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New high zinc oil in the stores


Rivdrivn
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Is this the recommended oil for original nailheads?

Here in Australia we have Penrite, of which the Classic Light 20W-60 looks similar and is rated as a suitable replacement for the SAE 50 oils.

I wonder how the two oils compare in real world use.

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/assets/pdf/tech/VVC_Brochure.pdf

Edited by Mr Jones (see edit history)
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Recommended oils can discussed till the cows come home. I personally would never use a 20-50. 10-30 for newer/tighter engines and 10-40 for higher mileage like 70k and up.

It is advisable to use an oil with high zinc content which is actually called "high" by todays standards but was average for oils 10-15 years ago. Most oils that have high zinc will be classified as a racing oil. Looking at the specs, the Valvoline VR1 does have high zinc content 14ppm so it would be fine. Penngrade1 brand has a slightly higher level at 15ppm than VR1 but Penngrade1 is not as easily obtained in some areas. My local AP carries Penngrade1 so that's what I use in my car in old Indian

 

While this topic has been beat to death for years on every car club discussion forum and magazine, I still have my doubts that using standard modern oil would cause problems for the average Riviera owner who might drive their car like an old lady a couple thousand miles a year. If this was the case older engines would be failing at an alarming rate because there are still a lot of people who aren't aware of the reduced zinc in modern oil. Higher RPM, hard driving, hot temperatures, HP performance mods (particularly increased valve spring pressures) it becomes much more important.

Regardless if it is needed or not, why take the chance when high zinc content oils are readily available so we run high zinc oil.

Edited by JZRIV (see edit history)
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As Jason said, this subject can be cussed and discussed till the cows come home.  The brand of oil is not nearly important as the levels of zinc and phosphate.  ANY flat tapped engine (lifters and pushrods) requires a heavy dose of zinc and phosphate.  It's rated as PPM - parts per million.  The best thing to do is study them for yourselves.  There's plenty of info on the Internet to help you decide what's best for your climate and driving conditions. Don't take the word of your buddy who says what or why he likes it,  This question comes up every year at the ROA tech session and different responses from the crowd as well.  The thing here is that no one has had any bearing failure (yet) so they think their choice is the right one. But they also do not tear their engines apart and they don't have the technology for inspecting them properly. One ROA member who is also into vintage car drag racing, racing at the Bonneville salt flats, and is a regular attendee at the annual SEMA show, goes to the session on lubricants every year to see what's changed.  The only thing new is usually some company has entered the market.  He comes away saying that any oil with the proper levels of zinc and phosphate is good. The other thing he's told me is that the oil companies really frown on uses of additives. They do more harm than good. Just choose the right oil in the first place.

 

Look at the website or call the oil company and ask for their recommendations based on your engine and driving habits.  

 

After all was said and done I settled on Mobil 1 fully synthetic 15W-50. It has 1300 PPM of zinc.  Other oils, especially oils designed for diesel applications - yes you can use those in your engine - usually have high levels of zinc and phosphate. Shells Rotella is an example.

 

The reason I chose the Mobil 1 was because I can buy a five quart jug at Wally-World for under $25.00. You're going to be paying big bucks for self described "racing oils" which usually have the higher concentrations of zinc and phosphate.  

 

I also use real Wix filters from O'Reilly's.  Wix makes NAPA filters but O'Reilly's is closer to my house and on the way home from Walmart.   I think filters would be just as important as a discussion item as oil.  Look online for research from the "Filter Doctor."

 

Ed

 

 

Edited by RivNut (see edit history)
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There are a lot of recommendations for using Rotella T6 5w-40 (1264 ppm zinc, 1147 ppm phosphate; about 50% more than conventional PCMO) and Wix filters in older engines.  If you're interested, Autozone currently has the oil for $60 for 2.5 gallons (enough for two oil changes), with a $12.50 rebate.

 

And is that a five gallon jug or a five quart jug of Mobil 1 at Wally World? ;)

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Just to get a handle on the 15 PPM concentration, here is a good explanation:

 

How is ppm related to concentration?

