Brush Information Needed

[Jonah]

Hello everyone,

Recently I came into procession of a Brush that belonged to my great grandfather who got it from a local farm (around Rochester, NY) and then did an amuture restoration in the 40s and 50s.  All of the drive train, suspension and axles are original.  It came into procession of my grandpa in the 70s when my great grandfather died and it sat in his garage until about 2 weeks ago when he gave it to me (I was very interested in it and he told me if I could get it out I could have it).  According to him it was a 1907 but I myself am not so sure based on things I have been reading.  I was also told that the last time it ran was in 1954 and that it has a rod knock.  It has a buffalo carburetor on it and the engine number I believe is 3331 (was kinda hard to read).  Would anybody be able to run the numbers on it and figure out what it is for me?  I will also have many questions in the future as my dad and I just really began diving into tearing it apart to begin our restoration/preservation.  This is a long term project for me and my dad (I'm still in college) and I am really excited to finally begin bringing this car back to life!

Thank you very much!  

 

Jonah Sharp

JonahSharp27@gmail.com

 

[caddyshack]

Congrats Jonah and welcome to the AACA forum.

That is a beautiful Brush that you inherited. From some of my records, I believe that you have a 1909 Model BC. The serial numbers were 1701-3700. The Buffalo carb is correct for that year also. There is a Brush Owners Association that was located in the US but is now located in Australia I believe. Maybe you could contact them for more specific technical information. I have a 1912 but the earlier models are different. Keep us posted on your progress. Good luck and research every item.

 

Skip in MN.

[Jonah]

Hey Skip,

Do you by chance know how to get the steering gear box apart?  Mine is all locked up and I have tried a bunch of different ways to get it open but have only been able to barely get the cover out about a half inch.  Is there some sort of trick that you have come across? I'll post some pictures soon.

 

Jonah

Edited August 17, 2017 by Jonah (see edit history)

[Jonah]

Here are some pictures of what I am dealing with as I mentioned above.

[caddyshack]

Hi Jonah,

I have the same housing (part # 788-D), but I have never had to take it apart. I have a price list of parts for Model D, E, F, and Liberty and they all show the same part number as yours. Internally they mention parts such as; cover, cover bushing, cover gasket, eccentric, eccentric pin, gear-internal, gear shaft, gearshift key, and all external studs and rods. Unfortunately there are no drawings or instructions to show assembly. Mine has a pipe plug in the housing, and I remember cleaning the hardened grease from the housing and soaking it in gunk cleaning solution for a week or so. Have never had it apart however. Good luck, maybe another member has taken one apart and could respond.

 

Skip

[George Albright]

Yes the car certainly appears to be a model BC. I owned one in the late 1970s. It went to England. Yours has the early style radiator. NICE CAR! George Albright,Ocala,Fla.,

[caddyshack]

Front fenders appear to be Ford T. Get some good pictures of an original Brush BC auto if you are going to restore it. Research is half the fun.

 

[Jonah]

hey guys!

 

I really appreciate all the information that you have given me.  I haven't been on the forum as much since college started up again for me a couple weeks ago.  I did get a chance to go home last weekend and work on the car with my dad and I will post pictures in the next couple days and probably ask more questions too!

 

Jonah

[Jonah]

So right now we have the car striped down to the chassis so we can get access to everything.  The big thing we are still having issues with is trying to get the steering gear box apart.  Other than that the big question I have for you guys regards what kind of oil and grease do I use on the car?  This would be for the transmission, differential, the engine itself, etc. 

Thanks!

 

Jonah

[caddyshack]

Hi Jonah,

Transmission and rear axel might use a 600W oil. Engine oil if not rebuilt could use a non detergent 5W or 10W grade.

Bearings could use a standard bearing grease or marine grade either is fine.

Had a question however. The wheel on my later model Brush are non-demountable, yours are demountable. Does your hubcap say BRUSH? And, is the size of the tire 28x3?

Thanks

Skip in MN.

 

[Jonah]

Hey Skip,

 

From what I was told, my great grandfather back when he got the car in the late 40s put model T wheels on it since I am guessing the original wooden wheels had rotted.  Unfortunately I only have generic hubcaps that do not say BRUSH.  

Another question that I have regards more about oil.  How do you know how much oil to put in the car/check the levels?  My car does not have an oil tank or dash oiler.  All it has is a little oiler cup for manual filling.  Also do you know if there is a way to drain the differential of oil so I can get all the old stuff out before I refill it (and how much do you put in that too?)  

