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GARY F

I got sick last night

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3 hours ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

Ouch! Harsh words for the custom/street rod/hot rod world. I have been to Hershey, I have seen all of those unsold cars go home. I get Hemmings, I see all of those unsold cars get relisted. I got harped on for what I did to our 54 XK120 Roadster. It was for sale, I watched it get listed for sale a few times. Priced right, complete car, no buyers. So I bought it, my car. There is no right or wrong with cars. You need a balance in everything, if all cars were restored, only color would be the difference. I like them all, great to see quality work from both sides of the car world.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate custom cars and I don't think you shouldn't do what you want with your car. What I DO hate is row after row after row of "hot rods" with a ZZ3 crate motor, an Edelbrock 4-barrel, a TH350 transmission, a Mustang II front suspension, a 10-bolt or 9-inch rear with drum brakes on the ends, and Torque Thrust wheels. That exact combination can live under anything from a Model T to a 1965 Riviera, and usually does. Fuel injection has been available and reliable for 40 years. Overdrive transmissions and independent suspensions have been commonplace for decades. Disc brakes are cheap now. Stop taking the easy way out if you want me to think you're great at building cars (not any you specifically, just generally). I know a guy with a '40s Cadillac convertible that's freshly restored. He hates driving it, so he's going to modify it. I begged him to at least do something interesting, like a Northstar V8 so you have a bespoke Cadillac in your Cadillac. His answer? "Nah, I think I have an old truck motor around here that'll fit." AAAAARRRGH!

 

I deal with a lot of guys selling their very low mileage hot rods and the #1 most common complaint is that they're not exciting and kind of boring to drive and they want to try something new. Well, duh. One of the guys with the aforementioned '30s Cadillacs at the CLC show said that his car drives like his new 3/4 ton Dodge Ram pickup. Great! But I already have a 3/4 ton truck. What I don't have is a 1932 Cadillac V12. Not many people do.

 

If you're going to build a rod, build something unique UNDER THE SKIN, not just by doing the same old thing to a rare body. Sadly, most guys just build a car using the shortest, easiest, cheapest path from point A to point B and then wonder how they ended up with a ho-hum machine.

 

There are plenty of guys with awesome talent and imagination in this hobby. Unfortunately, most cars aren't built by them. Most guys (and I mean MOST) build the same cookie-cutter rod that everyone else has built ten thousand times over. It's like the kid with the radical tribal tattoo on his bicep, which is just like the other 150 hardasses in his graduating class.

 

These guys are unhappy with their rods and think that putting the same hardware under a more exotic, expensive car will make for a different experience. Putting a Big Mac on a plate with a baked potato doesn't make it a steak dinner.

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Benefits of AACA Membership.

Matt, Your above statement is EXACTLY how I view RESTORED Mustangs  and all post 1965 vehicles on the Hershey show field or the local cruse night get togethers. To me they KILLED the Antique Car hobby, wined to get in, won and drove away the old timers and their dead stock pre war cars. Some how people think you have to drive your car or truck otherwise in their mind you are not "enjoying" the car, never quite understood that view. Bob

Edited by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

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5 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

That's a good point. And in trying to be different, they're all exactly the same.........

 

Matt's contributions to this "thread" are right on.    Folks today want so badly to "stand out".     Of course they couldn't care less about old cars - they just want to be "noticed".    .  Of course modern technology has given us vastly superior-performing cars. Can we really blame such folk, with their psychological needs,  for hanging the sheet metal from some unfortunate older car on modern components?

 

Matt might appreciate a funny story - there is a group that makes a big deal about U.S. Highway 66 ( mistakenly called "route" 66 - heck...the "route 66" thing has become a whole new religion ! ).  

 

A couple of years ago,   I decided to go.   I  got off Interstate 40 at the Cookson off-ramp, so I could  join the group.....drive what is now "State Route 66" to Seligman, where the group was having a get-to-gether. 

 

As I was driving along at my normal crusing speed  for road conditions there ( 65-70 mph)..I became aware that a pre-war bright orange Mercury ( or what I THOUGHT was a pre-war Mercury)  was pulling up behind me...being a bit of a sadist...I slowly increased my speed....     Hmm...its still behind me !      I was reluctant to take my  "authentic, original"  car much over 90.....not because the car cant do it...just a bit of concern about tire issues.    If that thing really was a pre-war Mercury, I should have left him way behind.    