 

ppm means parts-per-million. But what parts? The amount of particles in a suspension can be expressed as the total volume OR total mass of particles in a unit volume of water AND THESE TWO NUMBERS WILL ONLY BE THE SAME IF THE DENSITY OF THE PARTICLES IS 1 g/cm3.

If ppm is expressed as THE VOLUME of particles to a unit volume of water, then ppm BY VOLUME is equal to µl/l.

However, if ppm is expressed as THE MASS of particles in a unit volume of water, then ppm BY MASS is equal to mg/l.

To convert from ppm by volume to ppm by mass, multiply by the density of the particles. For mineral grains (clay, silt and sand sizes), this will typically be 2.65 g/cm3. For example, a sample with a volume concentration of 25 µl/l will have a mass concentration of 25*2.65 = 66 mg/l.

To convert from ppm by mass to ppm by volume, divide by the density of the particles. For example, a sample with a mass concentration of 100 mg/l will have a volume concentration of 38 µl/l.

When ppm is used as a measure for the suspended particle concentration, it is therefore very important to specify if the concentrations are ppm BY VOLUME or ppm BY MASS, to facilitate comparisons with data where the concentrations are reported in µl/l or mg/l.

 

I have quite a bit of experience treating various types of large water loops. We controlled 1000 to 1500 PPM in most inhibitor instances. Other levels are similar. That is 1 - 1.5%. 15 PPM is getting pritty fine. Better be sure to use the smart zinc that searches for tappet bottoms.

 

My oil changes are once a year with about 1200 miles of easy driving. I just buy a jug of Havoline because Texas Oil Company is written on  the label. And I think some Indian in Texas might be riding through his oil wells in a '60's Cadillac convertible. It makes me happy.

 

Honestly, if I walk in and find a jug labeled in one language I will by that instead. Comprendes?

Bernie

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3 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

Just to get a handle on the 15 PPM concentration, here is a good explanation:

 

How is ppm related to concentration?

 

ppm means parts-per-million. But what parts? The amount of particles in a suspension can be expressed as the total volume OR total mass of particles in a unit volume of water AND THESE TWO NUMBERS WILL ONLY BE THE SAME IF THE DENSITY OF THE PARTICLES IS 1 g/cm3.

If ppm is expressed as THE VOLUME of particles to a unit volume of water, then ppm BY VOLUME is equal to µl/l.

However, if ppm is expressed as THE MASS of particles in a unit volume of water, then ppm BY MASS is equal to mg/l.

To convert from ppm by volume to ppm by mass, multiply by the density of the particles. For mineral grains (clay, silt and sand sizes), this will typically be 2.65 g/cm3. For example, a sample with a volume concentration of 25 µl/l will have a mass concentration of 25*2.65 = 66 mg/l.

To convert from ppm by mass to ppm by volume, divide by the density of the particles. For example, a sample with a mass concentration of 100 mg/l will have a volume concentration of 38 µl/l.

When ppm is used as a measure for the suspended particle concentration, it is therefore very important to specify if the concentrations are ppm BY VOLUME or ppm BY MASS, to facilitate comparisons with data where the concentrations are reported in µl/l or mg/l.

 

I have quite a bit of experience treating various types of large water loops. We controlled 1000 to 1500 PPM in most inhibitor instances. Other levels are similar. That is 1 - 1.5%. 15 PPM is getting pritty fine. Better be sure to use the smart zinc that searches for tappet bottoms.

 

My oil changes are once a year with about 1200 miles of easy driving. I just buy a jug of Havoline because Texas Oil Company is written on  the label. And I think some Indian in Texas might be riding through his oil wells in a '60's Cadillac convertible. It makes me happy.

 

Honestly, if I walk in and find a jug labeled in one language I will by that instead. Comprendes?

Bernie

I don't know, that's just how the industry rates it. As long as it's over 1,000 PPM I don't care how they come up with the formula as long as it's an industry standard.  

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Rivnut, any concern about switching to synthetic in the Rv and having seals get a little loose.  I'm getting ready to change the oil in all my cars and bought 4 5qt Mobil 1's at Wally World.  Didn't get Mobil 1 for Riv, have used Dino oil in that, 10W-30.  My rear main seal is already a bit weepy and would hate to let her loose.

