Speedster Builds.............

[alsfarms]

Have you ever wondered about early technology in our antique automobiles?  I sure have!  One item that is interesting to consider is the evolution of the principle of delivering gasoline to the carburetor.  Early on, gravity was used. However, that delivery method of using gravity meant that the gasoline tank would have to be high enough above the carburetor that it would flow even when the automobile would be climbing a hill.  The Model T Ford, even with the tank up under the seat, would struggle at times climbing hills back in the day.  The solution was to get in reverse and go up the hill backwards.  That method is certainly a practical means but not a realistic solution to getting up the hill.  The next idea was to pressurize the fuel system in order to push the fuel to the carburetor.  Later, came the vacuum tank system.  Then the mechanical fuel pump and now lastly, we are at the electric pump.  I am going to post a few pictures of a set up that I have put together in order to run my automobile on the early pressurized fuel tank design.  If you have experience setting up and running your automobile on this pressurized fuel tank system please share your "DO's" and "Don't's".  The pressure system is made up of a hand pump, as operated by the driver, to build pressure in the tank in order to push gasoline to the carburetor to initially start the car.  You register the pressure on a dash mounted pressure gauge and should build the pressure to a max. of two pounds.  Then once the car is started, the regulator valve comes into play.  This unit pulls pressure from the running engine and also has a cooling circuit that is sourced from flowing water from the radiator cooling system of the engine.  This unit then admits 2 pounds of regulated pressure into the a sealed  gasoline tank which in turn will push the gasoline up to the carburetor.  This system is actually a very workable design and with no working wear parts.  Your thoughts and comments are welcome.

Al

[alsfarms]

Here is a picture of an early all brass sediment bowl for the fuel delivery system.  Has anyone seen a similar unit to this one?  This one was originally Nickle plated.  For my use, I will strip it and polish up to a nice brass luster.  The Locomobile is earlier than the nickle era.

Al

[mikewest]

Al, It doesn't look like its large enough capacity for your engine. That came off a Whippet or some other baby car.

[alsfarms]

Hello Mike,  Might be out of a baby car but I would think that a car out of the 20's would more likely be cast iron and not nickle plated.   I kinda like this "little baby" sediment catcher.   This unit has about the same bowl size as typical for any system.  Anything new in NY besides snow and more snow?

Al

[alsfarms]

While I am not able to be outside due to winter weather, I will show a few pieces I have machined out in the past to make assembly easier when I get to that point.  Here is part of the spring shackle machining process, the left one is the outside face and the right one is the inside face.  I decided that it was easier to machine out new spring shackles that to mess around restoring the  wallered out originals.  This picture shows one set.  I built a total of four sets of these, two sets for the back side of the front springs and two pair for the front of the rear springs.  They will need to be finished and prepped for paint.  They fit nicely.

Edited March 6, 2019 by alsfarms (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Here is a picture of the new machined spring shackle pin.  I needed two for the back side of the front springs and two for the front of the rear springs.  The picture shows a partly finished brass grease cap installed on the threaded end of the shackle pin. 

Al

[alsfarms]

This picture shows the threaded end of the shackle pin showing the ID threads into which I will install a modern grease zerk.  This picture is also indicative of the other grease fitting ports that I built for use to grease other linkages, cross shafts and steering parts.  I have not Emory cloth sanded any of these pieces to finish them and remove machining burrs.

Al

[alsfarms]

Here is the inside of one of the many grease caps I have mostly built.  I will finish the top to appear like the typical "pinch top" grease caps that is found on our brass era cars.   I have machined room in there for the head of the modern grease fitting and allow this cap to be snugged down tight by hand so they will not rattle off when going down the road.  these will be finished smooth and polished to a high luster.  These caps are all yellow brass.

Al

Edited March 6, 2019 by alsfarms (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

This picture is of the original rebuilt rear spring shackle, one for each rear spring.  New Oilite bronze  bushing is installed.  Locomobile  engineered a very robust shakle piece here.

Al

[AHa]

Al, this shackle will accommodate a larger spring eye than what we talked about. I don't know what is original to your car. Can you get someone with an original 1909 to send you some pictures of the spring eyes on their car.

[alsfarms]

Hello Al,  This rear shackle, as seen above, is not mounted to the car in the typical fashion.  The large hole on the bottom rides on a solid "bar" that runs across the back of the car with one of these shackles on each end.  That cross bar just fits in the larger hole at the bottom.  The open end o the shackle is up and that is where the eye of the spring will be.  The spring eye should be bushed for a 1/2" shackle bolt.

