kclark Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 (edited) I just took possession of the Dictator as it arrived safely from Indiana to North Carolina. I am trying to figure out the troubleshooting process for lights. They are not working (none of them) except the dash lights. I admit I did not try them when I went to look at the car originally. Where should I start and what to look for? Edited September 17, 2017 by kclark (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 Follow the electrickery and the wires. Is there any at the switch? Does it go to the light wire if you switch the lights on? Is there a fuse in there somewhere? Once the switch works, is there anything at the light? Bulbs OK? Also check the earth return from light to battery (through the bodywork). This is very often the problem: paint and corrosion products conduct poorly. Nothing working would perhaps indicate a problem either before or at the switch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keninman Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 Did this car come from Terre Haute? My dash, map and dome lights did not work nor did my brake lights when I got the car. The dome light was the contact for the bulb. Be real careful about taking the glass cover off. My brake lights were the switch under the floor, it is activated by the foot pedal but not the hand brake lever. My dash and map light are on a slider switch under the far left side of the dash. From what I can tell the main power to everything comes first to the ammeter. That is where I would start unless you can see that it works when running the engine. There is a current limiting relay to the right of your dash gauges but I believe this is only for the head lamps, tail and turn lamps. You can then start following power around. It looks like you have the same generator as me so the car should be a positive (+) ground on the frame, vs. a negative (-) on modern autos. Some key things to note. All lenses are glass. To remove the headlight lenses I first duct tape them to the housing, remove the screw and pull out from the bottom. I also fasten a moving blanket under them. I don't think you included a shot of the rear of the car but if it is like mine you have one brake / tail lamp on the driver's side. Be careful because when you try to take the lens cover off the glass lens will fall. Tape it and put something soft under it. There are just two screws that hold the brake switch on but I had to use a very short screwdriver if I remember right. I just cleaned the contacts up and it worked like new. Same with the dash / map light switch but it is a bit harder to get apart. You can always just jump the connectors on the switch to confirm or eliminate as a problem. Also here is a wiring diagram from GL Dictator's owner's manual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclark Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 5 hours ago, keninman said: Did this car come from Terre Haute? My dash, map and dome lights did not work nor did my brake lights when I got the car. The dome light was the contact for the bulb. Be real careful about taking the glass cover off. My brake lights were the switch under the floor, it is activated by the foot pedal but not the hand brake lever. My dash and map light are on a slider switch under the far left side of the dash. From what I can tell the main power to everything comes first to the ammeter. That is where I would start unless you can see that it works when running the engine. There is a current limiting relay to the right of your dash gauges but I believe this is only for the head lamps, tail and turn lamps. You can then start following power around. It looks like you have the same generator as me so the car should be a positive (+) ground on the frame, vs. a negative (-) on modern autos. Some key things to note. All lenses are glass. To remove the headlight lenses I first duct tape them to the housing, remove the screw and pull out from the bottom. I also fasten a moving blanket under them. I don't think you included a shot of the rear of the car but if it is like mine you have one brake / tail lamp on the driver's side. Be careful because when you try to take the lens cover off the glass lens will fall. Tape it and put something soft under it. There are just two screws that hold the brake switch on but I had to use a very short screwdriver if I remember right. I just cleaned the contacts up and it worked like new. Same with the dash / map light switch but it is a bit harder to get apart. You can always just jump the connectors on the switch to confirm or eliminate as a problem. keninman, Yes it did come from Terre Haute. My dash and map lights work. The brake, head lamps and dome don't. I do know that it is a positive (+) ground. I have removed some of the lamps just to be sure the bulbs were good. One bulb I know is bad. I do know that on the (not sure what the are actually called as I'm still waiting on my manuals) smaller lights on the cowl, one of them seems to have a bare spot on the wire. As each time we try to put the lamp back in, we here something in the car make a noise. And that brings me to another question. When getting into these smaller lights, what is the proper way to get to the bulb. Do you unscrew the screw in the back of the lamp which releases the bracket or should you be able to just pop of the lens ring? We unscrewed them and had difficulty getting them back on. We finally got the right one on by screwing the bracket back on and then got the lens ring to go back on properly. However the left one is not going back on properly. I've tried putting the bracket back on the chrome lens ring and then screw the bracket back on. Every time I can get the bracket on one side and then try to get the other side on but the