 

I use Puralator gold series filters in daily drivers, still have a few old AC's for the Riv.

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2 minutes ago, Kool-Aid said:

 

Maybe not.  Racing oils are generally made for a whole different performance profile.

 

Without making a specific recommendation (because this can quickly turn into a religious argument), you might consider looking at an HDEO (High Demand Engine Oil) like the aforementioned Rotella T3, T5, or T6), Walmart (!) SuperTech, etc. rather than a conventional PCMO (Passenger Car Motor Oil). If you're leery of putting "diesel oil" in your car (don't be; they're certified for gas engines also), Mobil 1 High Mileage has a good bit more zinc than most.

 

Just as important: don't skimp on the filter.  There are a lot of recommendations for Wix 51049 or Purolator rather than the downmarket brands (Fram, AutoDeath house brand, etc.).  BTW, NAPA filters are made by Wix.

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13 hours ago, JZRIV said:

Recommended oils can discussed till the cows come home. I personally would never use a 20-50. 10-30 for newer/tighter engines and 10-40 for higher mileage like 70k and up.

 

AY-MEN!  Stick with the recommended weight (the winter weight on multi-vis oil doesn't count), unless you have low oil pressure. Putting 50 weight in an engine designed for 30 just loads the pump up with stress & starves the bearings. 

 

If the engine is worn enough that it's showing low oil pressure, it's time to step up to a heavier oil. 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, SpecialEducation said:

 

AY-MEN!  Stick with the recommended weight (the winter weight on multi-vis oil doesn't count), unless you have low oil pressure. Putting 50 weight in an engine designed for 30 just loads the pump up with stress & starves the bearings. 

 

If the engine is worn enough that it's showing low oil pressure, it's time to step up to a heavier oil. 

 

 

I actually use Mobil 1 synthetic in the '65 hot rod Riv with the new build and put the 50 weight VR1 in the high mileage '50 straight eight. Both are about $25 per 5 quarts at O'Reilly's. 

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2 hours ago, riv2x4 said:

Rivnut, any concern about switching to synthetic in the Rv and having seals get a little loose.  I'm getting ready to change the oil in all my cars and bought 4 5qt Mobil 1's at Wally World.  Didn't get Mobil 1 for Riv, have used Dino oil in that, 10W-30.  My rear main seal is already a bit weepy and would hate to let her loose.

 

I use Puralator gold series filters in daily drivers, still have a few old AC's for the Riv.

My rear main leaks too, that's my hesitation in going full synthetic. I want the added performance of it, but I'm worried about it leaking while driving.

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1 hour ago, rocky5517 said:

I bought some Brad Penn from a speed shop in Paterson NJ. The owner said that oil is one of the few that you can mix viscosities.

Just curious, how much does that run per quart? 

 

I under stand that Joe Gibbs has developed a good oil too.

 

Read something interesting the other day about NASCAR engines. Apparently they some kind of babbitt film on the other bearings. The last I heard of babbitt was on cars from the thirties and forties.

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New oil is better than old oil, and I don't recall a spate of oil-related damage to these engines over the years.  Considering how little these cars are driven, you'll be dead and gone before you see any.  There is no magic elixir, nor is there a death in a bottle.  Driving beats worrying; pick yer poison and dump it in.

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Hey everyone, so I'm hearing don't skimp on the filter, find an oil that works for you in your budget. I've got next to nil experience with cars and what I do know was all high and dry between AZ, UT, and CO. Now I'm in GA with my 63. So for oil, and pretty crumby seals (currently leaking tranny fluid at a good rate from power steering res/tranny itself, who knows and a smallish oil leak.) What is the "consensus" on a reasonable oil for hot and gross humid climate? Filter, I'm looking at a K&N 2003, a WIX 51049, or a Purolator of some sort. I heard gold earlier, but the latest greatest on their site says BOSS? Engine and tranny rebuild are out of the question until winter really sets in hear in north GA.