 

But there is a scream, which I instantly recognized as a "6-71" blower, as the guy shot past me like I was standing still.

 

Some hours later, I spotted that car amongst those parked in Seligman for the event.  Everything on that car -  impressive quality job.  The upholstery was first - rate;   wasn't sure what make modern rear axle and front suspension I was looking at,  but clearly well thought out the way the disc brakes were fitted.   Beautiful dash, complete with well-integrated air conditioning.

 

I  got the guy into conversation, - very friendly, well-spoken, and clearly technically competent.  Showed me under the hood.  The workmanship, as, again was the case with everything I'd seen on the exterior, clearly first-rate.  Yes - "big-block"    Chev/GMC.  ( for those who do not know about such things....those of us who know hot-rods call the "small block" GMC/Chev's  "mouse mouters",  and the "big block" based ones "rat motors".  This was some rat !  I have no reason to doubt  his statement that he was getting around 1.5 times in horsepower,  the cubic inch displacement of that work-of-art.  Of course he cheerfully admitted virtually no part of his car was actually pre-war FoMoCo.!

 

Then I identified myself as the owner-driver of the Packard V-12 he'd passed earlier coming into Seligman.  He was very interested in walking over to my car; wanted to see under the hood of my Packard!        He explained he had to go well over 100 to pass me.    "Wow"...he said, ... as I opened the hood....."that's the biggest six cylinder motor I've ever seen"...!      "Come around to the other side...I've got six more cylinders there ! "     Then he told me all about how he's heard Packard 12's can only get 8 mpg,  over-heat,  are hard to start...... and have teeny pistons.....

 

Matt and I...our thinking....is as obsolete as the big pre-war super cars we USED to call "classics".    Of course we know that if you paid the equiv. in 1938 of $60,00o+ for a super luxury car...it durn well better start RIGHT NOW hot or cold,  and handle ANY speed under ANY weather condition you felt like driving it.    

 

Bottom line - today's thinking of so many younger folk these days.... isn't much we can do about it !

 

 

Edited by SaddleRider
frumious jabberwocky (see edit history)

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   We ALL don't have the same interest/ideas in what our ride should be.                    

 

   I respect your feelings, BUT we need to understand that these mods are going to happen, I wonder how many more times this is going to kicked around.  Personally I have moved on, EACH TO HIS/HER OWN. I do enjoy reading/viewing your stock rides, FOR SURE. 

 

I have ZERO regrets for cutting up my 41 Limited.  It loves 80 MPH, 20 MPG, injected, starts in the coldest weather, great brakes, seat & shoulder belts, plus many other mods.  Sure it looks like a 41, but I did it my way, there are plenty of Limiteds around, no chance they will disappear.  Matt's 41 is a good example, HAPPY for him.

 

Quality of touring cars has improved over the years, more and more are doing their rides, THEIR Way.

 

Dale in Indy 

 

 

 

                   

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2 hours ago, smithbrother said:

   

 

I have ZERO regrets for cutting up my 41 Limited.  It loves 80 MPH......

 

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Tell us more about what you did to make it safe to drive a 1941 Buick Limited 80 mph.    Discussion about suspension, tires, brakes,  steering...please ?   Oh...by the way,....where do you find it safe and legal to drive  80 mph ?

 

 

Edited by SaddleRider (see edit history)

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Let's look at the common refrain on this subject,  "Hey it's their car and they can do whatever they want", which of course is NOT the point.  Of course that's true, the larger question is, just because you can, does not mean you should.  Look at it this way, how would you feel about a rich guy buying a B-17 and modifying it by dumping those noisy old radial engines with new quieter engines, or changing out the interior or painting it pink?  Would that be OK, because it's his???

Edited by John_Mc (see edit history)
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On 8/29/2017 at 3:28 PM, GARY F said:

As I was surfing the TV last night I came across Iron Resurrection program. They took a beautiful solid 35 Chevy and with all good wood and pulled the body and were going to rework the frame to put in a SBC and different drive line.and customize the body. A perfectly good car and they ruined it. As soon as they said that I turned that program off.

It is getting harder to fix this stuff.. Not harder - just to find some one to work on it.. I have to drive 80 miles to get my radiator re-cored.. I can see why the want the new stuff..Cost and do you have it.. Most of my contacts have past away.. or went out of business.. The  young guys have no clue. What is Grease cup??

 

I just got the velocity channel last week.. I have a hard time  watching it.. to much drama..Not real car stuff...

