Taylormade Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Can you post a picture of the old and new flare for comparison? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Please, I am curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Original is in center obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Wrong flare? 45o instead of 30o? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylormade Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Something isn't right. The new lines have much deeper centers. Spinnyhill has a point, but I did 45 degree double flares on my 32 Dodge Brothers and had no problems. I didn't think they used 37 degree back then, especially on American cars.. Some info here may help. http://www.fedhillusa.com/?page=flare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Almost look like crushed "Bubble Flare" ends. I've made up many brake lines for all Mopars 30's thru 60's. All 45 degree flare in steel and stainless. No issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Great info everyone! I will buy new lines where I can see the ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Right, I make all mine 45 °. Never an issue, but I've never done a 30s or earlier Chrysler., yet.... Bubble flare is just the first step of making a double flare, i.e. stop before inserting the 45 ° cone and you have a bubble flare. Do you have a FLAPS (friendly local auto parts store) that you can stop in and look at the flares on the steel tubing rack? Those should be 45° double flare steel, well, excepting the bubble flares, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 You are making mighty heavy weather of a simple brake job. Do you have a factory manual? Sounds like you need to take it, and the car, to a competent mechanic and get the job done right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Special Bubble flare tube ends are used on some Japanese and European cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 I removed all the brake lines and re-flared the existing ends. I filled the master cylinder and slowly depressed the brake pedal several times, then checked all the fittings. I still have three tiny leaks and cannot tighten them any more. A did have two more but they sealed after one more attempt to tighten them. I hate the thought of cutting off the ends to flare them. Tomorrow is another day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylormade Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 You may want to check the male end of the fitting that the flare rests against. If the surface is nicked or even slightly damaged, you can get leaks. Keep at it, you'll get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Brake lines have been bled twice now. Can't get firm brake pedal much more than 1-2" from floor and doesn't remain long. Drove the car up and down our driveway and it will stop but not like it should. I can get a little more pedal if I pump it a few times but will lose it again after it sits awhile. I still see a drop or two of fluid from two fittings. I can't tighten them any more and can't replace the fittings as the lines are just about the right length. Leaks are so minute. Wish there was some sealer out there at this point. I should still have at least 2-3" of pedal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Have you adjusted the brakes? If they are way out of adjustment the pedal will go a long way down before actuating the brakes - it has to move a lot fluid to push the pistons out enough. Sorry, no sealers available! Tight doesn't necessarily mean sealing, as you are finding out! You might have to look at each end and each nipple it seals on to check for dirt and any nicks in the nipple end. I feel your pain - many of us do. We have been there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Yes, by all means be sure the brakes are adjusted prior to bleeding or you will never get a firm pedal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Back brake shoes have no tolerance as I had to sand them to form in the drums. As for the front, I have them adjusted so they just drag a slight bit without binding. At one point, I would step on the brake and the left front would lock up. I think I have the fronts correct. I added a few turns on the master cylinder but don't want to damage that. I may try to bleed it one more time. I did take the cap off the master cylinder, and oh so careful depressed the brake pedal. I done this about six times and the fluid went down. There were no visible leaks to allow for that fluid. This says that maybe there is an air pocket somewhere? We will try again tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) Sometimes it takes a few times around the car to bleed all of the air out. Not to insult you, but are you starting the bleeding from the farthest wheel cylinder from the master cylinder and working your way closer? Right rear, left rear, right front and finally the left front? Edited October 6, 2017 by keiser31 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Yes, that's the way they were bled. May try again one more time tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 (edited) You will need to pump most fluid out of the longest line to ensure there is no air and least out of the shortest. Is the pedal soft = air? If so, maybe we can help with your technique? When I bleed mine I only do three full strokes with the pedal before locking off the bleeder and adding fluid to the reservoir. This ensures no air goes in at the master cylinder coz it has run out of fluid. I think I worked this out by trial and error and dipping the cylinder to see how much fluid was in there. Another little trick I use. The drain line from the bleeder goes UP then loops over and down into the jar. This way, the line is full of fluid against the cylinder and if any is pulled back in, it is brake fluid and not air. Edited October 5, 2017 by Spinneyhill (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Quote Solid Gold Leaks are so minute Any leak means the system can not hold pressure. It has to be absolutely dry to function properly. I mentioned copper gaskets for flare fittings in an earlier post. They are useful for making worn inverted flare fittings seal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 I readjusted the front brakes and now have 2 inches of pedal. We will bleed the system one more time.Then......I will get brave and go for a spin around the block and hope I don't end up on someones lawn. This will give me a chance to see if it springs any leaks. I see a drop of fluid on two fittings but nothing on the floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 I didn't read back, but at one point you mentioned that you were going to do this brake job and replace the master cylinder later. Is there a new or rebuild master in this system now? Might explain losing pedal after sitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 New master cylinder. Everything now is new. We just finished final bleed of system. Pedal still at about 2-3 inches. Will take for ride early in morning when little traffic out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Is there free play in the pedal before it works the cylinder? Do you mean the brakes work when the pedal is 2-3" from the floor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Yes. Free play down to until pedal is about 3 inches from the floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 I just went out to put the car in the garage. Pressed down on the brake and it went all the way to the floor. Let up and done it again and got some pedal back. Third time was back to normal, 2-3 inches. This is nuts! I'm beat on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 It is leaking somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said: It is leaking somewhere. Yes....that and more bleeding. Did you by chance bench bleed the master cylinder? http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/brakes/0509sc-bench/ Edited October 5, 2017 by keiser31 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 No. I did not bench bleed the master cylinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 I have never done that and my brakes have come up alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 Went out this morning and checked all fittings. No drips on floor, no sighs of leaks. Stepped on brake and it went pretty much to the floor but I could feel a little pressure. I tried it again and now I had pedal. The third time I was back to about 3 inches. I just tried it again after about 3 hours and still the same. Maybe still air in the line somewhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 Sounds like air is trapped in the system. Are you bleeding them by starting with farthest from the master cylinder first then next farthest etc? That is supposed to help with getting out the most air. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 That is the way I have always done it. Three times now but I think your right TerryB, there has to be air somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 (edited) Boy, you keep bringing back memories for me! Not all of them were positive. Edited October 6, 2017 by TerryB (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 If the fluid level drops down slightly when pushing the pedal down and comes back up when releasing said pedal there is either air in the system or... the shoes don't fit the drums 100%. The shoes might be not be centered in the drums too. The shoes will flex to try to fit tight against the drums causing a soft pedal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 We took the car out today for the first time just down the road. Brakes worked. Pedal was low at start but came back first time . Problem now is back brakes so tight that car labored several times at slow speeds. I have to take drums off again and sand a bit more. I can't sand too much as they are new shoes and not that thick of a shoe. I will pick up more adhesive backed paper tomorrow. What will I do for fun when this is all fixed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 2 hours ago, solidgold56 said: What will I do for fun when this is all fixed? C'mon over and help me with MY brakes.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Were the brakes not tight when you started driving, but got tighter as you drove? That is not adjustment! It can be caused by the master cylinder piston not returning to the top of the stroke when your foot is off the pedal. If they were tight to begin with, did you adjust the shoes to contact the drum, or had to sand to get the drum on over the shoes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 I had to sand to get the drum over the shoe. These shoes were from a vintage mopar supplier and measured .018. Factory was .011 if I am correct. I have the adjustment and zero. If I adjust the master cylinder, won't I loose more pedal? I did add two turns from where it was originally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curti Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Take the shoes and drums to a brake shop and get the shoes 'arched' to the drums. When the master cylinder is relaxed, the compensating port should not be covered by the piston. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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