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Speedster Builds.............


alsfarms

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How are you speedster building fellows doing so far this winter?  Any weather related damage like what our UK and European friends have just dealt with?  Our winter here has been off and on and will continue so through  March.  That said, what is the progress on your projects or hunt for parts?  One update on my Wisconsin special is I am back working on preparation of wheel hardware in order to get a set of new wood installed and the resulting new wheels.  I also plan for a trip east to retrieve some pieces that will help push another project forward.  There was a bit of talk about potentially loosing the Bakersfield Swap Meet.  I think we are OK for this coming year and hope for the indefinite future.  I have also been working on the brass lean back windshield assembly for use on a 1909 Toy Tonneau project.  To me , the Toy Tonneau body type looks very nice with no windshield but the reality is this, I do not enjoy a driving trip where I eat bugs and get blown in the face all day....hence the installation of a correct era type windshield.  I will add a couple of pictures of that unrestored assembly.  Share your speedster updates.

Al

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  • 1 month later...

Ok....Coronavirus is forcing us to live a new lifestyle, sequestered at home.  With all the extra time we are compelled to stay quietly at home, while this scourge passes, what do you each have going on in your shop?  I am getting underway for modifying the wheel  hubs for the American-LaFrance speedster project, from being more truck like to a more dainty automobile design.  I will be cleaning up, making a template for drilling new retaining bolt holes on a smaller bolt circle, (after plug welding the original holes).  I will then turn down the OD.  The wheel centers will be then sent out, along with the 28" rims I have, for new wood to be installed.  What a mouth full.  I have a new set of nice,  PGA 28" tires to install.  I should at that time truly have a rolling running gear.

Al

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  • 3 weeks later...

I am using some  Cronavirus quiet time and am trying to figure out, mathematically, what size radiator would be needed to effectively cool an early engine.  In this case a "T" head Wisconsin four cylinder with a CID of 727.  Could someone speak up and share your knowledge?

Al

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Here you go... Text begins at the bottom of page 69 and continues to page 70.

The cooling area is dependent on the type of core used. Easily the most efficient is what the author of this book calls a "tubular" radiator although other authors refer to it as a honeycomb. It's the radiator made by soldering several hundred tubes with ends expanded...the type of radiator RR used as well as many other expensive cars. It is based on an 1898 or 99 patent by Wilhelm Maybach and was the original radiator core adopted with the famous Mercedes "60."

 

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The easiest thing to do would be to just take the dimensions from some other vehicle that used the same engine. Figuring radiator capacity and water pump output was far more complicated then than it is today because no method of regulating the water temperature had been devised. Now, if your radiator has excessive capacity, a thermostat will control the flow. Because these hadn't been developed, and the engine designer had no control over the ambient temperature, almost all pre-WWI cars were cooled.

 

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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It’s interesting how things have changed in modern cars. I just read a recent discussion of radiators that claimed 1/3 of the combustion energy goes into mechanical output, 1/3 out the exhaust pipe, and 1/3 into the cooling water. The biggest difference was that 1 square inch of radiator per horsepower was enough. It seems like 500 square inches per hp is way too much, and bore x stroke x cylinders x 200 is also way over the top. An area of 20,000 sq in is more than 4 sheets of plywood. Two to four rows of core and 20” x 20” area should be plenty for a 40 hp car.

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All the comments here I think are spot on. From another angle in this very important topic, down here in Aussie land our cars tend to get a little hot in summer/ stop start conditions. Probably much like Yuma Arizona. . Many of us all tend to raise the compression ratio for more HP and to aid the slow combustion of modern fuel in low compression engines. A topic on its own. . The  old radiators tend to struggle a bit. Some put modern cores in place. This increases surface area. Problems arise when the old fan can’t pull the air through the fine fins....So you get a bigger fan. You can go down the electric fan route, which when fitted also obstructs the frontal area. And so on. The important thing to remember is it is about heat exchange. You have to get the happy medium between surface area and  constant draft through and if you can, over the engine. No matter how big you make the radiator it won’t work without draft. The car will only take longer to overheat. 