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Dynaflows, as is in your '63, are notorious for seal leaks but otherwise work find. Perhaps rather than a rebuild, just a reseal.  Same with the power steering pump/reservoir.  I had an anomaly that I learned to live with on my '63.  The power steering would leak ONLY if I didn't shut the car off with the crossbar on the steering wheel in a horizontal position.  If I pulled into a parking spot and left the wheel off center, it would leave it's mark.  I just put a pan on the garage floor with some oil dry in it and made sure that I checked the tranny fluid often.  A pan, some oil dry, and a couple of quarts of tranny fluid were a whole lot cheaper than pulling the trans and having it redone.  Somethings you sometimes just learn to live with. ;) 

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If you want to use good, readily available stuff without overthinking it, get a 5-quart jug of Mobil 1 High Mileage 10W-30 and a WIX 51049 filter.

 

If you're going to rebuild the engine this winter, ignore this (which some may dispute as idiocy to begin with), but...  If you don't know where your engine's been or what's in it, you can also go for a quick clean using 4 quarts of oil and a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil.  Drive it for a bit (not around the block; 1000 miles or so), drain it, then refill with your oil of choice.  The idea is that it will loosen a bunch of the crap that has accumulated in the engine so you can catch it in the filter and flush it out with the next oil change.  One of the keys to doing this is keeping the gunk in suspension rather just breaking it loose and moving it around.  An oil high in magnesium is good for that.  Again, Rotella T6 has both good detergent properties and a high dose of magnesium.  There is no Jesus Juice, but a T6/MMO combination might be about as good as you're going to get within the limitations of common sense (e.g. don't start dumping kerosene into your crankcase).  And don't skimp on the filter during this step.  Remember, the whole idea here is to get dirt into your filter so you can isolate it and remove it.

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I posted this on the Buick Post War forum.

 

Look at the Petroleum Quality Institute of America web site.    http://www.pqiamerica.com/

with a little searching you can get info on different brands of oil......also transmission fluid and antifreeze.

 

Here is what I found.......this is not all the oils,  just random brands I chose and looked at their zinc content.

Super Tech Heavy Duty (Wal Mart)   1,298

Shell Rotella T4 Triple (Diesel oil)  1,203

Valvoline Premium Blue (Diesel oil)  1,141

Mobil  Delvac 1300 Super (Diesel oil)  886

Super Tech Full Synthetic (Wal Mart)  838

Valvoline full synthetic   828

Amsoil  synthetic        826

Royal Purple synthetic  813

Mobil 1 full synthetic  709

 

Update....I purchased the WalMart Super Tech Heavy Duty on Monday...my store only have it in 15-40 and it was just under $10 for a gallon.

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There are 28 different Mobil 1 full synthetic oils listed on their website. The Zinc levels listed by them range from 750 to 1850.  So much depends on the prescribed use and the viscosity.  Their high mileage 10-W40 has 1,000 ppm, and their Fully Synthetic 0-W40 has 1,000 ppm.  Both are suggested for older flat tappet performance engines. 

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Super helpful fellas. I don't know what's gone on with the motor or the tranny. Seem to run smooth and shifts smoothly. I'll try the 1000 miles or so with the Marvel and a WIX and see where she lies. I would DEFINITELY prefer to do seals over a rebuild. You guys are great. Can't thank you all enough.

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You can buy a lot of oil and cat litter for what it costs to rebuild an engine. :D 

 

FYI, most so-called "diesel oils" are also approved for and acceptable to use in gas engines.   They're typically called diesel oils because they're primarily formulated for diesel engines (e.g. properties like more detergents), and are certified to different standards.

 

Speaking of standards, oil is certified to standards which change every few years.  The current standard for Passenger car oil is SN.  When these cars were new, the applicable standard was SC.  Things have changed.  ;) 

 

IMHO, there are scads of oils out there which are perfectly fine to use in these engines.  You're not going to burn it up or wear it out unless you go way off the reservation.  No, many of the newer oils don't have as much zinc as the older oils (although you can still get a high-zinc oil if you want one).  However, it's not an apples-to-apples comparison, because the new oils also have a lot of other beneficial additives that the older oils didn't have -- and some of those additives mitigate the effects of lower zinc levels.

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