Heres one for you Hudson guys

[JACK M]

I was up north east of Seattle yesterday chasing parts and found this.

A brother and sister liquidating their late fathers stuff.

Car is pretty much rotted away but there looks to be some good parts.

PM me if you want her phone number. She's in charge of coarse.

[Frantz]

I'd love to get one of those motors to restore... even if I didn't have the car! But I can't cross the country for it.

[JACK M]

Isn't that how it always works? LOL

[CarlLaFong]

Hollywood hardtop. Twin H.............too bad it was allowed to get to this point. Probably on of those, "I'm gonna restore it, some day" cars.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

A serious question for you gents: Is this all over rust consistent with the sort of rust that happens near the oceans? I've seen other similar examples in Florida and the east coast and it simply is so much different than the road salt rust that I'm so familiar with as a Minnesotan. If it is, how far inland do you have to go before it's effect diminishes?

[Frantz]

It looks "normal" to me, grew up here in south central Pa.

[Steve9]

Rain is the enemy in the Pacific Northwest. Everything that rots here is from the outside in. Rust near the ocean has salt which will speed up the process, but I think the wet weather we get here in Seattle does a fine job on its own.

[Bloo]

1 hour ago, Hudsy Wudsy said:

A serious question for you gents: Is this all over rust consistent with the sort of rust that happens near the oceans? I've seen other similar examples in Florida and the east coast and it simply is so much different than the road salt rust that I'm so familiar with as a Minnesotan. If it is, how far inland do you have to go before it's effect diminishes?

 

In Seattle, we are right up against the salt water. Serious structural rust is possible in Washington state but rare. Are you suggesting costal areas are worse than Minnesota?!!! (serious question).

 

That could happen in the wet (costal) half of the Washington state probably if it was in the shade, under trees, with debris from the trees driopping on it and staying wet, and it was sitting right on the ground....I guess. Generally speaking, cars that guys from the midwest say are "not that bad" would scare the crap out of anyone from Washington. We have a coast, and I think I would have seen a lot more really bad cars throughout my life if it were happening. 99.9% of the completely shot-from-rust cars I have seen in my life came from somewhere else, ususally the midwest.

 

The eastern half of Washington is a completely different climate, technically a desert (though not like Nevada). It has hot summers and cold winters with snow. Salt and salt-like de-icers were not used here until relatively recently.

 

A Washington car will typically have rusted out rear quarter panels where the dirt buildup sat and stayed wet, holes in the floor from the water leaking in and not draining out, much worse if the mats were rubber. The bottom tail of the front fender might be gone too if there was something to catch dirt. There will be some isolated rust in a few more places. The rockers could be bad if the dirt got in and stayed. The frame will be fine, unless it was literally on the ground, and even then it might be ok. If it is eastern WA, all the lenses, plastic, dash, etc will be completely sun baked and shot. It it is western WA (wet) there will be moss and mold trying to grow everywhere.

 

It is still possible to find cars that are way beyond help of course. Even so, they are probably 30 years behind the midwest in terms of rust.

 

A Florida transplant once told me to watch out for Florida cars, because the damage is all underneath where you cant see it.

 

There was a thread the other day where it was brought up that barn storage in Ohio can destroy a car fairly quickly. Barns are fine here, or at least not a death sentence. Over the years it has been fairly common to drag something out of a barn and revive it

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2017 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Hudsy Wudsy]

Quote Bloo, "

1 hour ago, Bloo said:

In Seattle, we are right up against the salt water. Serious structural rust is possible in Washington state but rare. Are you suggesting costal areas are worse than Minnesota?!!! (serious question).

 Don't be silly and don't be touchy. I simply said that it is "so much different than the road salt rust that I'm so familiar with as a Minnesotan." Our cars rust from the bottom up. I'm sure that you know that. It seems to me that I've seen cars from other parts of the country that rust through in unusual places like hoods, trunk lids and even roofs. I was merely asking if this all over rust is consistent with salt-air rust. You did answer my question about how far inland the salt-air rust goes. For that I'm grateful.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)

[mike6024]

That's not salt air rust. Just the same as I see.  Aggressive rust with flaking and bubbling would indicate close beach exposure to salt air.