first side pops out. I then tried putting the bracket back on and then putting the bulb, lens and ring back on the bracket but no go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclark Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 I got the light put back together. The bracket need to be adjusted. Where will I find the lighting switch?. I think I keep going past it when tracing wiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclark Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 Found it!!! Everything looks connected together. I don't know what the proper inspection technique is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keninman Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 (edited) The buzzing noise is an overcurrent relay. It should be just to the left of the gauges under the dash. I am not sure about the smaller lamps since my car, a standard sedan, lacks them Note, it is to the left as viewed from the back of the dash, or toward the passengers side of the car on mine. Edited September 12, 2017 by keninman clairification (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclark Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 Here is the wiring switch. It looks old but appears in good shape. I don't how to remove it or check it properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keninman Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 If your headlamps and tail / turn is like mine then you can simply disconnect where the cable enters the lamp. It is a twist lock. 1st does the over current buzz when you try all positions of the light switch. Mine from counterclockwise, parking lamps, off, low beam, high beam. You have 2 extra lights so I don't know how these work. The brake is always energized and only requires completing the circuit with the brake switch. The tail is on in all lighting positions. Your headlights look like Guide, Tilt Ray lamps very similar to mine. There is a #63 bulb in top that acts as a parking lamp. The headlamp bulbs are 1110 bulbs, Tinindian can help more with these. If you have a short circuit I imagine that the overcurrent will buzz every time you turn on the offending wire. If this happens with the lamps disconnected then start testing each contact to ground. Remember the bulb cannot be in the circuit because it will look to a multimeter like a dead short, the heat of the filament acts as a resistor. note: my digital multimeter will not work on my car with the engine running, I cannot even get close to the car with it before it starts showing all kinds of strange readings. It works fine with the engine off though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclark Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 Dead battery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keninman Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Doesn't that make it hard to start Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclark Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 So I got a little farther, the park lights (lights on the cowl) are working after putting in new bulbs and the park light in the back works as well after new bulb. The headlights and the brake lights are not working. My ammeter does work when the car is running so no problems there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keninman Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 I can actually reverse the armored connector to my tail / brake light that will show if the bulb is okay. If it is then jump the connectors at the brake switch and see if it lights up. Then you need to clean the contacts in the switch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclark Posted September 13, 2017 Author Share Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) I have yet to find the stop switch. Is it wrapped up in a covering similar to the wires? How can I check (properly) the lighting switch for the headlights? According to the diagram there are 3 wires going to the headlights. Looking at your diagram again, I keep looking at the lighting switch. You do have 3 wires going to the headlights but I don't think I have tilt. If I do I don't know it. Edited September 13, 2017 by kclark (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keninman Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) I'll share my pics, the first is my headlamp switch with the cap off. I don't know what wire goes to what though. The second is one is my headlight lens. Next is a shot of the brake switch looking back from the starter then me pointing at the actuator from under the car. Shorting across the contacts on the switch will tell you if your light works but the switch is corroded. Mine was corroded. Number 5 is my headlight connector followed by my tail / stop lamp. The tail light has the same connector as he headlight with only two contacts that is why I can reverse it. Edited September 13, 2017 by keninman (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nvonada Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Every wire in your pictures has electrical tape wrapped around it. That does not mean the wiring is bad or incorrect. But it does mean it was messed with by someone. I would NOT leave the battery connected until you get the wiring sorted. That is a super cool car and it would be a shame if it burned up. For testing you should get a multimeter and learn to use it. It is not hard to use or expensive. Even a test light would be big help. Electric work is daunting at first but once you learn a few basic rules and concepts it is not that complicated. Nathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclark Posted September 14, 2017 Author Share Posted September 14, 2017 My lights WORK!!! It turns out that the steering wheel "center" with the