Jump to content

1919 Buick Roadster


Recommended Posts

NZ Buick,

I am going to go ahead and give you the detailed timing procedure now so that you will not have to take some things apart to get the result you are wanting.  You can do this with the engine in the frame or on a stand - either way will work.  Everything works off the number one cylinder.  You will want to base everything off the number one cylinder intake valve.  If you will install the valve cage and pushrod minus the sealing ring (you will want to remove the cage to check for TDC of the piston) you can rotate the crankshaft to the TDC of the piston and work forward from there.  You will want to have the pushrod installed to verify that the intake valve is in proper relation to the piston.  Verifying crankshaft gear and camshaft gear teeth marks are in proper position will be the very first order of business.  Once you are in the proper positions of the piston and camshaft you can go to the starter/generator unit and turn the distributor input so that the rotor is positioned to the number one terminal in the distributor cap.  The timing gear case cover will be removed  so as to verify the gear marks.  By going through these steps you can get the engine timed close enough to get it started.  There is adjustment in the rotor that can be done to get the timing adjustment lever on the steering wheel to operate properly if that is needed.  Once the starter/generator unit has been removed from the engine the odds are pretty good that the distributor drive will have been moved.  The fact that these old engines used a starter/generator like this makes it a little more complicated, but, if you will follow the procedure that I have told you about here, you should not have any problems at all.  Take your time and be very careful and things will fall right in place for you.  If you or anyone else has any questions about going through these steps, please feel free to ask.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it correct that the timing gears are marked with one dot on the crank gear that aligns in between two dots on the cam gear? With these lined up like so it appears to me looking at the cam lobes that cylinder one is beginning it’s intake stroke and cylinder six is just past TDC on its power stroke. In other engines I have mucked around with the timing gear marks are usually a true TDC.

989F6BE4-96C2-438E-BD92-4795FF1D31FE.png

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would put your front piston (#1) on TDC.  Ensure that you have a good mark on the flywheel, and a good pointer on the bell housing so that you know exactly when you are on TDC.  Is there an opening in the bell housing for the flywheel marks?  Could you put a timing light on it?   On the 1922 Dodge I have worked on, there are no flywheel marks or a hole, and this drives me crazy.  If it were my car, I would put a hole on the bottom of the bell housing and mark the flywheel so that I could see it with a timing light and it still looks like I have not modified anything.  Once your motor is all bolted together, you will wish you had a TDC mark on the flywheel if it is not there already.  The other thing I would do is calculate using the diameter of the flywheel and make a 7 degree before TDC mark on the flywheel.  This will come in handy later for easily setting up the motor ignition timing. 

 

When the Piston is on TDC on these Buick engines, the camshaft timing marks should "mesh", but I don't think that they mesh directly in the line between the camshaft and the crankshaft centerline as you would expect.    Turn the engine to a location just after TDC (shown here as the 1-6 line).  It is less than a tooth after TDC, so pretty easy to find.  This is the point at which the slack is out of #1 inlet valve valve clearance and the valve can begin to open.  I would use this method to check my timing.  This procedure is from the 1925 Buick Standard shop manual. 

 

     

IMG_6536.thumb.JPG.24e2c2bdf7aef70f6d7fab0e0c8602c9.JPG

Link to post
Share on other sites

So I’m gathering from these comments and from the marks on the flywheel which I have now found that the base timing setting for these engines is 7 degrees? I will be making up a piston stop and using it to confirm my true TDC no.1/6 and will time up my distributor from there. It will be slightly different for me as I have modified my distributor internally so it has electronic ignition rather than contact breaker points but the correct timing setting will still be the same I will just fine tune it with a vacuum gauge once I’m happy everything is ok.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, 7 degrees.  With electronic ignition.   Set the flywheel on the 7 degree mark.  Remove the coil wire from the distributor and use something to hold the end of the coil wire 1/4" away from the block.   Energize the coil.  Rotate the distributor where you lock it down as it just sparks.  

 

     1219901444_timingtheengine.jpg.fbbf52668b7b1a8d4227875d0e6385ed.jpg

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

These engines are timed for 7° AFTER TOP DEAD CENTER  (as mentioned in the manual) with the spark lever in the full retard position. That is if you do hand crank the engine to start it, it will not fire and snap back and hurt you as it would with a BTC setting.

The spark lever in the running position will give proper spark advance.