Al

Edited March 7, 2019 by alsfarms (see edit history)

[mikewest]

All looks gd! Ive been in Florida 5 weeks so tonight was the shocker getting back to NY.

[alsfarms]

The original main spring design has a nice tight eye in each with a steel bushing to carry the shackle bolt, but worn out severely.  (The old springs are stacked with a bunch of other Locomobile parts that I can't easily get to at the moment).  Here is a picture of an eye on one of the new main leafs for this car as built by a shop several years ago.  The eye is not real round, according to what the bushing looks like.  This is the same configuration as was the factory original spring.  I think I can remove the bushing and ream to an oversize that will not marginalize the eye of the spring then install a new "Round" OD and ID custom bushing.  If I keep the thing greased, I should never need to replace the bushings in my lifetime.

Al

Edited March 7, 2019 by alsfarms (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I would probably ream that spring eye to make it round using a reamer just minimally larger than the hole. It wouldn't be necessary for the reamer to cut all around... a few low spots will not make a difference. Then I'd press in a bushing. When Napier did this, they used a hardened shackle bolt with a phosphor bronze bushing. I would not use oilite... which is porous and probably does not have the strength of solid bronze or hard bronze. It is fine for a spinning shaft but not a good choice where there is a lot of pressure and very little turning. Another choice might be a steel bolt and cast iron bushings... I will be looking into that alternative myself.

[alsfarms]

Hello Joe,  Your thoughts echo exactly my thoughts to make a significant improvement to the main leaf eyes.  I am certain that I could ream the existing eye holes just larger than what it is now and I agree, would not need to make a "perfect" ID.  I would probably use a good grade bushing bronze, pre-drilling a pilot hole only, before pushing back in place.  (That way I would minimize any additional distortion).  Lastly I would drill/ream to fit my new machined shackle pins. I would then be able to sleep nights with out the spring eye dilemma bugging me!  I am trying to not over engineer this issue, but I simply can't live with it the way it is!

Al

Edited March 7, 2019 by alsfarms
addition for clarity (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

I thought I would follow up with a few additional pictures for springs.  This is a picture showing the profile of one of the new front spring sets purchased a few years ago.  They have a matching taper and end profile to the originals.

Al

[alsfarms]

Here is a close-up of the nice job the spring shop did to built these springs for me.

Al

[Gary_Ash]

Eaton Detroit Spring has a good selection of bronze bushings for leaf springs.  You can have them machine spiral grooves inside to distribute the grease and use hex cap screws drilled part way down the center with a cross hole.  The cap screws should have shanks long enough that no more than 1 or 2 threads are in the bushing or shackle.  That should enable keeping grease in the bushings at all times.  

 

See https://www.eatondetroitspring.com/order-attaching-parts/

 

Edited March 7, 2019 by Gary_Ash (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Here is one of my original replacement front springs that was broken some time....long ago....  Others of the spring stack are also broken.  The whole spring set needed to be replaced.  Pay attention to the eye.  It is a replacement and does not match the absolute original main leave shown next.

[alsfarms]

Hello Gary,    Are your spring shackle bolts grade 8 or grade 5?  I should give Eaton spring a call and see what dimension the bronze bushing they have come in.  I would probably want a blank or one with a pilot hole only.  Do you have your axles/springs all set up and assembled?  A few postings up you will see the shackle bolts with provisions for greasing, very similar to what you have built for your Indy Studebaker, but in my case, more appropriate for this brass era automobile.  I built my shackle bolts out of 4140 so I can toughen then with heat treatment but not make then brittle before installation.  I have included the yellow brass cover that will be very similar to a "pinch top" fitting as found in 1909.

Al

Edited March 7, 2019 by alsfarms
clairty (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Here is a picture of the, virgin from the Locmombile factory in 1909, front spring set from the other side of my car.  This spring is damaged on the other end and requires replacement also.  Note the forged front end of the spring that forms the fitment into the front frame horn, it does not have a typical rolled formed eye like most springs.  Locomobile must have thought this design was deluxe when they engineered the car!  (I am not so sure about that!)  Also note the "riveted on" spring stack alignment clip.  I will need to drill and install these same alignment clips when I assemble the springs to the axles and frame, coming soon!

Al

[alsfarms]

Is anyone else to the point of dealing with frame/suspension and spring issues as you build your speedsters?  Share your learning here for all our benefit.