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SaddleRider,  6 states have 80 MPH LIMIT.  11 states have 75 as limits, so easy to see how drivers can and do drive at 80.

 

i will send you  PM advising the mods I made to my car. No need to set off a riot on the site, 

 

Dale in Indy

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59 minutes ago, John_Mc said:

Let's look at the common refrain on this subject,  "Hey it's their car and they can do whatever they want", which of course is NOT the point.  Of course that's true, the larger question is, just because you can, does not mean you should.  Look at it this way, how would you feel about a rich guy buying a B-17 and modifying it by dumping those noisy old radial engines with new quieter engines, or changing out the interior or painting it pink?  Would that be OK, because it's his???

 

Thankfully most guys who can buy a B-17 or a P-51 know what they have and respect it. Kind of like how we do not see many hot rod Duesenbergs. But there were quiet a few P-51's butchered up to be Air Racers at Reno. They are faster, sleeker and look nothing like the plane they once were. I think I have seen them painted pink as well. My point is some people are not happy unless they modify their toy and personalize it. 

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Hey Dale : as long as you are up at this late or early bird hour , which states have 80 m.p.h. Speed limits on the Interstates these days ? I remember the beauty of an 80 speed limit sign in West Texas. Made me feel almost legit driving 95 !   - Carl

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And just to rotate back to the original bit, finally saw the show (DVR) and the '62 started out as a 327 powerglide (what are the oval vents in the dash where the radio went ?). Over 320,000 sport coupes made in '62 (a favorite rental car when growing up) and this one was already mildly modded. Further the shop did exactly what the customer/owner asked them to. The only thing I'd question is a 4L60 (mentioned twice) behind a 430 hp LS3, 4L80 would be a better choice or is that something only a fanatic would care about ? Of course building a Texas coupe without AC ? (at least if there was a compressor it was never visible). Do remember fading all of the brakes to nada in a 61 Caddy on one hard stop from 70 so 4 wheel disks (one of my first cars in college was a '59 with 4 wheel disks so knew the difference) are a Good Thing

 

Now if something rare and desirable (think most remaining 62-64 Impalas became low riders) it would be something different but to me is about like modding a Camry today. What's all the hubbub, bub ?

 

 

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Google UNITED STATES SPEED LIMITS.  there is a color coded map of the 75 MPH plus the 80 MPH states.

 

Dale in Indy

 

 

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20 hours ago, Brass is Best said:

Some cars are not worth restoring but make wonderful hot rods.

 

I have heard that so many, many times over the years. Think about the essence of that statement. "Hey, you people are welcome to anything we don't want."

 

I have always like customized cars. Believe me, if I decide to build one I am going to start with something nice. That's like the guy with a clamped out POS he says is a nice "father and son project".

 

Yeah, "My name is Menendez and I'm calling about your father and son project."

 

The traditional antique hobby is dying because the people are dying and the world is changing. I used to teach a course on refrigeration based on the concept of differentials. I encouraged recognizing and measuring change. If nothing changes it is dead. See the guy lying on the floor? If there is no pressure differential between the air in his lungs and the air in the room he is dead.

 

A long time ago I figured out the whole TV car show thing is based on producers trying to out-parody themselves.

 

Imagine one of those TV Gemokes talking along and in mid-sentence a commercial comes on. "Whoa, Dude! I never saw that coming!" Think of the epidemic copying of that.

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On 8/29/2017 at 8:58 PM, John_Mc said:

In the future when originals will be unobtainable at any price, these self proclaimed "artists" who mutilate these cars today in order to fulfill their own self-absorbed egos will surely be cursed.

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John, few of us will be around to complain about it. The youth of today have little interest in early cars. Many young people do not even get a driver's license until they are well into their upper 20's, if then. .

Wayne

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If the youth do not care, and the old guys are going to the wrecking yard in the sky. Then your most valuable group of people that you have. Are the businesses and the guys/gals that are building/restoring, and the customers that make the choice to invest their money in bringing back to life these classic/collector cars. Having a conversation about problems that people encounter with in this hobby/industry/trade is a good thing. And setting aside who people are, or what they chose to do with their cars, is a good thing as well.

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Suspect it is more supply exceeding demand. And the competition is exploding as collecting information and opinions becomes global. Today GTOs, Stangs, and 'cudas have to compete with Skyline GTRs and 240Zs. Thanks to the fed (55mph speed limit) we now have generations that never had an "American" car.