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Hello Fred,

Where in Oz do you hail from?  My wives mother and all that family are Sydney folks.  Are you a speedster guy?  If so what are you building or driving?  I am currently thinking of using a modern 3  or 4 row core behind the original fascia of a square cellular radiator.  I suppose that is a compromise but I do not want a heating issue!  I am from the arid west high mountain desert area of the US so ambient heating is an issue like you described.   I actually have two speedster type projects waiting.  One is the subject, more or less, of this blog.  It is based on an early American-LaFrance but is powered by a Model M Wisconsin 4 cylinder "T" head engine.  It is surely the big brother of the Stutz Wisconsin engine at 727 CID.  The second project is a British inspired Special that is based on an Alvis TA-21.  Share whats going on down under.

Regards,

Al

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Hello Al. I haven’t got a speedster, only a Stutz speedway 4 . Also a BB  8 cylinder both are work in progress. The BB I have made some large inroads with this covid 19 situation. There is a silver lining somewhere. I’m from the S E of Melbourne, out in the ‘sticks’ a bit fortunately. Regarding  temperatures, more so than ever before, we seem to get more adverse weather. In particular , hotter. 2 days  last year reached 123’ f in Melbourne. And we are in the cooler place.   When in Yuma at Xmas time I chatted  to locals about 118’f. You guys know about it too. .... the upshot is that though we won’t be driving in these temps’ everyday the old cars weren’t really designed for it..   English cars are another topic..  The BB radiator is 90 years old and made from brass. Lovely as it looks it leaks and like all brass radiators of this era are at the end of their life. Chemically, the zinc has separated from the copper. I’ve fitted a modern type core in place with a honeycomb facia, (still working on that!) .. The other problem with old car cooling systems are they are very scaly inside. Getting them spotlessly clean is hard work, but essential. Waste of time seeking the best size radiator with a dirty system. I work on refrigeration systems, one part in particular ,condensers. Hence my comment about draft through radiator. If I needed to size a radiator I would base it on the original size (surface area) and then on your HP output second. Compare some different cars/trucks of that size HP/torque. Regarding draft, over on the Dodge forum is a long discussion about not using old cracked fans.. over there it is mentioned use of modern ‘Flexi fans’ . These pump well at idle and low speeds when you need them. I’ll probably go this way. The Stutz fan has a tendency to self destruct. A friend here had it happen; $8-9000 later for a new honeycomb. Sorry Al, I’ve rambled on a bit again. I’ll blame cabin fever !!! Keep working on that speedster. Stay well. Fred. 

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Hello Fred,

You certainly do have a "factory" speedster with the Speedway 4.  Was this project an early import to Oz?  I enjoy the history of our projects, when we know some of it!  What year is the BB?  Could you post a picture or two of the Speedway?  I enjoy Stutz but will probably never own one...my pockets are two flat!  You mention Melbourne, one of my favorite TV PBS shows is a mystery series about a Doctor Turner who helped to solve crimes.  Yuma Az. is south of me about 10 hours and yes hotter.  My area is high arid desert, (4200 ft elevation).  Summer high temps are around 108 deg F.  Winter lows can be  -30 deg F with a foot of snow.  Our annual rainfall is between 7 and 14 inches....DRY.  Keep you head down and out of the way of the Coronavirus Pandemic.

Regards,

Al

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Hello Fred,

I forgot about the "Miss Fisher Murder Mysteries".  I followed that series also and wish PBS would air more of them!  Have you posted pictures here on the AACA forums?  If you have good!  If not it is a "piece of cake" to post pictures.  You need to have a photo file on your computer to post pictures from, that is the easiest way.  Do you use a smart phone that has photo capabilities?  The smart phone is a good tool and I am mostly a computer literate.....but I do mess around until I can get it right!  I am anxious to see your Speedway project and you BB also. 

