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I got sick last night


GARY F

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As I was surfing the TV last night I came across Iron Resurrection program. They took a beautiful solid 35 Chevy and with all good wood and pulled the body and were going to rework the frame to put in a SBC and different drive line.and customize the body. A perfectly good car and they ruined it. As soon as they said that I turned that program off.

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This kind of butchery has been going on for a while.

 

I recall how shocked sickened I was by Boyd Coddington's rape and dismemberment of a beautiful 1936 Ford Coupe so he could make a fake roadster out of it. 

 

Then there is gAss Monkey Richard and Chip Foose--more butchery.   Some nice cars destroyed for entertainment.  And then they move on to the next "build." 

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A few years back, at a local show, I saw an Auburn that was the victim of an amateur street rodder. My comment on this forum was "it made me want to puke". I was criticized for my less than gentle choice of words. I usually try to choose my words carefully. Let me say again. When I see this happen it makes me want to puke..............Bob

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I remember the NSRA Nationals on Louisville KY in 2002 where I saw several high end antique Luxury cars retrofitted with newer drive lines an interiors.   AWSOME design and workmanship!   They are the exception, for every masterpiece there were dozens of missed opportunities  to save an unusual car.  Done right they cost a lot more to do than just restoration.

I'm sure none of the owner/builders intend to miss their mark, but that happens on face lifts too.   Personalization of antique cars limits their salability to others with the same distorted taste.   I think those folks gather annually in Arizona for the personalized car auction. 

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I saw the end of the program.  This was a solid car that was turned into a restomod but the exterior was left alone.  They kept the chassis although they boxed the frame rails and added support for the 350 Chevy engine.  As these types of cars are done I had to admit it was a good looking car...original grille, sidemount and dash.  It actually would not take all that much to return it to its stock form although you would need a good donor undercarriage as it is all modern underneath.  I at least liked listening to the reverence these guys gave to the era of car building.  They seemed impressed. 

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I agree with Steve. Seems like shows based west of Texas have less reverence than those from the East though the bottom line is "whatever the owner wants". Agree some rare and desirable cars should not be touched but mass production cars ?

 

Of course having worked for GM in the '70s (and having had some cars very rare and desirable cars today but just inexpensive race/fast cars at the time (like a Devin-Jag and a FI Split-Window). Today my Reattae and Crossfire get no respect so more of the same.

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1 hour ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

I saw the end of the program.  This was a solid car that was turned into a restomod but the exterior was left alone.  They kept the chassis although they boxed the frame rails and added support for the 350 Chevy engine.  As these types of cars are done I had to admit it was a good looking car...original grille, sidemount and dash.  It actually would not take all that much to return it to its stock form although you would need a good donor undercarriage as it is all modern underneath.  I at least liked listening to the reverence these guys gave to the era of car building.  They seemed impressed. 

Like the show, and record it every week, talented guys turning out quality work. Never knew Chevrolet offered a forward opening door model in the '30's, also good to see folks start with a good solid car, saves the owner money. There are far too many save the rotted Mustang shows. Finished product must be worth three times what the car would be worth stock. Bob

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In the future when originals will be unobtainable at any price, these self proclaimed "artists" who mutilate these cars today in order to fulfill their own self-absorbed egos will surely be cursed.

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Well, I've noticed that the new generations, if they like old cars at all, want them street rodded.  They don't care about preserving the past.  Street rodding is a different hobby than Old Car Restoration.  They have very different goals and taste.  Comparing them is like comparing Classical Music with Rap.  They are just not comparable!!!

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18 minutes ago, marcapra said:

Well, I've noticed that the new generations, if they like old cars at all, want them street rodded.  They don't care about preserving the past.  Street rodding is a different hobby than Old Car Restoration.  They have very different goals and taste.  Comparing them is like comparing Classical Music with Rap.  They are just not comparable!!!

 

Very true! I always felt that the restorer's have a respect for history. If I want to drive a car that feels like a modern car then I will drive my new car. I saw an ad for some show on Wednesday night where the owner gets his dream to butcher up a 62 Chevy Bubbletop. I guess I am watching baseball tomorrow night 

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I've been approached a number of times when showing my 45000 mile unrestored 1940 Packard 110 coupe by guys wanting to buy it  (and offering good money).When I ask what they would do with it,it's always the same. Oh,I'd drop in a big block Chevy,tub the rear wheel wells,use a shortened Mustang rear end,blah,blah,blah.I suggest they walk away before I hurt them.