 

Also could you send pictures of your car sometime?  I am curious to see how the later models are setup!

Thanks!

 

Jonah

Williamson, NY

[caddyshack]

Hi Jonah,

Just saw your post today.That oil cup on the side of the engine is actually a primer cup for gas and goes on top of the screwed caps above the valves or in my case, above the cylinder and in the screwed cap( your cylinder cap is not tapped). Your missing oil tank and dash control valve would connect to the present oil cup location. Your differential is different from mine. I have a drain plug (Bottom) and a fill plug on top. I don't have any info on the earlier models. I was told to fill my case 2/3 full and to check if leakage occurred. My pictures during the early restoration days were lost when a computer virus destroyed my pictures and contact information. I will attach a couple of recent ones however.

[john ullrich]

Hi Jonah, I own a BC 1909 and your numbers are in line with that year.  I use automatic transmission fluid in my transmission as when you pull it apart you will understand that it really is an auto trans. The original manual calls for 30 weight oil, but if brush would of had trans fluid he would have been using it.    This was the weak link in the Brush auto as the trans design was changed three times in five years.  I agree with the 600 w for the rear.  I use synthetic motor oil in the crank case 40 weight, fill only to the bottom of the rod , as you look inside thru the round cover plate you will see the rod at the bottom of the stroke.  there is a small dipper attached to the rod which should just reach the oil level and pick up oil to fling around inside the crank case. @ 3/4 of a quart.  This is why they call it a lost oil system, the dripper which apparently you are missing adds oil at a rate of @ 10 drips per minute.  there are a number of ways to create a dripper for the oil.  This dripper is primarily to direct oil the front and rear main crank shaft bearings as you will see that there is a "gutter" soldered to the inside of  your aluminum crank case.  As far as the "rod Knock" you may just get lucky and be able to adjust the rod bolts and shim the rod bearing, as the babbit usually is good..This adjustment is listed in the Manuel and suggested that the rod bolts be checked regularly..Try filling your trans and rear end and steering box  with diesel fuel mixed maybe five to one with marvel mystery oil and let it soak for a week or so and then drain the boxes and flush with clean diesel and then leave the plugs out and allow them to drip dry....

Enjoy your project and good luck

Let me know if I can help

John Ullrich

1909 Brush BC

1908 Brush B

1910 Brush D

1907 Cadillac M ( Remember A Brush designed that motor too.)

[Jonah]

Hey Skip and John!

 

Just wanted to give you guys an update.  Between me being in school last fall and no heat in my grandpas barn, work on the main body of the car has been slow.  However now that I am living at home on co-op (part of my degree program) we have made some progress on other parts.  The main achievement we have is finally getting spark!  I had multiple failed attempts with numerous coils (I don't have the original) so my dad, an electro-mechanic ended up designing me a modern buzz coil system that I can put inside the old coil to look authentic.  We got that built and it works great and now we are just getting the original coil box fixed by a woodworker friend.  Other things being worked on involve us still trying to get the steering gear box apart, re-sealing and cleaning out the gas tank, fuel lines, carburetor, etc., and figuring out a plan for the oil system (my car is missing the tank, dash oiler, lines, etc).  If possible could you guys send me pictures of the oil systems and steering gearbox from your cars so I can get an idea of what things are supposed to look like (im flying blind haha)?  Finally, last week I received an email from Scott Carlson (1912 F26) who is less than 2 hours from me and he is also helping me out!  When the weather clears in the coming months we are going to try and meet up at my barn with his car so he can look at my car and more importantly, I can look at his and see a fully functioning Brush.  

 

Thanks for the help!

 

Jonah

1909 Brush BC

[caddyshack]

Hi Jonah,

I would be glad to send pictures of the oil system, showing the lines, tank, and dash drip gauge. Your steering box is the same as mine, they did not change for many years, so can't help you much with that. The Brush is tucked away for the winter, so it may take some time to get at it. It's only -10 degrees today so not much happens in this fridgid state. My Brush came with a magneto style coil box, but the engine never had a magneto devise on the engine. Mine being a 1912 Model F may have used left over parts from the previous years production I was told. Still trying to verify that comment.

I will send you pictures soon.

 

Thanks

 

Skip

1912 Brush F

1904 Cadillac B touring

[caddyshack]

Jonah, 

Oil drip gauge (dash), oil tank, oil line to engine.

Hope this helps.

Skip

[Jonah]

The steering gear box is finally apart!  We are sandblasting everything.  Pictures to come.  The design of it is extremely unique.