[Bloo]

1 hour ago, Hudsy Wudsy said:

Quote Bloo, "

 Don't be silly and don't be touchy. I simply said that it is "so much different than the road salt rust that I'm so familiar with as a Minnesotan." Our cars rust from the bottom up. I'm sure that you know that. It seems to me that I've seen cars from other parts of the country that rust through in unusual places like hoods, trunk lids and even roofs. I was merely asking if this all over rust is consistent with salt-air rust. You did answer my question about how far inland the salt-air rust goes. For that I'm grateful.

 

If that sounded snarky, My apoligies. I didn't mean it that way. It is interesting how these things vary all over the country in ways you wouldn't necessarily expect. I was hoping for more on that subject.

 

Yes, I have seen pictures of Minnesota cars that appeared to be breaking apart from the bottom. East coast cars get it bad too, so bad I hear some states inspect them yearly. We don't do that here. I had always assumed that the east coast cars were eaten by road salt just like in Minnesota, not salt air. If it is salt air, then it is interesting that it doesn't seem to happen much in California. As you know, people brag about cars being from California because it implies that they are rust-free, and California's 2 biggest population centers are costal.

 

The Ohio barn rust thing (from a different thread) really surprised me. An uncle of mine drove a brand new Ford LTD out here from Ohio in 72. He came back  here again 3 years later, and there were visible rust holes in it. He told me Chryslers (my favorite brand) rusted much faster. I assume this was all road salt.

 

One thing that does happen on the wet side of the Washington state, cars can get covered by blackberries! That would make a mess like that Hudson in the pictures by keeping the car completely wet and shaded. Now I wonder if that is what happened to it.

 

You can get bad rust here if you drive on the beach a lot. There aren't many places you can legally do that. Maybe you can in Florida?

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

I know step downs pretty well. A 54 Hudson is a good looking car. Motor, Transmission (maybe), window frames and a few other parts. That is all you will get from that Hudson. Fixing a step down with a lot of rust is not fun A friend has this convertible for sale, nice solid car, PS, PB, PW and PT. I threw together a 54 Coupe a few years ago.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Xander Wildeisen (see edit history)

[Hudsy Wudsy]

Xander, does that convertible have a cloth interior? If so, that's pretty unusual. Looking at the Twin H set up on the rust bucket at the beginning of this thread I see something of a problem. Did you notice that the fuel line to the second carburetor is above "grade"? That line should be at least level and, if possible, tipped a little downward. Like in this picture from Google:

 

Here's one with a fuel line to the second carburetor that someone made too long and then chose to simply put a bend in to make it the right length. It wouldn't have been prone to vapor locking if they had made the bend dip down instead of up:

 

 

 

If anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about, vapor locking can be caused by different things, but one fundamental way to help prevent it, with any car, is to make sure that no point in the fuel line be above the height of the fuel bowl inlet.

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

The convertible has the factory interior. Might have some fuzzy cloth like growth one them. Got to love Pacific Northwest cars, Outside they rust. Inside stuff grows on them. 

[Hudsy Wudsy]

Xander, may I ask what sort of money is your friend asking for the convert?

[Xander Wildeisen]

I do not want to speak for him on prices for his cars. He has a 54 Hornet Hollywood, 54 Hornet convertible and a 55 Hornet sedan. You can reach him at 1-208-890-4989, His name is Doug 

[JACK M]

Yup, parking under the trees is about the hardest thing on cars from the NW.

They NEVER get dry.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

I think that I get it now. The salt air is an issue very near the ocean, but the effect of high rainfall and humidity remains a factor for some distance inland. Is that about right?