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah perfect! That answers everything for me! I was wondering  why the 7 degree mark is ATDC on the flywheel. I have used the Hall effect ignition pick up out of a mid 90’s ford falcon distributor inside of mine as a trigger and have also made the falcon cap and rotor fit. For the ignition module I have just used an external Bosch type European hall triggered module. I have used these components as they’re all readily available and very affordable here at the moment.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

yes I am converting to 12 volts to make the electronic ignition work. I have basically just grafted the top half of a falcon distributor onto the Buick one making sure I do everything in such a way that I don’t have to modify the Buick parts so should I have to I can return everything back to factory with ease.

8E8962E5-3BD5-4E1A-B5BA-A24353F4816E.jpeg

648708A0-57C3-40A3-8755-72CBCBCE6D79.jpeg

D33CBC33-468D-4D1C-B934-2F755265AC33.jpeg

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

The starter generator should have no worries operating on 12 volts I may limit it’s field current with a resistor on the generator side if it is too high but the starter side will just run on 12 volts as it is only used for short bursts. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont understand how a resistor in the generator field circuit of the generator will allow  it to pump out the 12V.  I am no EE so I am curious.

Right now I am in the process of rebuilding a spare SG for my '18.  Fairly robust unit, but parts are hens teeth I think.

 

I agree the starter shuld bo OK. Mnany 6v starters have live on 12v.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The generator itself doesn’t know what voltage it is. in a constant current charging system like this it’s the battery that is used to hold the voltage down at 6 volts if there was no battery or load on the system a generator is typically capable of producing 40-50 volts sometimes more sometimes less. The windings for 6 volt are twice as heavy and half as long as 12 volt as a general rule of thumb therefore the armature windings etc are more than capable of producing 12 volt but the field winding is half the length/resistance that it should be for a 12 volt unit which could cause it to heat up in operation at 12 volts therefore in THEORY if you double this resistance of this field circuit you should be able to run the generator in a 12 volt system without it even realising there is a difference. The big thing to remember is that the theory is not always correct as when heat is introduced ohms law goes out the window so to get the right resistor requires some experimenting. also as it is 12 volts the current output needs cutting in half by adjusting the third brush so if the book says to set it at 15amps then 6 or 7amps will be plenty.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The original owners manual manual for my '16 E-45 says:

 

".005" clearance between the valve stem and rocker arm, this is approximately the thickness of a heavy sheet of paper or light card.and is sufficient to allow for expansion of the valve stem when warm".

 

It does not specify whether warm or cold

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Another milestone reached, valve gear is all installed and have set the clearances to .005” I will check it again after some running and adjust it where needed. I had a great deal of trouble trying to free up the solid rollers on the lifters so they would spin smooth and freely and was worried about damaging cam lobes so have managed to find a ball bearing of very similar dimensions that I have managed to graft into place. Will be interesting to see if this is a success or not! Starter generator is dummied up so I can drill my water pump shaft for the coupling with the required clearance. Manifolds are ready to install I just have to make two exhaust port rings as they were missing. Marvel carb is cleaned up ready for reassembly and I have just got a vacuum tank off my father to rebuild or sneak an electric pump inside of.

B8A72410-590F-475D-ABB3-D37572E19DFF.jpeg

7B14779C-FE54-491C-9C8B-72D4316A1124.jpeg

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 weeks later...

Well with the engine to a stage that I’m happy with it I have moved onto stripping, cleaning and painting the chassis so I can soon have something to bolt it into! I have removed the first cross member ready to use as a pattern to make a new one and while I source some suitable steel to do so I have started dismantling the gearbox so I can give it a thorough clean out. Does anybody have suggestions as to how the rear universal yoke is removed from the square output shaft of one of these gearboxes? I have removed its retaining nut and washer but can’t seem to be able to remove the yoke!

0D4D5C35-39E4-4A89-B45A-1F944E469A2C.jpeg

E0F362EC-F4F4-437F-85E7-196720FA9D07.jpeg

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/12/2018 at 3:25 PM, NZ Buick said:

Marvel carb is cleaned up ready for reassembly and I have just got a vacuum tank off my father to rebuild or sneak an electric pump inside of.

