Guest solidgold56 Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 Hello to all. I am new here and need help! I purchased a 1948 Dodge club coupe at an auction which has been in storage for over 40 years. It has under 30,000 miles. It had been serviced and runs great. However, after driving it a few times the left front wheel pulled very slightly when stopping. Then, this week, the right wheel done the same only big time! Then it would make a loud clunk, and freeze up. I pulled off both front drums and it was disgusting. Needless to say, I replaced all four cylinders. I bled both front wheels and they work fine. Now however, if I wait a bit and push the brake slowly, it goes to the floor. No leaks anywhere. Today I thought I should check the rear brakes. One is missing the bleed screw which is broken off inside. the other I can't get the drum off even with a wheel puller. I am sure I will find my problem with the rear brakes. Someone even lost the square key to lock the drum in place and jammed a chopped off bolt in the key way all the way in. Any idea as how to get off a frozen rear drum. I sprayed the area with wd40 to set overnight. Both drums are frozen to the spindle. Thanks!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 You need a real big, strong puller to get those hubs off especially ones that have had 50 years to grow together. Get a big enough puller and it will come off. Pro tip, when you take off the castle nut put it back on, backwards, flush with the end of the axle. This does 2 things. It saves the end of the shaft from getting mushroomed or damaged, and it prevents the hub from launching across the shop like a guided missile. The brake problem sounds like a bad master cylinder. If they are worn they can leak internally and do just what you describe. Best answer is to do a complete brake job. The original brakes are fine, they are state of the art for the times and plenty good enough for normal use. They are a bit tricky to adjust properly but once set up they are no harder to adjust than the cheaper brakes used on other makes. Inspect the brake lines carefully, any rust, or cracks in the flex hoses and they should be replaced. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 I agree with Rusty! Classic failed master cylinder symptom. A big strong puller like this: https://www.amazon.com/OTC-7394-Universal-Hub-Puller/dp/B0002SRH60/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_263_tr_t_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=RWEWB5647PVXA6E1B87S will work. Shop around, and look for used also. Another trick is to tighten the puller and then let it sit overnight with force on it. You will need a BFH to go with this style tool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 (edited) Tool rental shops and some auto parts stores rent pullers. The bigger the better. A big 3 jaw that bolts onto the wheel bolts, the factory puller used by dealerships went on all 5. Edited September 10, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dictator27 Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 X3 If there are no leaks evident, this is definitely a bad master cylinder. Fluid is leaking past the rubber cup in the m/c under pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 If you get two of the same pullers, you can put 5 legs on the same puller ring. A tip from the Studebaker Forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 Thanks to everyone who responded. I have a friend who offered a larger heavy duty puller. I also will order a rebuild kit for the master cylinder along with two new wheel cylinders. I will give an update soon. Glad I found this site!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 After hours of spraying and heating the spindles, both drums are off. No damage but both wheel cylinders are gummed up. New ones on order along with new master cylinder. Gee. Antique cars are fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 4 hours ago, solidgold56 said: Gee. Antique cars are fun. Antique cars are not for the faint of heart or wallet!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Nice cars! I really do like old cars. I have a 1928 Ford "A" 4 door sedan, the Dodge, a 1962 Buick LeSabre 4 door and a 1935 Chevy 2 door street rod show car. It just seems that when something goes wrong it turns out to be a major project. I am glad I have this site for help! Thanks to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Just what is expected. DOT 3 or 4 brake fluid, sitting for years in a system = need to replace/rebuild all the wetted (or what was once wetted!) surfaces. I call this "sitting disease". Any car that sits will need brake system overhaul and fuel system overhaul. Just the fun of buying antique cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Mechanically activated brakes do not suffer from "sitting disease". That's why I prefer pre hydraulic vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Classic textbook case reminder not to trust a statement that car siting for awhile has been serviced, checked or inspected---EXPECT the seals and brake cyls to''ve been overlooked, and check them yourself or have them checked/replaced by someone RELIABLE..... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 OK...back to the nightmare! Starting to dislike this Dodge! New rear wheel cylinders arrived. Took a caliper and checked width, etc. looks identical to old ones. I put everything together and have been on this for two days trying to get the drums back on. Shoes are at minimum clearance on both left and right. I did notice that shoes, even though they are the same size, etc., do not match. They are fairly new. I am suspecting that they are not the correct ones for this car. Supposedly, this is the D-24. Maybe slightly different? I am not searching for a new set. More expense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 (edited) Your problem is because of the new w/cyl piston/pushrod length and piston cups bottomed out. It's also common that the linings new are too thick. Stock lining thickness is..180".otherwise the shoe linings might have to be cut down if too thick. There are two w/cyl pushrod lengths... some misc pics.....I once had to file a set of pushrods to get a set of shoes on...see