JV Puleo Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 Does anyone know of a catalog that lists relatively modern pistons by bore and possibly deck height? I'm trying to help a friend who is NOT interested in buying a very expensive set of forged racing pistons for an engine that will probably not be started more than a dozen times a year. I always find this frustrating because everything is listed my make and model only. I realize that is perfectly natural and realistic but it's also a PIA when you are trying to find a replacement to use in a long defunct engine that no current manufacturer has ever heard of. Thanks,' JV Puleo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 You might try Egge Machine. https://egge.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted September 8, 2017 Author Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) It looks as if Chrysler 383 or 440 pistons might work... but try finding a set of bog standard OEM types. Everything is oriented to racing and hot rods. I can ask Egge but I have been extremely unimpressed with them in the past, so much so that I've completely ignored them for 10 years. [EDIT] An impression that was just confirmed when I tried to access their catalog. The pdf didn't download and the request for a print catalog insisted that I "verify my company name". That's pretty difficult if I don't have a company name and that block on their catalog request form IS NOT marked as being necessary. I prefer not to use the telephone for my own reasons. If I have to call them because their web site doesn't work, that does not inspire confidence. They are not a "one-man" shop devoid of technical resources. Edited September 8, 2017 by JV Puleo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Shaw Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) I have been told that many years ago, Egge pistons were not very consistent. However, due to the persistence of one of the old piston ring suppliers, they finally improved their manufacturing processes. I suggest you or somebody you know could call them for assistance in selecting your replacement pistons. Edited September 8, 2017 by Mark Shaw (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 13 hours ago, JV Puleo said: It looks as if Chrysler 383 or 440 pistons might work... but try finding a set of bog standard OEM types. Everything is oriented to racing and hot rods. People buy "bog standard" OEM pistons for OEM applications. They don't buy them by dimensions, which is why no one lists them that way. Custom racing pistons ARE purchased by dimension for custom applications, which is why you CAN find them that way. We "racing and hot rod" guys are frequently mixing and matching pistons from different applications to achieve non-standard bores and strokes in older blocks - especially if they are non-Chevy motors. Even we typically have to spend a lot of time just doing a brute force search. Obviously knowing the bore of certain motors helps narrow that search, but you still need to know the compression height and pin diameter. Sometimes it's just easier to have custom pistons made. The expense isn't that great, and unless you value your time at zero, it's usually cheaper than the search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) It might help if you told us what engine you are working on and what you are trying to accomplish. It is possible someone has run into the same problem before. I know of one guy who was building a hot rod 1965 Dodge 318 and found Ford 400 pistons would work, with modifications. Sites like Summit Racing and Jeg sell cheap pistons for stock rebuilds. That would be about the cheapest source of standard pistons. Edited September 8, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Rusty_OToole said: Sites like Summit Racing and Jeg sell cheap pistons for stock rebuilds. That would be about the cheapest source of standard pistons. I was under the impression that the OP knew where to buy low cost OEM pistons but was asking about a database of such sorted by dimensions, not by application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 2 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said: I know of one guy who was building a hot rod 1965 Dodge 318 and found Ford 400 pistons would work, with modifications. Oh really? Like 400M? I have never heard of that. Somewhere around here I have some custom high-compression early 318 pistons left over from long ago. Like many forged pistons of old, they are heavy. I wouldn't want to use them today. I assume he had to cut valve reliefs. What else? Was he able to use hypereutectic cast and reduce the weight? What compression ratio was he able to achieve? JV Puleo, sorry for the short thread derail, If turns into a conversation, I'll start a new thread. Like others here I have never seen a chart like you are looking for. Back in the day I would just start with the bore size to get some idea what might work and then try to find junk ones from some other car enthusiast to measure. I would get pin diameters from Chilton or Motor, but the pin height was always a