[Restorer32]

We showed a 1949 Hudson 4 door Commodore 6 in class 26b. When you do a complete restoration of a car you get a certain general impression of the marque. For instance, a Model A Ford has not an ounce of fat on it anywhere. Just enough engineering and materials to do the job, nothing more. Our impression of Hudsons, obviously based on a very small sample, is that they are over designed and under engineered, especially the interiors. I don't mean this in a demeaning way at all, they are fine cars but by the time you are finished the restoration of the interior you realize that it could have been engineered for much easier installation. Is there another car in the same price range with as much wood graining?

[trimacar]

4 hours ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

I do not want to speak for him on prices for his cars. He has a 54 Hornet Hollywood, 54 Hornet convertible and a 55 Hornet sedan. You can reach him at 1-208-890-4989, His name is Doug 

That is a very smart thing not to do, if I have my grammar correct.

 

I once repeated a price on a Shelby GT 500 to a fellow, as I'd heard the owner say he'd sell it for that.  The fellow flew half way across country, looked at the car, and the price from the owner was WAY higher than what he'd told me.  Needless to say, the potential buyer was aggravated, and guess at who (whom?)........

 

As far as the engineering goes, a lot of engineers do things just because they can, not because it's the best way to solve a problem.  I'm an engineer, so I can criticize us!  As great as they are, and as needed as they have to be, it's difficult to find an engineer who can not only design cleanly, but who also has common sense in the real world application of a design.

[Bleach]

The Hudson in the beginning of the post looks similar to cars that were left in a Belgian forest. This car like the ones in the forest were eaten away by the acidic effects of conifer trees. The trees around this Hudson look like Western Hemlocks. It's "needles" like any other conifer, tend to be acidic and the soil will also probably be acidic as a result.

 

[capngrog]

In addition to what Bleach said, newly fallen leaves can also be acidic, with a pH of 6 or less.  Oak leaves contain tannin, which is acidic and can have an effect on the top 2 inches or so of soil.  A vehicle on tires is a little bit protected, but once it sinks into the ground and metal parts contact acidic soil, things deteriorate rather quickly (a matter of years, not decades).

 

Cheers,

Grog

[mike6024]

 

Looks like a Western red Cedar to me.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsuga_heterophylla                 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuja_plicata

Edited October 12, 2017 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[Bleach]

You're right Mike. I recognized the "leaf" but misidentified it. Definitely cedar.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

5 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

We showed a 1949 Hudson 4 door Commodore 6 in class 26b. When you do a complete restoration of a car you get a certain general impression of the marque. For instance, a Model A Ford has not an ounce of fat on it anywhere. Just enough engineering and materials to do the job, nothing more. Our impression of Hudsons, obviously based on a very small sample, is that they are over designed and under engineered, especially the interiors. I don't mean this in a demeaning way at all, they are fine cars but by the time you are finished the restoration of the interior you realize that it could have been engineered for much easier installation. Is there another car in the same price range with as much wood graining?

Many, many years ago I recall a Hudson fan bragging that whenever he got the chance he would show someone how many screws Hudson used to assemble a glove box door. I don't recall the number, but perhaps it was eleven. He would then go on to say that  Buick only used four (maybe). I was young enough to be impressed. Of course over the years I came to understand that over engineered is not at all the same as well engineered. Part of my life in retail involved a number of years spent in the sewing machine business. It's there that I came to see the vast difference between well, but cheaply engineered machines (American Singer), over engineered (German machines like Pfaff and Swiss-German Bernina) and well, but beautifully simple engineered machines like Viking (Husqvarna - Swedish). When I left the shrinking business in '87 Bernina had finished producing it's last all-mechanical machine the model 930 and boasted that it had 1,600 moving parts. Then they went on to produce their first all electronic machine, maybe model 1130. The electronic machines on the market used cpus and stepper motors to accomplish all of the needle and fabric feed motion that had previously been done by myriad shafts, cams, lobes, etc. These promised better performance and simpler maintenance. However, in order to open the covers and access the inside of the new Bernina machine, you had to remove eleven screws, seven of which were unique. In order to gain access to the Viking you had to remove two pairs of identical screws for a total of four. My point is that the Swiss-German mindset was such that even with a chance to start from scratch with the new vastly simpler electronic machine and with many competitor's models on the market, they just couldn't look for the clean, simple design properties that seem to come naturally to the Swedish engineers

Edited October 13, 2017 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

The Swiss-Germans have been making some of the most complex stuff for a long time.