Al

[JV Puleo]

Al...that is definitely the deluxe method of making a spring eye. It was only used on the most expensive cars and I doubt there is anyone replicating those today.

 

jp

[alsfarms]

While I was out and about messing with springs and such I scrutinized the Locomobile from axle.  I think I have a solution as to the reason my Great-Grand- Dad replaced the original main leaf on the Locomobile.  After very closely checking out the front axle, I can see that the axle is bent on the side that has had the spring replaced.  I suspect that some ditch must have caught the car back in the 1920's.  That early time frame  my area would have had absolutely no asphalt roads and VERY few with gravel.  My Dad was born in 1926 and he had no recollection of the car ever running in his lifetime.  I was to young to know enough to chat with my Grand -Dad while he was still alive, he passed on in 1964, at that time I was 10 yrs. old and didn't know that I would have a lifetime interest in antiques to include about every thing from cars on.....  Here is a picture of the first automobile dealership in our side of the county I live in.  This building still stands and is located just around the corner from my house.  My Great-Grand-Dad built/owned that business and ran it until just before his death in 1932.

[Gary_Ash]

Al, you can see the list of bronze bushings that Mike Eaton stocks by clicking the link I posted, then selecting Bushings from the product tab.  You'll see the bronze ones there.  Sizes seem to range from 0.5" to 0.75" i.d., in various lengths  If you don't see what you want, call Mike Eaton.

 

I used Grade 8 hex cap screws, 3.5" to 5.5" long.  I had planned on using aircraft-grade NAS series bolts.  They are very high strength, but the 3/4" ones run about $50 each - if you can get them in the exact length you want.  I did compare Grade 5 to Grade 8 in both tensile and shear strength, decided that my way- oversized 3/4" bolts in Grade 8 would not be too brittle in shear for a 2500 lb car.  I did use NAS nuts and some NAS washers, as they are available in different thicknesses.  The local machine shop drilled the 1/8" holes and tapped them for grease fittings using carbide tools - no broken drills or taps.  Your 4140 pins should be fine, even without heat treating afterwards, assuming you started with normalized material; 98,000 psi yield strength.  Photos below show the spring mounting arrangement.  The bolts in the photos are the cheap Home Depot ones I used to test fit before getting the greaseable Grade 8 ones.

 

For a good reference on suspension issues and other speedster/race car design and handling questions, I rely on "Race Car Vehicle Dynamics" by Milliken and Milliken.  Not a cheap book, but lots of good, interesting stuff.    

[JV Puleo]

Gosh Al... you should buy that building and use it as a garage! I'm just kidding, but it would certainly make a great place to keep and work on old cars.

 

 

[alsfarms]

Joe, The building, in the picture, used to be on the same property that my house is on along with a store that my Great-Grand-Dad ran.  When he died the property was split up and when the next generation passed, split up again.  The building is currently owned by a relative of mine, (imagine that)!  I may actually purchase and joint that property up with my home again and yes, what a nice place to store and work on cars!  It does need a bunch of work as it has not been taken care of the the past 30 years.

Gary, Your pictures sure give me the urge to spend some time on my Studebaker project.  I am forcing myself to stay focused on the current project, however.  Your reference is much appreciated.  Do you have other body work completed on your Indy car?

Al

[JV Puleo]

My first brass car was a 1910 Model R Reo that I bought when I was in my early 20s. We brought it home on the back of my cousin's 1950s Mack truck and, being total amateurs, chained the chassis down to the bed. As a result, the springs couldn't flex and when we got it back to my house we discovered that the main leaf of one of the front springs was broken. I had a new one made by a local company that has been in business since the 1830s and when I put it on I discovered that the front axle wasn't perpendicular to the chassis! I'm guessing that the chassis must have been bent and straightened at some time and it looks as if they had bent the axel so that the wheels would track straight. It never did cause me a problem.

Edited March 7, 2019 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Is the "R" Reo a 4 cylinder car?  I have heard of more than a few novel repairs given to these relics we work on and your story is another.

Al

[JV Puleo]

Yes. It was their first 4-cylinder car. I remember hearing many years ago that they had a lot of problems with it. It was only made in 10 and 11... in 12 they introduced "Reo the Fifth".  The engine was largely unchanged but there were considerable changes to the chassis. I was told that the odd name "the fifth" was an effort to avoid calling it a Reo "4"... Whether any of that is true or not I can't testify to. The old car world is full of myths and garbled legends.