mystery until I could measure one. I guess I'm telling you what you already know. Custom race pistons are expensive but much easier, and probably a lot lighter. You didn't say what you are working on, but If it is something really old like your Mitchell I imagine the cast babbitt bearings would appreciate something light. Best of luck in your search. If you do find a chart like that, please post it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 There were charts and books that listed pistons by dimensions. The last one I saw was at a wrecking yard in Spokane thirty years ago. A man was sitting in a box car door, taking loose pistons out and measuring them so they could be put in stock properly. Apparently, NOS pistons could be bought for scrap prices if the were not in their boxes. It was cheaper to pay someone to look up the application than to pay the manufacturer. The box car was about four feet deep in unboxed pistons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted September 8, 2017 Author Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) OK... here is more of the story. It's a 1909 Jackson. I'm working on as a favor to a friend who did me a big favor. The job includes some machining challenges that no regular engine shop was willing to accept. In fact, it was rejected by 3 shops long before I saw it. I agreed to take a look at it, sight unseen. When it arrived I could see what needed to be done and fully agree that was not in the purview of conventional engine rebuilding. That part of the job is now nearly done. I still have to make the middle camshaft bearing and bronze shells for the main bearings but that is almost academic compared to the work I've finished. It came out surprisingly good although it took me a long time to figure out how to do some of the operations. This isn't a matter of the value of my time. I do not accept "trade" work and have no desire to go back into business. To me, it's a challenge. I also realize why the catalogs don't list the dimensions... I was simply asking if anyone knew of one that did. I have almost no exposure or interest in modern engine rebuilding so I simply didn't know where to start to look. I did download the Hastings ring catalog, which lists bore size, and worked from there. I have some flexibility regarding wrist pins and deck height — not much, but enough that I don't need to hit those measurements exactly. The original compression ratio might be 3-1/2:1 so raising it slightly isn't really a problem. The bore I'm dealing with is 4-1/4 inches. If I can find a standard, off the shelf piston that will work, that is far preferable to having special ones made. Actually, I'm making the pistons for my Mitchell myself so I have a reasonably good idea what is involved. I also take the responsibility of spending someone else's money very seriously. If I can find a way to do something less expensively, even if it takes me some time to figure out how, I'll do it. I need to be able to sleep at night. [edit] Believe it or not, I actually found such a catalog a few minutes ago. I'm not sure how, because I've gone down this path before, always unsuccessfully. It lists bore size, pin size and deck height as well as what engine it fits. I'll post a link later in case anyone else has the same problem. Now I have to back into the shop and take some measurements. Edited September 8, 2017 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 39 minutes ago, JV Puleo said: [edit] Believe it or not, I actually found such a catalog a few minutes ago. I'm not sure how, because I've gone down this path before, always unsuccessfully. It lists bore size, pin size and deck height as well as what engine it fits. I'll post a link later in case anyone else has the same problem. Now I have to back into the shop and take some measurements. Cool. That would be helpful info to have. As I said, we hotrodders frequently look for oddball piston applications for custom motor builds. For example, I've got a 1969 Olds 400 motor with the insanely small 3.890" bore and 4.25" stroke and I'd like to find pistons that will let me open the bore up somewhat - that block can probably take nearly a 0.200" overbore, pending sonic testing. I have to say that you've piqued my interest in the custom machining work you've done on your friend's motor. More info would be greatly appreciated if you get the chance. Sounds like a fun, challenging project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 You might have more luck looking in a tractor engine catalog but then, you would have to pay more than for the proper pistons from Egge. Have you considered making a mould and casting your own pistons the way Bert Munro did in The World's Fastest Indian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hidden_hunter Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 I got a quote from a local place to make a new piston and the cost wasn't actually that bad, as long as they had something to template off they said it was straight forward and I could choose the material Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted September 