[caddyshack]

That's great. Did the pictures help?

[Jonah]

Yeah the pictures were really helpful!  Right now all I think I have to buy is the copper tubing.  We have an old steel tank that is a similar in shape to yours that we are going to use (always looking for a better one but this will work to get me going), and my dad somehow found and bought a dash oiler on eBay that looks pretty similar to the one that you have on your car.  Still a lot of work to do but am making progress.  My gas tank treatment supplies came in today so I can use that to get my gas tank and oil tank cleaned up and sealed.  

[Jonah]

The long awaited steering gearbox photos.  We took extra steps to document how it goes together and how it works in hopes of helping out anyone who may have issues with their gearboxes, and so the Brush community can have documentation of how the it was engineered.  Note that the assembly relies heavily on taper pins and the key to taking the system apart involves a small, very hard to see taper pin up at the top of the assembly (where the steering wheel mounts are located).

Gearbox Photos.zip

Gearbox Photos 2.zip

[john ullrich]

Hi Jonah, My BC has a small rectangle box for the oil reservoir which would actually be simple to make. We have a foot of snow and the barn is covered up, but I will see about some pics....George Albright who responded earlier to you has a set of original brush fenders, give him a call. Try looking at my Brush...there's a utube of it google 1907 Brush its grey and I'm the guy in the top hat.  Give me a call if I can help you out

815 403 3803

John

[Jonah]

Hi everyone,

 

Would anyone happen to have a rough estimate on a typical compression ratio and RPM value for a Brush engine?  I'm taking a college class on engines and for one of my projects I was hoping to use Brush specs just for something fun.

 

Sorry its been awhile since I last posted (I have been checking the forum on occasion though).  I've been really busy with college but I graduate in about 3 weeks with my engineering degree and am really looking forward to having free time to start diving into my car again.  As an update since I last was here, I purchased an authentic Brush coil last spring, got it working, and I can now get the car to spark (really hot spark too).  I have also been doing a lot of researching, reading, and learning (thanks to the help of Scott C.) so that once I am done with school I won't be "flying blind" when I start doing some more of the serious work. 

 

Thanks!

 

Jonah

JonahSharp27@gmail.com

1909 Brush Model BC

 

[Roger Garnett]

Compression ratio and operating speed for early engines are rarely mentioned - but both are quite low, due to the metallurgy and designs. Car engines are (usually) a step up from hit & miss engines - which can run slower than 1 rotation per second (60 RPM). I've heard a single cylinder Olds running perhaps as slow as about 100-200 RPM anyhow - with a later style carb. (which has better adjust-ability) The brush could be similar. I expect the C/R might be around 4:1 - maybe even less, probably not much more. I've thought more than once about digging up a tachometer that can measure these cars - remember, they may be running on a buzz box or magneto ignition, so an external voltage source for an electrical tach is needed, or a mechanical / optical tach. 

 

I searched through my 1918 Dykes Automotive Encyclopedia, and did not find good listings for either. Did find a reference about SAE horsepower ratings - such as a car listed as a 25 / 30 HP car - the 25 would be at 1000 RPM, and the 30 would be as tested on a dynomometer (no RPM listed)

 

I've seen the 1908 Ford model T listed as 4.5:1, and engine speed of at least 1600 RPM.

 

Roger

[Jonah]

Thanks so much for the help on that Roger!  I have some interesting results from some calculations that I did that you all may be interested in.  I am currently taking a class about engines for my engineering degree, and using some known information about the engine (bore and stroke being 4in and 5in respectively), along with the results of a compression test supplied by Scott C from his 1912 Brush (~63 psi) i was able to complete the following calculations:

 

Brush Compression Ratio: ~ 4.3:1 

Combustion Chamber Volume: ~ 19.1 cubic inches

Total Engine Displacement: ~ 62.8 cubic inches  

 

As far as RPM goes I don't think I'll be able to get a definitive answer on that until I get the car running to physically test it.  For now I will record the value from Roger as a starting point for testing later!

[Jonah]

I just saw this shared to a Facebook group I’m in. Looks like someone is making a batch of brush parts (radiator?). I know a couple of people in this group were looking for a radiator so maybe you can get one made by this place. See my attached screenshots.

[caddyshack]

That radiator looks exactly like my '12 Model F. Only problem is that it is an all steel radiator and outer shell. Painted body color. Earlier styles were brass however. Check with a magnet if in doubt.