 

 

I sent a Marvel carb to new zealand last year, was that you? How did it work out with that?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I ran into this same issue when going thru my transmission on the 1925 Standard.  I was not able to get the yoke off.   I tried using some small U bolt clamps and a steering wheel puller.  It was not going to budge, and I did not want to risk breaking anything.  I cleaned it all the best I could.  I did rotate it, and I did not feel any bumps.  Since the bearing seemed smooth,  I figured that it would be OK and the least of my worries right now, so I opted just to leave it alone and go with it.  My suggestion is give it a cleaning and don't try to disassemble it.   

This does mean that the output shaft will stay with the rear bearing and rear housing.  Notice that on the very front end of the output shaft is a brass disc.  This is a thrust washer between the input shaft and the output shaft.  It may also be laying inside the input shaft when you pull the back off the transmission case.  

Hugh

IMG_5950.thumb.JPG.5348e85512101a323638c2e71d6eb937.JPG

IMG_5911.thumb.JPG.809f34a17bf0622b770bced365e487fe.JPG

 

Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)
Link to post
Share on other sites

NZ Buick.

I have been thinking of this way to fix the lifters too,but I don’t think it will work.I think roller bearings could work but not ball bearings just becuse of the small area on a ball when press on it.

I think you shoud ask anyone to count on it!

Leif in Sweden

Link to post
Share on other sites

I am also in the court with Leif.  I hope it does not set you back too far to make a change, but it seems solid as original or roller is a better way to go.  The roller in the original solid lifters had a hardened outer wear surface from what I understand also.  The racing engines if there are ones with roller lifters, seem to be using roller bearings on rare occasion, but also mainly using solid steel.  So you have to deal with both the hardness of the outside of the roller, and the ability of the bearing itself to hold up.  I wonder if the surface of the roller is also completely flat across the surface or any convex shape to the surface?   One thing that I did notice on the cam and rollers on used engines was that the cam lobes were grooved down the center of the lobes.  On my very worn parts that I received, the cam was worn down much farther, and the rollers had the metal chipped off the very edges of the rollers where they were running into the cam journal that now had "sides".  A motor that was not given frequent oil changes, but it shows the stresses that are put on these parts after many years.   If all the springs and valves are in good shape, and the oil is changed frequently, it could be OK, but not as robust and forgiving if a valve were to stick.   

 

Hugh

841416885_Lifterwear.thumb.JPG.af93707a89fc58c22fe1c9bef5d73c7c.JPG

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/25/2018 at 3:07 AM, Morgan Wright said:

 

I sent a Marvel carb to new zealand last year, was that you? How did it work out with that?

Yes that was me you sent the carb to. It took plenty of soaking and a bit of heat to get apart but after a thorough clean out I’m hoping it will be good to go now! I just have to get an O ring for the adjustment needle in the bottom as I hear this is the way to remedy leaks.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that the longevity of a ball bearing in that application may not be any good but I’m of the opinion that with the tension of the valve springs in an old engine like this being relatively low (compared to modern engines) I have decided to give it a go anyway. My hope is that the shim washers I have used either side of the bearing are of a size that shouldn’t allow any balls to fall out into the sump and if I keep a close eye on valve clearances I will hopefully be able to catch one if it fails before it is too late!

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...
  • 6 months later...
On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 6:11 PM, NZ Buick said:

Hi Rod, That sounds about right. It appears I have acquired various Buick parts from various years which I am figuring out as I go. My intention is to try to piece together a 1918/19 roadster as best as I can with the parts I have available. Although this will result in a car that will never win prizes I hope to get a great deal of fun out of motoring it around. My biggest concern at this stage is the body woodwork side of things as I have next to no patterns and haven’t yet been able to find a same year Buick roadster I can look over and under to get a starting point. If this all proves too hard when I get to that stage my plan b is to make some sort of a speedster/special out of it all.

have just brought a 1918 e44 colonial bodied roadster from timaru from a deceased esate can help with wood work need to get in touch

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 7 months later...
  • 3 months later...
On 1/16/2020 at 5:18 PM, AussieBuick said:

Hi NZ Buick, 

 

how is is your restoration progressing ? 

 

Norm

 

Yes would love to see an update but fear we may not as @NZ Buick  last visited in June of last year

Link to post
Share on other sites

Relative to the discussion on roller lifters, on our '15 C-25 project the originals were worn out.  We ordered hardened drill guides custom made to order (ID, OD and width) for the rollers and off-the-shelf drill rod for the roller axles, both from McMaster-Carr.  First shot shows grinding down the ends of the roller axles, second shot the shows the new parts ready for intallation.

IMG_0445.JPG

IMG_0447.JPG

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...