"Matching Numbers"

[Frank DuVal]

Just to confuse this thread, most of the three on a tree transmissions, when mated to higher HP Olds (Pontiac &Buick) engines are Ford RAT transmissions!  

 

I know because 

 

1. I own a 1970  Buick Estate Wagon 455 three on a tree and have had the Ford RAT transmission out several times for clutches ?

 

2. Mechanic friend just gave me a short shaft (tail extension) one he pulled out of a Cutlass (69?)  to install a 4 speed. 

 

[R Walling]

 My car has matching numbers,

4 wheels

4 seats

4 cylinders

4 hub caps

4 bumper guards

4 instruments in the dash

AND,

4 people with lots of cash trying to buy it. It must be something special! (;-)

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, Frank DuVal said:

Just to confuse this thread, most of the three on a tree transmissions, when mated to higher HP Olds (Pontiac &Buick) engines are Ford RAT transmissions!  

 

I know because 

 

1. I own a 1970  Buick Estate Wagon 455 three on a tree and have had the Ford RAT transmission out several times for clutches ?

 

2. Mechanic friend just gave me a short shaft (tail extension) one he pulled out of a Cutlass (69?)  to install a 4 speed. 

 

 

The Dearborn toploader three speed was only used by Buick, Olds, and Pontiac and only in "heavy duty" applications (thus the use behind your 455). Most of them were used in floor shift applications (RPO M14), but the column shift version was used in the full size cars. FYI, the Dearborn three speed was base equipment in the Olds 442 for model years 1965-69.

[Buffalowed Bill]

 Gentlemen and Lady,

 

I am well aware of the lack of concern for numbers matching when the production figures are  high and comprehensive build sheets (individual production data) is limited, or nonexistent. I've owned my 1967 Camaro since 1969, refurbished it during the 70's and later restored it, so I know what the car came with when new. I did a quick calculation of my 1967 Camaro, and based on the car's combination of accessories, and came up with a guess of <200> identical cars when new. The chances of seeing one exactly like it, was extremely limited in the day. But does any of this really matter for this car? I think not, but it is important to me.

 

Excluding the above Camaro and some of the Fords, my world is a bit different. With my Studebakers and Pierce Arrows the story (history) has become an important part of what my cars are. I believe that all post 1936 Studebakers have a surviving written build sheets. These sheets include serial numbers and engine numbers. Copies of these build sheets are available through the Studebaker museum in South Bend. On an average good year Studebaker built 120,000 cars, but a good many pre-war years production was less then 50,000. I still doubt that matching numbers make much difference to most observers. To many this changes if the car is really unique, considered special, or it is an original survivor. The bottom line for me is that every car has a story. The closer the car is to original, the better the story. I love a good story!
 

[padgett]

Oh agree and can get silly about it. My Arlington built Judge in white with black trim, red interior and 4spd/AC/8 track is 1 of 1. It also now has a 442 'vert suspension, disk brakes, posi, full gauges with hood tach, and 15x8 Pontiac wheels (originals were not even safe in the driveway). Would probably be a restomod today but in the '80s what I had available were GM parts.

 

OTOH GM billing cards are available, at least for Pontiac, though a build sheet will have similar information. Here are two from 67 Pontiacs and can see which were binary and which were single selection. Paint & trim codes were single so used letters Since nthese are not mine, the s/n and key codes are redacted. However note that the engine and trans s/ns are there so can tell if "numbers matched" (if not restamped - one stamped digit on some Rochester carbs can make a difference of about a grand). Similarly it is easy for a correct date coded YS block to become a WW).

 

Pontiac has this information back to about 1959 though be aware that sometimes (well a lot of times) Pontiac lied. For instance a SD421 with dual quads is likely to have 389/2bbl on the card.

 

 

 

BTW in the late 60s GM had a problem: loss leaders came with three on the tree (could use the Saginaw with a small block but once you got over 400 lb-ft they were NG. Meanwhile Muncie had three different four speeds (M20, M21, & M22) - incidentally the name "rock crusher" did not mean it was so strong it could crush rocks, meant the straight cut gears particularly with the ATF popular with drag racers sounded like it was crushing rocks - but no three speed. Since BOP did not expect to sell many three speeds, GM found it cheaper to buy three speeds from Ford rather than tool up for a transmission they did not expect to need many. And that is the rest of the story.

Edited September 3, 2017 by padgett (see edit history)

[JACK M]

Not that it matters here but I had a car stolen from me in the early eighties.

It was rare, a 1966 Impala four door hard top with a 427 and three on the tree.

I swapped into it from the old guy that ordered it. (he had a matching El Camino, but it was a 283 Powerglide ordered at the same time that was his DD).

I got a pretty good deal on the Impala as the old boy had let his grandson drive it and it now had a knock.

I spotted it in the briars near his house.

It turned out that a wrist pin had drifted over and was rubbing the cylinder.

Crank was good so I bored it and put some .030 pistons and rings and std. bearings in it.

The term "numbers matching" was in our vocabulary even back then.

I clearly recall checking the numbers stamped on that 427 and a portion of the VIN was on the block.

Never got the car back but I still have the title.

[60FlatTop]

When I was a kid I remember some very deep discussions about radiator cap threads and horn styles. I don't see a whole lot of difference in how the BB rolls through the gray mush in either instance.

Bernie

[padgett]

Bottom line there have always been "numbers" just 14 digit VINs are relatively recent.

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, padgett said:

Bottom line there have always been "numbers" just 14 digit VINs are relatively recent.

 

Actually, VINs were 13 characters from 1965-1980 and 17 characters from 1981-up.

[wrsangrey]

On 9/1/2017 at 9:51 AM, padgett said:

Most major parts have a date code that you can match to the car (may be a range before but not after), some you can even match to the assembly plant but you will need a Ford SME to really know.

 

One thing any good lawyer can tell you is that it is almost impossible to prove a negative. As a platinum judge for a marque club I learned to "never say never" but had a lot of documentation to show "if it existed, here is how the factory would have done it" and which options were not available with certain other options. Then there were mid-year changes and assembly plant differences as well as certain options only being available at some assembly plants. There was a lot besides just numbers (.e.g. restamping a different engine code in a block is easy. Changing the cast in date code is hard.)

Yes, stamping an engine code in a  correct (e.g., proper part number and date code) but non-original (to the car) block is easy - done by many, and stamping a "matching" VIN is also easy - again done by many.  But the result is not the same as the vehicle having its original engine which for many is a key value aspect. But determining the originality of an engine can be difficult, particularity before the '60s. As to "Changing the cast in date code..." - ever heard of JB Weld?