8, 2017 Author Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) The copy/past function isn't working on my machine but, to view the site I found, google "United Engine & Machine" or UEMpistons. That should get you there. I'm guessing they supply the hot rod/street rod market where, as Joe Padavano has already pointed out, there is a lot of mixing & matching going on. It's very clever of them to provide this sort of information. Were I in that business, I'd be a customer in a heartbeat. As to making them... I'm only half through making the pistons for my 1910 Mitchell. It is A LOT of work... starting with making a pattern (which is not simple) I was very lucky in that a good friend offered to do that for me but making the tooling to machine them, even when I have the castings in hand, is a major undertaking. As much as I enjoy this stuff, I have my own car to finish some day. Were it not that the deck height on the Mitchell piston is something like 3-1/2 inches, I'd have pursued using off the shelf parts. Here are my castings with the pattern. The big piece in the center makes the general shape and the smaller ones behind it are for the cores. The second photo shows them semi-finished. The device in the center is the special boring head I made to bore the inside lower edges identical. I still have tooling to make to bore the wrist pin holes and to actually turn them to size and cut the ring grooves. In this semi-finished state, 4 of these are identical to the gram and the fifth is about 6 grams heavier. The extra one is for "set ups" and testing. Edited September 8, 2017 by JV Puleo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted September 8, 2017 Author Share Posted September 8, 2017 1 hour ago, hidden_hunter said: I got a quote from a local place to make a new piston and the cost wasn't actually that bad, as long as they had something to template off they said it was straight forward and I could choose the material May I ask what the quote was? Was this for your Cadillac? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 1 hour ago, JV Puleo said: The copy/past function isn't working on my machine but, to view the site I found, google "United Engine & Machine" or UEMpistons. That should get you there. I'm guessing they supply the hot rod/street rod market where, as Joe Padavano has already pointed out, there is a lot of mixing & matching going on. It's very clever of them to provide this sort of information. Were I in that business, I'd be a customer in a heartbeat. The size chart is there >>> https://www.uempistons.com/catalogs/icon_catalog.pdf with the actual size listings beginning on page 79. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hidden_hunter Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, JV Puleo said: May I ask what the quote was? Was this for your Cadillac? It was approximately USD$1800 for the cad - this was based on having a piston to pattern off Edited September 9, 2017 by hidden_hunter (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted September 9, 2017 Author Share Posted September 9, 2017 I'd say that's pretty strong money... It doesn't surprise me, but it's clearly in the ball park for most of these custom piston sets. Of course I'm only dealing with a 4-cylnder engine but I'm trying to find something I can use for less than $400 – a lot less if I can find an off-the shelf common piston from the 1960s or 1970s. But, part of this has to do with the fact that I have other parts that do have to be machined so I have some flexibility that most people replacing only the pistons do not have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hidden_hunter Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 54 minutes ago, JV Puleo said: I'd say that's pretty strong money... It doesn't surprise me, but it's clearly in the ball park for most of these custom piston sets. Of course I'm only dealing with a 4-cylnder engine but I'm trying to find something I can use for less than $400 – a lot less if I can find an off-the shelf common piston from the 1960s or 1970s. But, part of this has to do with the fact that I have other parts that do have to be machined so I have some flexibility that most people replacing only the pistons do not have. Australian labour prices are generally pretty pricey as well From my research, I reckon I'd be able to get something off the shelf close enough (some of the Jeep stuff isn't far off) with some minor work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted September 9, 2017 Author Share Posted September 9, 2017 I don't have the Cadillac specs handy but take a look at the catalog I mentioned above. I'd be surprised if you can't find something pretty close. Chances are, you can afford to raise your compression a little. The limiting factor in 1922 was more likely to be fuel than the strength of the parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted September 9, 2017 Author Share Posted September 9, 2017 (edited) 18 hours ago, joe_padavano said: I have to say that you've piqued my interest in the custom machining work you've done on your friend's