I haven't even shown my recently rediscovered 1925 Buick coupe and a similar fate has been suggested for it.

Jim

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If you didn't see the beginning of the show, you didn't see what the owner wanted.  He got exactly what he asked for and paid for.  The shop did a good job delivering that and they are in the business of making money.

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Sadly, this is the future of the hobby. Resto-mods are what the current crop of buyers and owners want. Think about the cars you love--there's a touchstone somewhere in your past that connects you to that car. Either you owned one in your youth or your father or grandfather had one. There's a connection and through that connection, you understand its strengths and weaknesses. My father drove a 1941 Buick Super coupe to work every day when I was a kid in the 1980s. Hence my love for 1941 Buicks. Had I not been exposed to that, however, would I even know what a 1941 Buick was? Would I want one? And would I want one if I knew it was limited to 55 MPH?

 

Buyers under, say, 70 years old, don't really have any direct connection to cars older than the 1960s. They might know muscle cars and be connected to that era, but anything beyond the late 1950s might draw a blank for them. They like the looks of older cars, but there is an overwhelming impression that anything older than the 1960s is completely unusable in today's world, and possibly even unsafe. You and I know that's not true, but how many people do we get on this very board asking about 12 volt conversions and disc brakes and radial tires, all because they are under the impression that a car without those things is unusable.

 

So the hot rods and resto-mods are born. Owned and financed by guys who like the look but have no idea (and don't care) about originality or how the cars are "supposed" to be. I struggle to sell flathead Ford V8s to anyone younger than 70 years old because the moment I tell a younger person, "It's got 85 horsepower, but it's fun!" their eyes glaze over and they wander over to look at the Camaros. I had a young couple here just yesterday saying they wanted a '30s or '40s 4-door sedan with suicide doors and big enough for their whole family. So I showed them a variety of stuff, including a 1930 Cadillac, a 1941 Buick, a 1940 Ford sedan, and ultimately a 1937 Ford sedan that looks stock but--you guessed it--has a 350 Chevy in it. Guess which one they preferred? Why did they prefer it? Easy to start, easy to drive, easy to maintain (yes, the same is true of a stock 1937 Ford, but to an outsider, an old engine is scary), and 75 MPH cruising.

 

THAT is the future of the hobby and that is why the TV shows show it (whether the TV shows are feeding the impression that old cars can't be used as-is is a different discussion, I suppose). People with no connection to old cars who have only grown up with fuel injection and bulletproof reliability that starts and idles perfectly even in -30 degree snowstorms, well, they don't want to learn about fussy carburetors and ignition points and 45 MPH cruising speeds. It makes me very sad (and worried because this is how I make my living) but the hot rod industry has done a much better job of marketing itself to the general public than the restoration/stock old car industry.

 

That Chevy has a new lease on life, but only because the guy building it doesn't know any better about what it was versus what it could be.

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Matt, I guess my two brothers and I are the exceptions. 

 

We are in our early 50s; we appreciate and have youthful connections to unmodified pre war cars. 

 

When we were kids my dad owned a 1937 Ford Fordor and a 1941 Buick Series 90.  He also had a 1953 Chevrolet and 1956 Buick back then

(I went with him to pick up that Chevy).

 

Not only was our family involved in the old car game, we knew other old car enthusiasts with the same sensibilities; so we were lucky in that sense.  

 

I am a trained historian so to me  it is really thrilling to experience actual 1930s / 1940s style motoring in a stock offering from that era. 

 

The fact that my father had these old cars around influenced us boys to buy our own old cars.  And we like them stock. 

 

We were lucky to have that exposure back in the late 60s and 70s. 

 

We will see what happens to the hobby once my dad's generation start dying off and their cars hit the market.  Hoping for the best on the preservation front. 