[AHa]

As a contrast, my 1911 Buick has spring eyes rolled to 1/2" interior diameter to accommodate a 1/2" shackle bolt. Any larger spring eye and the spring eye will not fit into the front frame horn or rear shackle. The shackle bolts are soft metal so they wear instead of the springs. The springs are 1/4" thick, which doesn't allow room to open up the hole to put in a bushing. The shackle bolt is the bushing. The rear springs are full eliptical and the bolts that holds the upper and lower sets together are 3/8ths carriage bolts, which, as every one knows, are extremely soft metal. If I use grade 8 bolts all I'm going to accomplish is wearing out my springs.

 

By the way, somebody should paint "Locomobile" across the front of that building. I looked it up, there are less than 400 residents of Deseret. Hard to believe there was a Locomobile dealership there back in the day.

 

Also, as I understand it, spring eyes are not hardened like the rest of the spring. Any blacksmith should be able heat the spring eyes and drive a rod through to open them up to the dimension you desire without harming the spring. Spring eyes are normally formed around a mandrel. Yours were not.

Edited March 9, 2019 by AHa (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Hello Al,  I have test run the new manufactured main leafs.  The rears will not have a problem at all with the  fit to my rear spring perch's/shackles.  The custom built eyes on the new front spring leafs will in fact fit, the front frame horns, like the original main leafs.  I am just down to the need to remove the nasty deformed bushings, ream oversized, then insert new bronze bushings as suggested  by Gary of Indy Racer fame.   I also have yet another side issue running which is the rear fender irons (which I do not have).  I have a set of good pictures that show me how the fenders are mounted to the irons and then in turn mounted to the body.  Once again , this is just time and effort to get there.

Al

[alsfarms]

Here is a side note.  I read on the automobile wanted area, close to the top of the AACA forums, A fellow, Mercer09. is looking for an early 40 plus hp chassis.  If any of you here are looking to sell a project or one of your projects, this may be an opportunity for you to move along......

Al

Edited March 14, 2019 by alsfarms
clairty (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

I watch EBAY, from time to time, and happened on this Locomobile air gauge gauge.  I studied and finally decided to purchase this gauge, paying a typical but high price for it, however I am happy with the purchase.  This one  is deeply etched and has a silver background.  This one is more suited for my 1909 and I plan to use this gauge on the fuel delivery system on the Locomobile.  Next, I will re-post, for comparison the slightly later air gauge that would be better suited for a 1911-15 car.  (If I didn't purchase the silver background gauge I would have had no issue using the gauge with white background).

Al

[alsfarms]

Here is the first gauge that I located and purchased for use on the 1909 Locomobile.  This one has a white background with some read details.  This one would be better suited for a 1911 - 1915 car.

Al

[JV Puleo]

Many years ago I gave one of those away. I seem to remember it had a black face with white lettering.

 

j

[alsfarms]

Good Morning Joe,  I also have one of the later back background and white lettering from a later Locomobile.  Fuel delivery is an interesting concept on the early cars.  In some ways, the early designs more simple and actually very reliable.

Al 

[alsfarms]

I am back on the spring eye issue and had thought seriously about using a spiral flute reamer to open up the eye hole ID to be more round then to custom machine a set of bearing bronze spring eye bushings.  I think that method may work but I am currently leaning towards the use of a properly sized roto-broach or 4 flute end mill to resize the hole ID's.  What is the consensus, on that subject, here?

Al

Edited March 24, 2019 by alsfarms
addition for clarity (see edit history)

[Gary_Ash]

How about a cheap expandable hand reamer?  They tend to dig and carve out chips, but if you are going to press in a bushing it may not matter too much.  I’ve had bad experience with trying to grab odd shaped parts and use powered reamers on them - but I lived to tell the tale.  Try Victor Machine for decent but affordable reams, drills, mill bits, etc.

[alsfarms]

Hello Gary,

I have a set of adjustable reamers but in my experience are best used to finish a hole that is very close to what it needs to be.  My spring eyes are very far from that and I can only see trouble if I put an adjustable reamer in the existing spring eye holes.  I think if I set, the spring, up on a milling machine, lock down the spring in a very positive fashion, I can get right over the hole as I would like.  (I want to favor a specific side of the hole so as not to weaken the run of the main leaf).  Then with nice slow cutting speed and plenty of cutting oil, run the end mill through the eye.  At least if I am telling the story that is how it will go and I will end up with a smiley face and ready to push in new bushings in what was once terrible spring eye holes.

Al