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I'm looking forward to a great buyer's market over the next 20 or so years. Quite optimistic.

 

I have always liked the cars most. The other stuff or types of car weren't important unless they pleased me. And I am pretty happy out in the garage alone. Or under a shady tree in my back yard. That tends to be peaceful.

 

Organized events, well, if you remove the grazing ones, one or two a year is probably sufficient.

 

Change. Not only does the hobby change, but how I want to spend my time changes.

 

Interests. Tuesday night I had a serious discussion about quartering a '59 T-Bird convertible and putting it on a Lincoln Mark VIII platform. Both 113" WB. Maybe fifths, it is early in the planning.

Bernie

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The facets of a vintage car that interest me not only include the appearance, but the mechanicals and material choices.  The flathead in my 41 pickup may only have 85 hp, but what a cool looking flathead engine with a very unique sound (if you care to listen).  That pickup is worth $10k as is, but can bring $35k with an sbc.  I think the starting mechanisms on my 40 Buick are unique and  fascinating, I see others installing pushbutton by-pass switches, but I like the function of the ignition on, pedal to the floor starter activation.  

 

I also find fascination with the materials used to make cars, back when these materials were less scarce and plastic parts were uncommon.  Look at how much forming went into the metal trim, the window cranks, the dash components, wheels, etc.  What would be considered wasteful today is the use of brass, chrome, nickel and so much formed steel.  Remember when Tom McCahill was reviewing cars in the 50's slamming them for poor fit, finish and performance?  I think he complained of the excessive use of the cheap chrome on those cars.  Today we seem to honor those very same cars. 

 

I too cringe when old original treasures are being modified, but these cars were made for market and never intended to be anything more than disposable.  I even have trouble sending a stripped prewar Buick frame to the scrap yard because I have no room to store it.  On the plus side, the value of the remaining old cars increases with awareness of them.  Consider what the movie Gone in 60 Seconds did for the 67 Mustang, or Rebel Without a Cause did for the early 50's Merc.  

 

Concluding with the wasteful use of resources, I'm sinking tons of time and resources into restoring my 40 Buick which will have very limited interest by the viewing public at a car show and just as little value when it is ultimately sold.  Millennials think that keeping a car like that on the road is wasteful and could go towards the manufacture of 3 or 4 Prius' and serving society better.  

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"Consider what the movie Gone in 60 Seconds  did for the 67 Mustang" Depends on when, didn't do much for the '73 but then not much was left after HB got through with it.

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On 8/31/2017 at 11:45 AM, R W Burgess said:

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John, few of us will be around to complain about it. The youth of today have little interest in early cars. Many young people do not even get a driver's license until they are well into their upper 20's, if then. .

Wayne

You have a very good point, maybe we're just dinosaurs who don't see the meteor coming.  I guess it just comes down to your common hot rodder not showing respect for these cars, the people who designed them or those who built them.  Interesting perspective, thanks. 

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Some cars which are not "worth restoring" are originals which would be degraded by doing so. Those are the cars I have always been attracted to. Those are the cars we miss the most when they are mongrelized. But hey ! If a very common car is in real need of restoration , no tragic loss. And if the amount of work requires redoing everything anyway , it becomes a net gain either way. However , we all know that in the trigger happy past , many exquisite originals were over restored , and in doing so had much of their charm and a bit of their "soul" diluted.    - Old , unrestored ,   -  Carl , (more than just "patina" on me ?)

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You old car puritans are the ones that make me puke. I'll be darned if I'll spend weeks trying to find the exact paint color of a heater box or the right plating on a bolt or nut. For gosh sake, build the cars to DRIVE or else settle for a framed picture. Nothing is as worthless in my opinion as a concours car that must not have a pebble in the tire tread. I'm 80 years old and drove the old cars and they were noisy, smelly, rolled, pitched, and wouldn't stop. We just made a lap of the U.S. in our 37 Buick Special (1952 263 straight 8, a/c, automatic, p/s, p/b, 12v, alternator, turn signals, halogen/led lights, and all the other non purist doo dads) and 99% of the people in the 20 states we were in have now seen a 37 Buick (in their eyes) and not a one gave a darn if a cotter pin was plated or non plated. Cruised in the left lane and if any of you want to join the next lap in your "correct" ride you can sign up now. Some people have their cars to ENJOY and not brag about how long it took them to find the exact correct heater door knob. You be the judge if the car is "Butchered".

 

 

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