 

 

 

 

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Younger folks want to be different in any and every way they can.  Whether its their tattoos, piercings, hair colors, policital views (based on who they are talking to), or car modifications.  Every generation is different.  This one just feels that they all need to be different.  I have yet to see any benefit to it, but I'm just an old codgy 41 year old.

 

They fail to appreciate anything before them and want everything to revolve around them as if the past is completely irrelevant and similarly ghastly.  I deal with the general public daily, and that is my observation.

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I think that Matt has summed up this discussion correctly.  It makes sense that most have old cars that they have memories of when they were new or at least part of traffic on the roads when they were young.  I am old enough to remember cars of the 40's and 50's.  My Dad had a '40 Buick Super coupe that I remember and even came home from the hospital when I was born.  That is probably why I have my '40 Roadmaster coupe and it is my favorite car to drive.  I like the sound of the engine and especially the 1st gear whine of the transmission.  I am sorry to see the trend of restomods taking over the hobby, but that is life I suppose.

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1 minute ago, 39BuickEight said:

Younger folks want to be different in any and every way they can.  Whether its their tattoos, piercings, hair colors, policital views (based on who they are talking to), or car modifications.  Every generation is different.  This one just feels that they all need to be different.  I have yet to see any benefit to it, but I'm just an old codgy 41 year old.

 

They fail to appreciate anything before them and want everything to revolve around them as if the past is completely irrelevant and similarly ghastly.  I deal with the general public daily, and that is my observation.

 

That's a good point. And in trying to be different, they're all exactly the same. Remember when tattoos and piercings were "dangerous" and "rebellious?" Now it's weird to see a 20-something without one or the other. The same is true with the cars that these shops are building. They're all the same. Small block Chevy, 3-speed automatic, 4-barrel carburetor, Ford 8- or 9-inch rear, some kind of Mustang II front suspension. It's boring as hell to look at, own, and drive. So they figure that by starting with something unusual, they'll end up with something interesting and fun. But they start by installing a small block Chevy, a 3-speed automatic...

 

Don't get me started on the CLC national meet a few weeks ago where there were five or six 1930s Cadillac sedans lined up (one wearing V12 emblems, one wearing V16 emblems--these were senior series cars), all of them with Chevy motors, Fatman front clips, and the same generic chrome wire wheels and whitewall radials stuffed into the sidemount wells. Oh, and they were all black. How boring.

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 I think this Resto-Mod thing is that people want the look of the older cars but want to be able to drive in the MODERN AGE in keeping up with the MODERN CARS, I have not Driven my Restored  Original 1956 Chevrolet 3100 on the roads where I live yet, I just take it to shows, I could see where driving with our local traffic would be problem, (would they have the patience to wait for me to get up to speed talking on there cell phones?), I drove a friend of mines 55 Chevy truck a few years back that had a S-10 conversion, It was nice, It seemed like a everyday driver, lots of pep, handled nice, it was just flat black, seemed like people looked at the truck some, but I thought it just fit in with the rest of the traffic, when I see a real original car cruising down the road, it stands out like a sore thumb, very noticeable, the styles compared to the modern cars (No Comparison), just to think that they where all over the roads back then, so I believe a lot of this MOD stuff has to do with the modern day traffic pushing you around and the styles no matter how much they Mod these cars out does not Compare I believe to the Original Auto's of the day, Sure I used to have 60's on my cars back in the 70's but the cars where still original from the factory, I will someday venture out with my 56 Truck and get the experience of driving it and getting the feeling of Original Factory again, I had a 1967  3/4 ton Chevy several years ago with a 6 cylinder 4 speed and it was fun to drive, I know the 56 will be not as good as the 67 in handling,  But I just hope I can maintain it in today's traffic, (I'm sure it will get the LOOKS),  I'm not a huge fan of the Resto-Mods, But they do handle better when driving around Modern Cars....:) 

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Ouch! Harsh words for the custom/street rod/hot rod world. I have been to Hershey, I have seen all of those unsold cars go home. I get Hemmings, I see all of those unsold cars get relisted. I got harped on for what I did to our 54 XK120 Roadster. It was for sale, I watched it get listed for sale a few times. Priced right, complete car, no buyers. So I bought it, my car. There is no right or wrong with cars. You need a balance in everything, if all cars were restored, only color would be the difference. I like them all, great to see quality work from both sides of the car world.  

