be required in the following situations when it is impossible to obtain a legible tracing or photograph of the VIN


So that means you only need someone else to verify when it's "impossible to obtain a legible tracing or photograph of the vin"

Edited by Frantz (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

as long as there have been numbers stamped into places on cars they have been called VIN vehicle identification numbers.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now