Al

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I was just looking at a picture of the beast of Turin. This is a S76, 300 HP Fiat car of around 1911. It has a monster motor but a very small surface area radiator. As mentioned above, there are several ways to reach optimum cooling. There is surface area of radiator, type of radiator, size of tube, type of pump, flow of air, etc etc. No novice would ever dream that radiator would cool that motor but the car exists today and is driven extensively.

 

Duray | Gettin' A Li'l Psycho On Tyres

Edited by AHa (see edit history)
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Here is another interesting radiator set up. These cars were built to run flat out, at maximum output, generating maximum heat, yet the radiator is much smaller than it is expected to be and partially shrouded. Using common sense, how is this car cooled? The answer is obviously found in the fact that the car is running flat out, with maximum air flow. The engineering adage, form follows function, makes me think this contraption was added because it was cooling too well.

 

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  • 1 month later...

Thanks for the reference to Old Motor.  I will check out the videos of S76.  I will also post a few pictures of yet another good possibility for a Speedster  engine.  I have just acquired a 1916 Riker (Locomobile) truck engine.  This one has a bore of 4-1/4 and stroke of 6.  It is rated, as is at 42 hp.  It was likely the last refinement of the Locomobile four cylinder engine, long stroke, manganese bronze crankcase, five main bearings and full pressure oiling.

Picture 1

 

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Here is a clip that shows the 300 hp Fiat Beast of Turin running.  This clip does make the hair stand up on the back of your head to think of what this car represents and when it was built and run!  This is the ultimate SPEEDSTER/RACER.  I bet it was a brute to handle!

Al

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Lets have more information, what it is?  It looks like a flat head 6 with a nice intake induction system.  Looks like a roadster or touring cowl, but I can't tell what.  I also like the looks of the Hudson!  And lurking further back is a coupe of some type.  Nice picture to bait us all and I, for one, have taken your bait!  Now reel us in with more information.  Looks like some fun stuff going on in your shop.

Al

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The speedster project is a 1925 Hudson chassis, radiator, and grille shell. The cowl section is late teens Hudson, and the engine is a Hudson Hornet, with three Rochester 2G carbs on a custom tunnel ram intake, and custom equal length tube headers. The trans is a T89 Borg Warner three speed with overdrive. The rest of the body will be hand made. Next to the speedster is a 52 Hudson coupe with a real Hudson 7X engine and dual range Hydro. Then a 29 Hudson coupe. The blue roof is my 41 Hudson drag racer. It has a 353 cubic inch Hudson flathead six with two Holley 2300 2bbl carbs on an Edmunds intake. 727 torqueflyte trans. It's been a race car since 1965. It runs 14.60's at 93mph. Not in view, but in the building, are a 1942 Hudson woodie wagon in need of everything, my wife's 1940 Hudson daily driver (Hornet power with a 700r trans), and my current active project, a 54 Hudson coupe that will be my daily driver when completed.

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Nice to hear form a true Hudson guy.  How close to running is your speedster?  Does your wife like to drive a heavy older car?  Good for you enjoying the Hudson hobby.  Do you have any You Tube clips of your drag car running?  If you do, how about posting one here so we can enjoy some real effort for Hudson speed!  One of my neighbors down the street was a Hudson guy and had several from the late 40's and early 50's.  A couple of them are still in the area, but sadly not in my yard.  Can you explain the relationship that was with Essex and Hudson?  I know of a few Essex super 6 pieces.