picture.. The w/cyl piston height is different among different manufactures too as are piston cup heights... all will cause your issue. Make sure the shoe retracts tight to the rubber booy for lining clearance to drum and that the anchor bolt arrows point to each other on the rear cylinders or if on the front arrows point to the cylinders. This arrow position retracts the shoes 100%. Edited September 16, 2017 by c49er (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 C49er.....THANK YOU! This is what I thought. I did do something like this already, only I filed the slot on the shoes. I finally was able to get the drums on. Now my problem is both cylinders leaked during bleeding process. I was very careful not to file too much but now I can't seem to get a happy medium. I shimmed one shoe and now have this drum on, snug but on. I run the car in reverse for a minute or two and all seemed well. Now the drum is tight that I can't turn by hand. I haven't bleed the one yet. I will try turning it this morning as it was a bit warm. Today I will re-shim the other side and maybe have the same success with the other side. I almost was going to order new shoes, buy what if they have the same issue? I will update. Again, thanks for the pictures, they will be of great help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 I blame my current bald head on all the times I spent pulling out my hair trying to maintain the brakes on my 1937 Dodge pickup. This was long before the luxury of posting how-to questions on the Internet was possible. Your current brake related thread brings back those memories! Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 The wheel cylinder rubber cups can be pushed in so far so as to bottom out so they will not bleed out fluid or leak severely because the rubber cup is pushed 1/2 way over the fluid supply hole All caused by too thick of linings, mis-match of wrong pistons or push rods and rubber cups. Notice the rubber cup location on the green and red pistons..the cups are in the middle of the pistons, Your replacement wheel cylindrs have the cups at the bottom of the piston and can be bottomed out hard against the bore bottom being deformed and letingt fluid leak behind the cup. This was never a problem much until the modern chinese/ offshore replacement parts. Short push rods and linings no thicker tan .180" will let the modern chinese wheel cylinders work. A hassle for sure to get there some times! I have an shoe arcing machine so I never have any of these issues these day on these old lockheed brakes. Linings must be arced to match each drum diameter and no be thicker than .180". This will also make proper adjustment of the shoes quicker and a create hard firm pedal. Arrows on the anchor bolts then can generally be set at original factory settings too with out needing the ammco or miller shoe setting tools. Just do the minor adjustment. There is never any shimming necessary. Not sure what you are referring to there. I have all these lockheed w/cylinders sleeved now and use the better quality old two piece pistons to avoid these trouble issues with new replacement wheel cylinders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted September 16, 2017 Share Posted September 16, 2017 You can arc the shoes to the drum using stick-on sand paper. Stick it to the inside of the drum then sand the shoes to fit each drum. When you pushed the cup back over the fluid inlet hole in the cylinder, you may have damaged the sealing edge of the cup on the sharp edge of the hole. Check. Cups are cheap if you have and can be bought individually. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Well, the new rear shoes came in today and no good progress. I sanded and fit the shoes as good as possible. The shoes I took out measured 1/4" thick, the ones that Vintage Mopar sent were supposed to be original thickness. The drums were snug but I was just able to rotate them by hand. I run the car in both forward and reverse until both rotated together. Next we started to bleed the passenger side first. No fluid reaching the cylinder. We jumped to the other side and none there either. Then we tried pumping the brake slowly and to the floor, then.......the passenger side started to leak. I still could not get that side to bleed after the clean up yet I get a leaky cylinder. I took the leaky cylinder apart and one cup had a small blemish on the edge. The bleeder screws are about 3/4" long. When I tried to get the shoes to fit I must have pushed the piston too deep. Tomorrow I am going to purchase four new cups to play it safe. I also come to the conclusion that I need to put in the new master cylinder before any attempt to bleed the system. I don't have access to a lift so not sure how to tackle this. Hard to believe I can get fluid back there to blow out the cylinder but not enough to bleed the system. Time for bed. Probably will lie awake thinking of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curti Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 These people are professionals and will be able to help you. You should have the shoes arched to the drums. They will supply the correct parts and they will work the first time. Tell Rob Curt told you to call. Brake & Equip Whse (Rob) 455 Harrison St NE, Mpls MN 55413-2408 (612) 378-3141 #2=shop 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Yes to replacing the master first, as even if you got the system bled with the bad master cylinder, you would have to bleed it again with replacing the master cylinder. Others may disagree, but I find it (the whole process of bleeding) goes faster if you bench bleed the master before installing it. No lift? Most people do not have one either. Jack the car up safely and USE JACK STANDS to support the car when you are under it. Do not use jack stands on dirt, they need a solid surface to keep the legs from sinking. DO NOT USE "cinder blocks" or other fracturable materials to support a vehicle in the air. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted September 22, 2017 Share Posted September 22, 2017 Thanks for the replies!!! Happy to report that both drums are back on and bled. Bought adhesive sandpaper but still had to do a lot of sand and test. Both are tight but better than nothing right now. I am going to put the tires back on and go up and down the driveway a few times (I live in the country). If I have no problems then I will do as suggested, jack the car up on stands and ramps and go for it. Then I will bleed the system with fresh fluid. Time for next adventure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted September 24, 2017 Share Posted September 24, 2017 Leaky rear brake line. Will order all tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 You would be wise to put all new flexible lines at least. And do a good inspection of the hard lines. I don't see any advantage to do a partial brake job. (master cyl later). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 I ordered all new brake lines and hoses. I have the back done and will start the front tomorrow. Lots of fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trini Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 The comments and advice are all good. I always learn something new. I took a different approach. I did this with my 1928 Dodge Senior. To maintain originality of parts I had the master and the wheel cylinders relined with stainless steel to original size so I could use all the original components . Not Chinese. I replaced all flexible hoses and copper washers. What is important on new or rebuilt linings is to file or chamfer the edges. Make sure the edges are not overhanging the metal shoe surface. Arching the shoes is fine but use a drum gauge after installing on backing plate to drum. If the drum is too tight check the pins. There are coil springs in the wheel cylinders that prevent the pistons bottoming out blocking the entry of fluid .The diameter of the piston is less than the total diameter of the seal in place in the piston. I learned hard lessons trying to save money by fooling around with old worn out parts and changing rubbers with poor results and double work and money wasted. One member said it best. Old car business is not for the faint hearted and cheap pockets. It is impossible to bleed a braking system with a non functioning master cylinder. Bleeding the braking system , renewing the fluid every two years saves lots of headache and money later on. Goes for all old cars five years and older. Cheers and good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 After two days of installing new brake lines and hoses, we started to bleed the system. Just about every fitting leaked. I tightened everything to the max but no luck. These lines are new from a specialty old car parts supplier. Not NOS items. This car has put me through hell the last two weeks. Not fun anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylormade Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Did you buy the brake lines or make them yourself? Exactly where are the leaks - between the brass fittings and the wheel cylinder, at the hard brake line fittings or at the hose connection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 The brake lines were from an old car parts supplier on line. Advertised as made up for each model and easy to bend to shape. One leak is at each rear master cylinder and each front hose to line. The front line from the master cylinder. At both splice joints and all junctions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Are the lines single or double flare? Double flare is far better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylormade Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Either there is a problem with the flares, or you don't have the fittings tight enough. Are you using Dot 5 silicon brake fluid? Did you use an open brake line wrench? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted October 1, 2017 Share Posted October 1, 2017 Not sure what you mean by double flare, but I am quite sure the flares are wrong. Believe me, those fittings are tight. I am using dot 3 fluid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 (edited) Can you move the pipe in the fitting even though it is tight? Sometimes, esp. with single flares, the pipe might not be straight onto the connection and doesn't seat properly. I don't know what your brass fittings are on the wheel cylinders where the pipes attach, but mine contacted a cylinder bolt and didn't seat properly -> leak. Just loosen, rotate, tighten -> fixed. Are all the copper washers in the right place on the fittings? Presumably the new nipples are the same as the old and hold the pipes on properly. Edited October 2, 2017 by Spinneyhill (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 I presume they are not stainless steel, as they were sold as easy to bend. If stainless, I could understand leaks, as that material does not form to fittings well (to hard). But easy to bend and shape sounds like Cunifer, which has always deformed to the fittings and seal well for me. This is a wrench design for tightening flare nuts on lines: https://www.craftsman.com/products/craftsman-3-8-x-7-16-in-wrench-standard-flare-nut?taxon_id=1889 Is this sort of wrench what you are using? I agree,usually when I have a fitting that leaks, I loosen it and re-tighten it. There are copper washers available to help seal worn flare fittings: https://www.amazon.com/Parker-2GF-3-Degree-Fitting-Gasket/dp/B002KLJ1OI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Every mechanic should have one or two flare nut wrenches (however many you need to fit all/any flare nuts on your car). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curti Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Anneal the copper washers. Heat them to w dull red then quench. They will seal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest solidgold56 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 I took off two of the lines and compared the flares with the originals. No comparison. No wonder they leak! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 That seller did you a lot of good selling bunko brake lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curti Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 4 hours ago, Curti said: Anneal the copper washers. Heat them to w dull red then quench. They will seal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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