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Some cars are not worth restoring but make wonderful hot rods. Variety is a good thing. I know plenty of collectors who own cars they did not "grow up with". People do not have to have a memory of a car to want it. I know of guys in their early to mid 30's who own 1920's and 1930's cars. I have been in collections with restored cars, hot rods, and resto-mods all living under one roof. When we are prejudiced against one type of car we all miss out. I do not think anybody will be buying show cars at Pebble Beach and installing LS crate motors any time soon.

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18 minutes ago, Brass is Best said:

Everybody get ready for Richard Rawlings new TV show................... He is going to travel the country and show restoration shops how to turn a profit. Sort of like Bar Rescue with wheels.

 

 

Yes, you summed it up great; Car Flipper gAss Monkey Richard is not a "Car Guy", he is a Money Guy.   Thanks for the warning.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

....

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3 hours ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

Ouch! Harsh words for the custom/street rod/hot rod world. I have been to Hershey, I have seen all of those unsold cars go home. I get Hemmings, I see all of those unsold cars get relisted. I got harped on for what I did to our 54 XK120 Roadster. It was for sale, I watched it get listed for sale a few times. Priced right, complete car, no buyers. So I bought it, my car. There is no right or wrong with cars. You need a balance in everything, if all cars were restored, only color would be the difference. I like them all, great to see quality work from both sides of the car world.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate custom cars and I don't think you shouldn't do what you want with your car. What I DO hate is row after row after row of "hot rods" with a ZZ3 crate motor, an Edelbrock 4-barrel, a TH350 transmission, a Mustang II front suspension, a 10-bolt or 9-inch rear with drum brakes on the ends, and Torque Thrust wheels. That exact combination can live under anything from a Model T to a 1965 Riviera, and usually does. Fuel injection has been available and reliable for 40 years. Overdrive transmissions and independent suspensions have been commonplace for decades. Disc brakes are cheap now. Stop taking the easy way out if you want me to think you're great at building cars (not any you specifically, just generally). I know a guy with a '40s Cadillac convertible that's freshly restored. He hates driving it, so he's going to modify it. I begged him to at least do something interesting, like a Northstar V8 so you have a bespoke Cadillac in your Cadillac. His answer? "Nah, I think I have an old truck motor around here that'll fit." AAAAARRRGH!

 

I deal with a lot of guys selling their very low mileage hot rods and the #1 most common complaint is that they're not exciting and kind of boring to drive and they want to try something new. Well, duh. One of the guys with the aforementioned '30s Cadillacs at the CLC show said that his car drives like his new 3/4 ton Dodge Ram pickup. Great! But I already have a 3/4 ton truck. What I don't have is a 1932 Cadillac V12. Not many people do.

 

If you're going to build a rod, build something unique UNDER THE SKIN, not just by doing the same old thing to a rare body. Sadly, most guys just build a car using the shortest, easiest, cheapest path from point A to point B and then wonder how they ended up with a ho-hum machine.

 

There are plenty of guys with awesome talent and imagination in this hobby. Unfortunately, most cars aren't built by them. Most guys (and I mean MOST) build the same cookie-cutter rod that everyone else has built ten thousand times over. It's like the kid with the radical tribal tattoo on his bicep, which is just like the other 150 hardasses in his graduating class.

 

These guys are unhappy with their rods and think that putting the same hardware under a more exotic, expensive car will make for a different experience. Putting a Big Mac on a plate with a baked potato doesn't make it a steak dinner.

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Matt, Your above statement is EXACTLY how I view RESTORED Mustangs  and all post 1965 vehicles on the Hershey show field or the local cruse night get togethers. To me they KILLED the Antique Car hobby, wined to get in, won and drove away the old timers and their dead stock pre war cars. Some how people think you have to drive your car or truck otherwise in their mind you are not "enjoying" the car, never quite understood that view. Bob

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5 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

That's a good point. And in trying to be different, they're all exactly the same.........