 

[trimacar]

I worked for two large food processing companies over a period of 25 years.  I had the opportunity to travel the world, inspecting and buying packaging equipment, liquid fillers, and other equipment.

 

Engineering  in each country varies, and combined with my experience with cars, I offer the following observations.

 

Americans engineer large.  Not many bolts, but big ones, heavy castings and weldments, structurally overbuilt.

 

English engineering  uses lots of small parts and assemblies.  Where American uses six big bolts, English use forty small ones.  If there's a simple way and a complex way to do something, English pick the complex.

 

Italian engineering has a lot of levers and pivots and rods and cables, anything that adds a lot of complexity and motion to get something done.  The machine will get the job done, as one stares at it and asks "why?".  However, fit and finish is important.

 

French engineer to meet a purpose and need, and in some areas are very innovative.  If you've ever spent time at a French manufacturing facility, you see they don't have time for complex problems, the pace of life won't tolerate it.

 

German engineering is precise and efficient, there's no tolerance for inefficiency.  Tolerances are held to a high level, but still not the highest.  Fit and finish also important.

 

Japanese engineering is thorough, and beyond precise...it's perfect.....there's no such thing as "field fit" to a Japanese engineer.  The Japanese have no patience with engineering that's imprecise.  The attention to detail is astounding.

 

just my observations...

[Guest Bob Gunder]

JACK M:

I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN GETTING THE LADIES PHONE NUMBER WHO HAS THE HUDSON CLOSE TO SEATTLE.  FROM THE ONE PHOTO IT APPEARS THERE MAY BE SOME  INTERIOR DOOR STAINLESS THAT I COULD USE FOR MY 53 HUDSON HORNET.  THANKS.

BOB G. 

[JACK M]

Personal message sent.

Have fun.

Be sure and tell her I sent you.

[JACK M]

By the way, she also had an interesting 53 Ford two door hard top project up there as well. V8 auto.

It was not in the elements like the Hudson and was surprisingly solid. Albeit partly disassembled.

Sorry, I probably should have taken more pictures. But she was on the spot sending info and pics, or at least she was to me.

 

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by JACK M (see edit history)

[Ed Luddy]

Had this Hudson been parked in Nova Scotia it would have been completely dissolved by rust at least a decade ago. The salt air off the North Atlantic, salt on the roads and generally wet cold climate destroy any car left outside. I think it's the worst place in North America for rust!

[capngrog]

The Florida Keys are also pretty rough on cars since every puff of the wind entrains salt from the ocean which is deposited on everything, including the roads.

 

Cheers,

Grog

[auburnseeker]

I don't know upstate NY is pretty good at consuming cars left outside.  Even ones not exposed to road salt. 

[Hudsy Wudsy]

Yeah, It occurred to me later that the car with the rusted through area on the roof, a little ways back from the windshield that I saw was a Florida car.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

I just want to add a little footnote to what I said earlier about how the Swedish engineers value simplicity. Saab 99s had an inline four cylinder engine mounted in them with the front of the engine next to the firewall and the flywheel, clutch and drive chain (to the transmission and differential, which were mounted beneath the engine) positioned up front by the radiator. To change a clutch in a Saab 99, you removed the radiator, opened up access to the bell housing, slid out a pilot shaft-like piece which linked the clutch driven disc with the drive chain to the transmission below. Then merely removed the clutch from above. Really slick! I loved old Saabs dearly except for their ridiculous English made brakes. They were some of the most snow-worthy cars this Minnesotan ever drove.