motor. More info would be greatly appreciated if you get the chance. Sounds like a fun, challenging project. The basic story is, the engine threw a rod. It came out the cam shaft side, breaking 3 large chunks out of the case and bending the cam like a pretzel. What was left of it had to be taken out with a sawzall. The owner had the case welded and, I must say, it's a brilliant welding job. He also had a new camshaft made but no one would tackle the crankcase. Despite the very good welding it was, of course, nothing like mechanically straight especially as it was broken through both the center and front cam bearing journals. Also, the center main bearing journal is now off center about .040 so that has to be bored relative to the front and back. The major challenge was boring the cam journals parallel to the crank. It took me some time to think up a way to do and make the appropriate tooling. It was probably the most stressful machining job I've ever undertaken. I only took a few pictures to send to the gentleman who owns the car... but I don't suppose he'd mind if I share them. This is milling the top of the case. To keep it flat and straight I bolted a 1/2" plate to the bottom of the case using the main bearing holes. This, in turn, was bolted to the table of the mill. It just fit... I couldn't use a face mill any larger than 2-1/2 inches in order to allow it to pass completely over the top of the case. I took about .040 off the top in order to flatten it and remove the weld. In order to clean up the cam journals, I line bored it in my lathe using the boring bar form my portable align boring machine. This involved removing the compound and the cross feed screw and mounting the crankcase on the saddle. There are 1/2" thick "torsion plates" bolted to the top face to keep the case from flexing. I made a real error here in that the mounting for the outside end was not rigid enough. While the center hole bored smoothly, I got a lot of chatter on the outside end. Fortunately, I was not trying to meet a specific size... just to clean up the holes. I already knew I had to make both the center and front cam bearings so they could be any size that worked. It's not very clear but this is the area where the case is welded. I was able to hone out the chatter marks in the front journal so, in the end, no damage was done (by me!). I've since made a new end to fit this hole and bushed the one at the rear. I only have the middle bearing to finish now. Keep in mind, I'm a complete amateur at this stuff so it often takes me time to figure out how to attack a problem. Edited September 9, 2017 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 Very impressive work for a self-proclaimed "amateur". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broker-len Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 when I rebuilt my PA got pistons from Al Suehring has allot of stuff also a new cam gear----- 715 677 3809 in Wisconson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 (edited) 22 hours ago, Bloo said: Oh really? Like 400M? I have never heard of that. Somewhere around here I have some custom high-compression early 318 pistons left over from long ago. Like many forged pistons of old, they are heavy. I wouldn't want to use them today. I assume he had to cut valve reliefs. What else? Was he able to use hypereutectic cast and reduce the weight? What compression ratio was he able to achieve? It was a guy named Don Doelmetsch or Dulmadge, an old time engine builder from Canada. He was fooling around with hot rodding a Polysphere 318 for fun. He found a set of 400 Ford pistons cheap, and they fit his bored out block with a few modifications. It was in a thread on the HAMB forum. I did a search but could not find it. Hokey Ass Message Board - THE H.A.M.B. Later... tried again and found these 2 threads. First the one where he put the Ford pistons in the 318. Aiming for 390 - 400 HP out of an old Polysphere dodge 318 with scrounged and home made parts. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/the-mad-parrot-building-racing-the-318-poly.552335/#post-6367583 Thread on casting pistons by the same guy https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/casting-pistons.519792/ Edited September 9, 2017 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 19 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said: It was a guy named Don Doelmetsch or Dulmadge, an old time engine builder from Canada. He was fooling around with hot rodding a Polysphere 318 for fun. He found a set of 400 Ford pistons cheap, and they fit his bored out block with a few modifications. It was in a thread on the HAMB forum. I did a search but could not find it. Hokey Ass Message Board - THE H.A.M.B. Later... tried again and found these 2 threads. First the one where he put the Ford pistons in the 318. Aiming for 390 - 400 HP out of an old Polysphere dodge 318 with scrounged and home made parts. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/the-mad-parrot-building-racing-the-318-poly.552335/#post-6367583 Thread on casting pistons by the same guy https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/casting-pistons.519792/ As I said, mixing and matching pistons like that is not uncommon when one is trying to build a stroker motor. A longer than stock stroke requires either shorter rods or reduced compression height in the piston or both. Unless you are building a small block Chevy, there are few off-the-shelf pistons for such custom applications. This is where careful selection of off-brand pistons can provide an inexpensive option. For example, it's not uncommon to use Mopar pistons in a stroker Oldsmobile build. Pontiac pistons also work depending on the bore and stroke desired. Also, it is common to turn down the rod journals (usually required anyway to offset grind a stroker crank) and use plentiful Chevy rods in other makes. Again, the Chevy rods are available in a wide variety of lengths for a fraction of the cost of custom rods. The motor neither knows nor cares what brand of rod or piston is in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustDave Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 Hello joe. Could you look at heavy truck pistons the 4 1/4 bore is large by today's standards but I believe quite common in the early years,also there's a guy aimed Lester Harris in Mendez Nevada that may have something useable,he deals in early parts and may be able to help, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted September 10, 2017 Author Share Posted September 10, 2017 Thanks Dave, I was thinking of truck pistons but at this point I think I may have it nailed. Of course, I haven't even seen the jugs, and have no idea how much they will need to be bored, but I've found GM, Chrysler and Ford pistons that all are close. The variable is the wrist pin diameter but I have to make new bushings in any case so I'll just make them to fit the pins that are correct for the piston. The other major consideration is deck height. Only one is extremely close... the others are a bit short. But, I had to remove .040 from the top of the crankcase to flatten it and I could plane the bottom of the jugs that much without damaging it's integrity... I think the flanges are nearly 3/4" thick. So, I'm feeling pretty good about this. I've also lucked into a set of rods. I have one, and the friend who owns them is looking for the other 3 but we know he has them because they are in a picture taken last year. My big advantage here is that, within reason, I can make modifications and don't have to match the original exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 Just out of curiosity, checked some of my old paper piston catalogs...found they all (1924, 29, 32, 36, 44 good at listing dimensions... Had cyl #, diam, length, comp dist, pin diam, type and length,..only a couple older ones listed if had set screw and distance between bosses... Don't know if more modern paper catalogs listed such info, but would seem likely... Unfortunately, none had dimensional tables, but it would'n't take that much time to eyeball some more modern catalogs for your diam and see if anything comes up ..I'm surprised such tables aren't online..., .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted September 12, 2017 Author Share Posted September 12, 2017 I did think of that but don't have any paper catalogs nor do I know anyone who does. I looked on ebay, only to find out that they sell for a surprisingly large amounts (or at least people ask surprisingly large amounts for them). If I was in the business of repairing early engines I would certainly pursue that avenue. I'm not... while I won't say I'll never do this sort of thing again, my guess is that I won't do it very often. The online piston listing I found (mentioned earlier) has proved a godsend. In a matter of about 20 minutes I was able to identify a recent (1970s to 1990s) Ford piston that will almost certainly work. I won't buy them until the blocks have been bored but the standard size is .010 larger than the original piston so I am guessing the one of the oversizes will work perfectly. Of course, it's not over until it's over but I think I'm on the right track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 On 9/9/2017 at 11:23 AM, Rusty_OToole said: It was a guy named Don Doelmetsch or Dulmadge, an old time engine builder from Canada. He was fooling around with hot rodding a Polysphere 318 for fun. He found a set of 400 Ford pistons cheap, and they fit his bored out block with a few modifications. It was in a thread on the HAMB forum. I did a search but could not find it. Hokey Ass Message Board - THE H.A.M.B. Later... tried again and found these 2 threads. First the one where he put the Ford pistons in the 318. Aiming for 390 - 400 HP out of an old Polysphere dodge 318 with scrounged and home made parts. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/the-mad-parrot-building-racing-the-318-poly.552335/#post-6367583 Thread on casting pistons by the same guy https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/casting-pistons.519792/ Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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