Al

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The speedster isn't close to running. The engine is just mocked up on the frame rails. I may end up using a spare 29 frame I have. It has parallel rails, and will be easier to shorten if I decide it needs it. I've never done a you tube video. If your neighbor was in the Hudson club, I may know him. I've been in the club since 1974 ( I was 12). My wife really enjoys her car. Surprisingly enough, It is not that heavy... Her 1940 2 door sedan weighs 3300#. our 1936 4 door weighs 3280# (1400 pounds on the front axle, 1880# on the rear... that's right nearly 500# heavier in the back), and my race car, the 41 coupe weighs 2700. Essex started production in 1919 with an F head four cylinder. They were a fantastic car and power plant. I had a touring for a few years. I drove it quite a bit. I made the 170 mile round trip to San Diego quite often, and a couple of 500 mile round trips to Laughlin, Nv. as well. It would run 60-65 MPH all day long. The only modification from stock was the glass pack that dumped below the front seat, and 34" tall tires. (stock was 32). Essex was Hudson's economy car.

Here is a photo of my race car at Irwindale. The 1919 Essex I had. My 29 coupe.

IMG_0056[1].JPG

IMG_0698[1].JPG

IMG_0286[1].JPG

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Thanks for the information.  It is also good to hear of another enthusiast that is keen a certain Make and makes it happen!  See if your smart phone has the ability to do a video clip.  If it does, skip You Tube and just post the clip like you would the pictures and we would get to hear your Drag car.   If you know of any early frames for a pre 1920's Essex give a holler.  You must live in sunny southern Cal.

Al

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As I recall, the Essex frame is very straight with no damage or rust. It is at my patents house, about 15 miles away. I will get over there sometime this week and get some photos for you. I thought I might do his and hers speedsters, but, truth be told,  I have enough projects. It would be good to see someone use this frame. It is a great foundation to build on.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/25/2020 at 8:47 AM, alsfarms said:

Thanks for the reference to Old Motor.  I will check out the videos of S76.  I will also post a few pictures of yet another good possibility for a Speedster  engine.  I have just acquired a 1916 Riker (Locomobile) truck engine.  This one has a bore of 4-1/4 and stroke of 6.  It is rated, as is at 42 hp.  It was likely the last refinement of the Locomobile four cylinder engine, long stroke, manganese bronze crankcase, five main bearings and full pressure oiling.

Picture 1

 

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Now that's a interesting engine! Great find! Too wide for my Staver sub frame chassis, but it might fit in my spare 1914 Buick big 6 frame.

 

Greg

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Hello Greg,

I thought you had an engine for use in the Staver?  Was the Staver originally a 4 or 6?  If I choose to use this Riker engine, in a future project, I would need to narrow the "bridge" type motor mounts to allow fitment into a car chassis.  (Not a big deal).  I have a two spark Delco four cylinder distributor that would work nicely on this engine.  Did you see the Buick engine for sale on the HCCA parts for sale?  Is your Buick a 54?

Al

Edited by alsfarms
spelling (see edit history)
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Hi Al, I have about 1/2  of the correct Teetor Hartley , mono block, T head, 4 Cyl. Staver cataloged a 6 right at the end of production but none are known to have survived. Possibly they didn't even produce any.

No crankcase , oil pan, timing gears, cam's, cam followers, water pump. Still looking , but if I can find a suitable  substitute engine I would probably go that route. Yes, a 1914,  54 / 55. But very incomplete.

How wide a frame are the bridges intended for ?

Greg

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
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Hello Greg,

What is the bore and stroke of your partial engine assembly?  Is that engine related to the engine used by Mercer?  This Riker engine has a width of 33" between the "bridge type motor mounts.  It would be close but doable to narrow them in order to facilitate fitment into and automobile chassis.

Al

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No, nothing at all like Mercer.   It is almost the same as what was used in American Underslung's middle sized model, the Tourist.  4 1 /2 x 5, B. & S. I have been told that the engine used in the Underslung's have the mounting bosses cast at a different level than the engines used in conventional frame cars, Staver, Pilot,  Auburn ( one year only } and a couple of others.

But I have not seen a side by side comparison to prove or disprove.

 

Greg

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Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
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