advance, close and the lights, the lever for the lights must all be rotated counter-clockwise. I believe that the there is a loose nut or something going on. If I rotate the lever until it stops and then rotate the center then the lights come on. Still working on the brake light though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclark Posted September 14, 2017 Author Share Posted September 14, 2017 UPDATE. For the brake lights, I jumped the brake switch and the brake light comes on. I believe the brake switch is bad. When I pull the "plunger" out to complete the circuit my ohms meter shows nothing, so that tells me there is something wrong with the brake switch. And once I can figure out how to upload a video of my headlights to explain those I'll do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keninman Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 That is difderent than mine. It should come apart so you ca clean the contacts though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclark Posted September 14, 2017 Author Share Posted September 14, 2017 16 minutes ago, keninman said: That is difderent than mine. It should come apart so you ca clean the contacts though. I wound tearing into it and one of the contacts on the inside needed to be cleaned. I just finished up with it. 2 hours later, I got 'er DONE!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclark Posted September 14, 2017 Author Share Posted September 14, 2017 Headlights Video It's a little rough as I do have 1 headlight burned out. I had to upload this in 2 parts as it was too big to do it in one full video but hopefully you get the idea. Part 1.mov Part 2.mov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keninman Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 (edited) Your steering controls are much nicer than mine. There is nothing on my wheel to turn like yours does. I am wondering if whatever is supposed to be locking it in place has not come loose. I would take the cap off of the headlight switch and have someone move the lamp lever while you watch the actuation. Perhaps the whole switch is rotating on you. Mine is secured so I cannot move as far as I can tell. Steering Wheel Controls on YouTube Edited September 14, 2017 by keninman (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
29jester Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 Looks to me like the headlight switch is put together wrong which is easy to do. I will take pictures of my '29 Commander to see if this helps. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclark Posted September 15, 2017 Author Share Posted September 15, 2017 (edited) From what I can tell, the lighting switch at the bottom of the steering column does not rotate so that should be a good thing. That would mean that the switch itself at the top of the steering wheel is rotating possibly from the top of it. What is the proper way to get into the steering wheel. There are 4 screws under the steering wheel. I assume that I remove those 4 and that starts the disassembly process. After more searching, I found this thread: http://forums.aaca.org/topic/168263-1928-ge-dictator-throttle-spark-and-light-levers/?tab=comments#comment-820933 About halfway down there are 4 pages that were graciously uploaded by Stude8 that tell the process of removing the steering wheel and the levers. I just hope after tearing into that I can figure out what the problem is and if there is actually something broken that I can either repair the part or find a new one. Edited September 16, 2017 by kclark (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclark Posted September 17, 2017 Author Share Posted September 17, 2017 On 9/14/2017 at 9:20 PM, 29jester said: Looks to me like the headlight switch is put together wrong which is easy to do. I will take pictures of my '29 Commander to see if this helps. I'd be real interested in seeing this pictures. I was able to loosen the steering wheel just enough to see a little behind it as I didn't disassemble the entire column from bottom to top. All of the levers and baseplate seem to be intact. while I had things loosened, all levers seem to function/move properly although I don't seem to have positive stops on the light lever control. Do anyone know what part actually keeps the whole cap dial, baseplate and levers from rotating entirely? I know I'm missing/not seeing something but just can't figure out what. Are there in members in the Charlotte, NC area that has taken a steering wheel apart be up for helping me with this??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
29jester Posted September 17, 2017 Share Posted September 17, 2017 Originally the outer tube was pressed on the outer bas plate so it was rigged an not able to move and over the years these come loose. As for the reason it doesn't completely rotate is as long as everything is hooked up there is only so much movement in the cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclark Posted September 19, 2017 Author Share Posted September 19, 2017 I think I found the problem after getting the levers and tubes out. The entire baseplate was apparently broken and removed and that's why it moves. From the article that Bill Cannon wrote about getting everything out and fixed, reproductions can be bought. Where can they be bought? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keninman Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 (edited) Since it was a funeral coach the owner may not have cared about the lights working and from what I understand unless you plan to use the hand crank you do not need the spark retard lever. The previous owner of the one I have never aimed to take the car out after dark so they had modified tail/turn bulbs for headlights. The base plate in the pictures looks like it was cast from the same crappy pop metal that the carburetor and interior door hardware were. From the pic, if you could get the dimensions it would be a simple task for any competent machine shop to replicate. From what you have they can get the depth of the spacers, from the column they can get the dimension of the housing. Show them this pic and I'll bet they can make you one. Edited September 20, 2017 by keninman (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclark Posted September 20, 2017 Author Share Posted September 20, 2017 16 minutes ago, keninman said: Since it was a funeral coach the owner may not have cared about the lights working and from what I understand unless you plan to use the hand crank you do not need the spark retard lever. The previous owner of the one I have never aimed to take the car out after dark so they had modified tail/turn bulbs for headlights. The base plate in the pictures looks like it was cast from the same crappy pop metal that the carburetor and interior door hardware were. From the pic, if you could get the dimensions it would be a simple task for any competent machine shop to replicate. From what you have they can get the depth of the spacers, from the column they can get the dimension of the housing. Show them this pic and I'll bet they can make you one. The question is how do I make sure that everything lines up correctly to go into the steering column. Also if this plates screws and sandwiches the lever assembly, isn't it also brazed to the steering column? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keninman Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 I don't think you can braze pot metal. It looks to me like the protrusions are what held it in position with the steering shaft tube. I was wondering if you looked further into the column if you would not find the pieces of it broken into small bits. That zinc pot metal is a lot more fragile than modern die casting with aluminum or magnesium alloys. In the pic of the reproduction it looks like the plate was machined and then the spacers brazed on. I have found that with my 29 the tolerances are not what you would expect from even a 1960s automobile so there is a lot of room for error. Go by a local machine shop, show them what you have and the pic and see if they think they can machine it. You might have to provide some more specific measurements or haul the column to them but I am betting they can do it. I have a friend who does this as an armature and I am sure he could but that is a long way from NC. Of course the car started out like 40 miles from him, go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclark Posted September 20, 2017 Author Share Posted September 20, 2017 Who did your baseplate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keninman Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 12 minutes ago, kclark said: Who did your baseplate? My steering column is much simpler than yours. I have not had it apart and will not unless I run into trouble. Like the pics I posted earlier I have not center to turn. Yours looks more like the ones used on the higher end Dictators or Commanders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclark Posted September 20, 2017 Author Share Posted September 20, 2017 (edited) So is the "outer" tube still in the steering column you think? When I took the assembly out, there were 3 tubes, the lights being the center, the middle was advance spark I think, and then the 3rd being close I think. If it is the actual outer tube, how do I get it out? There is a nut under it but not sure it that would be correct or not. Surely somebody on the forum knows. Stude8 knew but he hasn't been active for 2 years on here. UPDATE: After looking back over everything I realized the picture below shows the outer tube of the assembly without the baseplate that was broken off. I have pulled out the outer tube and I now have a baseplate being made. Edited September 21, 2017 by kclark Update (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclark Posted October 28, 2017 Author Share Posted October 28, 2017 I now have a new baseplate thanks to Steven Munts. My question in looking at the attached picture, do I cut off this steel plate from the outer tubing before welding the new baseplate to the tube? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kclark Posted October 31, 2017 Author Share Posted October 31, 2017 (edited) Does anyone have a clue about this that can advise me? Well I finally found my answer which is leave the steel disc on the outer tube, However when I was trying to braze the 2 pieces together, the baseplate fell and 2 of the tubes which were HOT, they came off. They are luckily not broke but will have to be brazed back on. I don't think it's a big deal just more time. I think I will enlist the help of someone a lot more knowledgeable than I for the finished product. I just have to find that someone. Edited November 1, 2017 by kclark UPDATE (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
President8 Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 Does anyone have a copy of the articles Bill Cannon wrote in 1980s Antique Studebaker Review? I've just taken the horn assembly out of my 29 President, as I need to replace the wiring which was shorting out, the protective sheath has worn away after 89 years...... So I have the long tube out, I'm wondering how to disconnect the end so I can run new wire. Seems to be 'swaged' or brazed on. Help please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 15 hours ago, President8 said: my 29 President Suggest you start your own topic. A 1929 President is not a 1929 Dictator, which is what this topic is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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