 

Matt's contributions to this "thread" are right on.    Folks today want so badly to "stand out".     Of course they couldn't care less about old cars - they just want to be "noticed".    .  Of course modern technology has given us vastly superior-performing cars. Can we really blame such folk, with their psychological needs,  for hanging the sheet metal from some unfortunate older car on modern components?

 

Matt might appreciate a funny story - there is a group that makes a big deal about U.S. Highway 66 ( mistakenly called "route" 66 - heck...the "route 66" thing has become a whole new religion ! ).  

 

A couple of years ago,   I decided to go.   I  got off Interstate 40 at the Cookson off-ramp, so I could  join the group.....drive what is now "State Route 66" to Seligman, where the group was having a get-to-gether. 

 

As I was driving along at my normal crusing speed  for road conditions there ( 65-70 mph)..I became aware that a pre-war bright orange Mercury ( or what I THOUGHT was a pre-war Mercury)  was pulling up behind me...being a bit of a sadist...I slowly increased my speed....     Hmm...its still behind me !      I was reluctant to take my  "authentic, original"  car much over 90.....not because the car cant do it...just a bit of concern about tire issues.    If that thing really was a pre-war Mercury, I should have left him way behind.    

 

But there is a scream, which I instantly recognized as a "6-71" blower, as the guy shot past me like I was standing still.

 

Some hours later, I spotted that car amongst those parked in Seligman for the event.  Everything on that car -  impressive quality job.  The upholstery was first - rate;   wasn't sure what make modern rear axle and front suspension I was looking at,  but clearly well thought out the way the disc brakes were fitted.   Beautiful dash, complete with well-integrated air conditioning.

 

I  got the guy into conversation, - very friendly, well-spoken, and clearly technically competent.  Showed me under the hood.  The workmanship, as, again was the case with everything I'd seen on the exterior, clearly first-rate.  Yes - "big-block"    Chev/GMC.  ( for those who do not know about such things....those of us who know hot-rods call the "small block" GMC/Chev's  "mouse mouters",  and the "big block" based ones "rat motors".  This was some rat !  I have no reason to doubt  his statement that he was getting around 1.5 times in horsepower,  the cubic inch displacement of that work-of-art.  Of course he cheerfully admitted virtually no part of his car was actually pre-war FoMoCo.!

 

Then I identified myself as the owner-driver of the Packard V-12 he'd passed earlier coming into Seligman.  He was very interested in walking over to my car; wanted to see under the hood of my Packard!        He explained he had to go well over 100 to pass me.    "Wow"...he said, ... as I opened the hood....."that's the biggest six cylinder motor I've ever seen"...!      "Come around to the other side...I've got six more cylinders there ! "     Then he told me all about how he's heard Packard 12's can only get 8 mpg,  over-heat,  are hard to start...... and have teeny pistons.....

 

Matt and I...our thinking....is as obsolete as the big pre-war super cars we USED to call "classics".    Of course we know that if you paid the equiv. in 1938 of $60,00o+ for a super luxury car...it durn well better start RIGHT NOW hot or cold,  and handle ANY speed under ANY weather condition you felt like driving it.    

 

Bottom line - today's thinking of so many younger folk these days.... isn't much we can do about it !

 

 

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   We ALL don't have the same interest/ideas in what our ride should be.                    

 

   I respect your feelings, BUT we need to understand that these mods are going to happen, I wonder how many more times this is going to kicked around.  Personally I have moved on, EACH TO HIS/HER OWN. I do enjoy reading/viewing your stock rides, FOR SURE. 

 

I have ZERO regrets for cutting up my 41 Limited.  It loves 80 MPH, 20 MPG, injected, starts in the coldest weather, great brakes, seat & shoulder belts, plus many other mods.  Sure it looks like a 41, but I did it my way, there are plenty of Limiteds around, no chance they will disappear.  Matt's 41 is a good example, HAPPY for him.

 

Quality of touring cars has improved over the years, more and more are doing their rides, THEIR Way.

 

Dale in Indy 

 

 

 

                   

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2 hours ago, smithbrother said:

   

 

I have ZERO regrets for cutting up my 41 Limited.  It loves 80 MPH......

 

=====================================================================================

Tell us more about what you did to make it safe to drive a 1941 Buick Limited 80 mph.    Discussion about suspension, tires, brakes,  steering...please ?   Oh...by the way,....where do you find it safe and legal to drive  80 mph ?

 

 

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Let's look at the common refrain on this subject,  "Hey it's their car and they can do whatever they want", which of course is NOT the point.  Of course that's true, the larger question is, just because you can, does not mean you should.  Look at it this way, how would you feel about a rich guy buying a B-17 and modifying it by dumping those noisy old radial engines with new quieter engines, or changing out the interior or painting it pink?  Would that be OK, because it's his???

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On 8/29/2017 at 3:28 PM, GARY F said:

As I was surfing the TV last night I came across Iron Resurrection program. They took a beautiful solid 35 Chevy and with all good wood and pulled the body and were going to rework the frame to put in a SBC and different drive line.and customize the body. A perfectly good car and they ruined it. As soon as they said that I turned that program off.

It is getting harder to fix this stuff.. Not harder - just to find some one to work on it.. I have to drive 80 miles to get my radiator re-cored.. I can see why the want the new stuff..Cost and do you have it.. Most of my contacts have past away.. or went out of business.. The  young guys have no clue. What is Grease cup??

 

I just got the velocity channel last week.. I have a hard time  watching it.. to much drama..Not real car stuff...

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59 minutes ago, John_Mc said:

Let's look at the common refrain on this subject,  "Hey it's their car and they can do whatever they want", which of course is NOT the point.  Of course that's true, the larger question is, just because you can, does not mean you should.  Look at it this way, how would you feel about a rich guy buying a B-17 and modifying it by dumping those noisy old radial engines with new quieter engines, or changing out the interior or painting it pink?  Would that be OK, because it's his???

 

Thankfully most guys who can buy a B-17 or a P-51 know what they have and respect it. Kind of like how we do not see many hot rod Duesenbergs. But there were quiet a few P-51's butchered up to be Air Racers at Reno. They are faster, sleeker and look nothing like the plane they once were. I think I have seen them painted pink as well. My point is some people are not happy unless they modify their toy and personalize it. 

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Hey Dale : as long as you are up at this late or early bird hour , which states have 80 m.p.h. Speed limits on the Interstates these days ? I remember the beauty of an 80 speed limit sign in West Texas. Made me feel almost legit driving 95 !   - Carl

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And just to rotate back to the original bit, finally saw the show (DVR) and the '62 started out as a 327 powerglide (what are the oval vents in the dash where the radio went ?). Over 320,000 sport coupes made in '62 (a favorite rental car when growing up) and this one was already mildly modded. Further the shop did exactly what the customer/owner asked them to. The only thing I'd question is a 4L60 (mentioned twice) behind a 430 hp LS3, 4L80 would be a better choice or is that something only a fanatic would care about ? Of course building a Texas coupe without AC ? (at least if there was a compressor it was never visible). Do remember fading all of the brakes to nada in a 61 Caddy on one hard stop from 70 so 4 wheel disks (one of my first cars in college was a '59 with 4 wheel disks so knew the difference) are a Good Thing

 

Now if something rare and desirable (think most remaining 62-64 Impalas became low riders) it would be something different but to me is about like modding a Camry today. What's all the hubbub, bub ?

 

 

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20 hours ago, Brass is Best said:

Some cars are not worth restoring but make wonderful hot rods.

 

I have heard that so many, many times over the years. Think about the essence of that statement. "Hey, you people are welcome to anything we don't want."

 

I have always like customized cars. Believe me, if I decide to build one I am going to start with something nice. That's like the guy with a clamped out POS he says is a nice "father and son project".

 

Yeah, "My name is Menendez and I'm calling about your father and son project."

 

The traditional antique hobby is dying because the people are dying and the world is changing. I used to teach a course on refrigeration based on the concept of differentials. I encouraged recognizing and measuring change. If nothing changes it is dead. See the guy lying on the floor? If there is no pressure differential between the air in his lungs and the air in the room he is dead.

 

A long time ago I figured out the whole TV car show thing is based on producers trying to out-parody themselves.

 

Imagine one of those TV Gemokes talking along and in mid-sentence a commercial comes on. "Whoa, Dude! I never saw that coming!" Think of the epidemic copying of that.

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