Early magneto coupling needed- see pictures

[mikewest]

This drum shaped magneto drive must of had a another sleeve that could clamp tightly over this piece. The straight flat spline was used to adjust the timing. Im missing the piece that clamps over this drum and connects the mag . Does anone recognize this type drive? The OD of the drum measures 1.250 inches.   I hate to remove this drum and use a modern coupling. Thank you Mike West 585 738 1541 (PS The motor is a 1911 Wisconsin Model L,  T head 6.)

[Layden B]

There were in those days a flexible coupling that had similar hub on both the shafts and a piece of hose between them. Clamps held the hose tight to the hub. It had the necessary universal joint feature and allowed for easy change of timing. The OD of your piece is probably a common tubing/hose size.

[nearchoclatetown]

Mike, you do realize a round hub the outside diameter of the splined hub with ONE key could slip over this and work? Maybe a set screw to hold it in place. It would be quick and dirty but safe to drive the mag. Your dog to couple to the other one could be welded or bolted to that hub. You would probably need a leather disc between the two dogs. 

[mikewest]

On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 0:16 PM, Layden B said:

There were in those days a flexible coupling that had similar hub on both the shafts and a piece of hose between them. Clamps held the hose tight to the hub. It had the necessary universal joint feature and allowed for easy change of timing. The OD of your piece is probably a common tubing/hose size.

Layden, Chocolate Town,  Thank you much for your views on this matter. I was going to remove this piece, but after these two new emails I am leaving it alone and adapt to it. I had a preconceived notion that I was missing a piece that had all those splines internally but after reading yours and Chocolate Towns response's , I admit Im most likely wrong.  I ham going to fashion a sleeve or rubber that will go over this hub and get the motor running. Thank you!! Mike

Here is a shot of my Wisconsin  T head 6. Bore 5.185 x 5.5 inches

 

Edited August 13, 2017 by mikewest (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

Mike, how do you plan to attach the drive dog to the rubber? If you used a piece of aluminum bar stock, bored a blind hole big enough to slide over the splined coupler and put one key in it you could bolt the drive to it. A set screw over the key would hold the aluminum coupler in place. 

[Layden B]

Radiator hose with a hose clamp.

[nearchoclatetown]

Yup, I got that part. But there has to be another little propeller thing 90 degrees from the one already on the mag for the fiber disc  bolt to. Or maybe I see something different?

[Terry Harper]

Mike, I take it the Mag isn't original to the engine. Here is a photo of the mag coupling on  a model "M" Wisconsin of the same era as your engine.  My later (1926) Wisconsin doesn't have the "spider" type rig that your mag has. Its uses an AT-6 mag with a fiber disk.

[JV Puleo]

Mike... I just had an idea on this. How about a sleeve with a key in it the width of one of the grooves in the spline and 2 soft point set screws at 180 degrees. The key would catch one of the grooves and be entirely adjustable while the set screws would keep it tight without marring the drum.

 

Edit... I just realized someone already proposed this. I should read more carefully.

 

jp

Edited August 18, 2017 by JV Puleo
error on my part (see edit history)

[mikewest]

On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 6:32 PM, Terry Harper said:

Mike, I take it the Mag isn't original to the engine. Here is a photo of the mag coupling on  a model "M" Wisconsin of the same era as your engine.  My later (1926) Wisconsin doesn't have the "spider" type rig that your mag has. Its uses an AT-6 mag with a fiber disk.

Terry, The mag wasn't with the motor when I got it . Im going to use the idea Joe and Chocolate town spoke of . Im working on the project every day now that Im good enough to go to the shop.Its great to hear from you!

[JV Puleo]

I just thought of an even easier way...

 

A collar that is a slip fit over the splined drum... very close but not "tight"

Measure the width of the splines and get some "dog point" set screws that will fit into the spline. Put two of those, in line, on one side of the collar.

On the opposite side put a larger "soft point" set screw. They are made with Nylon, Brass and Silver tips. I generally prefer Brass when it's contacting a smooth surface and Nylon when the set screw goes up against threads.

 

This should be relatively easy to make and saves making a special key to match the width of the spline.

 

[mikewest]

Thanks Joe, Ill send you the measurements..... smile... just kidding .Another great idea! Im going to use it!

[JV Puleo]

Go ahead and send them... I'm game. I'll have to figure out how to do the tapered hole with key way for the mag though... I've an idea for that too.

 

Edit... I just remembered, I think I have an incomplete impulse starter. I could make it out of one of those. Actually, since it doesn't have a starter, I'd bet that splined drum was used with one in the first place.

 

Edited August 23, 2017 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Terry Harper]

Hello Mike,

 

I figured out your magneto coupling. It was a design developed and patented by Arthur J. Milbrath that was granted in 1916. Milbrath was the founding partner of Wisconsin Motor Manufacturing Co. There would have been a two split collar with grooves that match your surviving cog type gear. This in turn was bolted to a drive disk keyed, pinned or interference fitted (drawing is not clear) to the magneto. How many years Wisconsin used this design is not known but I can tell you its the first time I have ever come across it.

 

It would be awesome to find an original or fabricate a replica. Certainly an interesting and unique coupling!

 

Attached is the PDF file of the Patent.

 

Best regards,

 

Terry

 

US1195250.pdf

Edited August 29, 2017 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

That's a pretty clever design Terry, but it looks like it would be a bear to copy.

[mikewest]

On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 8:37 PM, Terry Harper said:

Hello Mike,

 

I figured out your magneto coupling. It was a design developed and patented by Arthur J. Milbrath that was granted in 1916. Milbrath was the founding partner of Wisconsin Motor Manufacturing Co. There would have been a two split collar with grooves that match your surviving cog type gear. This in turn was bolted to a drive disk keyed, pinned or interference fitted (drawing is not clear) to the magneto. How many years Wisconsin used this design is not known but I can tell you its the first time I have ever come across it.

 

It would be awesome to find an original or fabricate a replica. Certainly an interesting and unique coupling!

 

Attached is the PDF file of the Patent.

 

Best regards,

 

Terry

 

US1195250.pdf

Terry, That's neat you found this. Now with this development , I need to figure out what to do or how to copy. I am going to post some pics soon of my project.Im making good progress now that Im in the shop everyday. Thanks again. Mike

[nearchoclatetown]

Mike, picture two pieces like Figure 4. BUT instead of several teeth the bores would be a slip fit to the outside of the splined sprocket. NOW, one of those pieces gets a slot for a removable key. From the pictures it appears like about 1/8 inch key, so the slot would be 1/16 deep and 1/8 wide. Bolt the two pieces together and insert the key wherever to adjust the timing, tighten up the two halves like a connecting rod to hold it in place. 1/8 inch is a guess, measure the sprocket slot width and depth accurately. 

[mikewest]

I think since Terry went through the efforts to find this drawing , I should get the parts made per the print.  Thank you to everyone for your thoughts and comments.

[Terry Harper]

Hi Mike,

If your not in a big hurry it would make a great project for some of my students. At the very least you would end-up with a set of shop drawings

and perhaps even the patterns. Meanwhile I am sure you can come-up with a temporary solution (hose method perhaps so you can get the

beast running.

 

Let me know what you think.

 

Best regards,

 

Terry

[mikewest]

A friend in Calf shared some pics tonight with me of his Wisconsin motors and what he has for mag drives... Low and behold here are two examples  (different but both are locked to the same splined drum I have)  that he has on his motors. Im on the right track now to make copies. Thank you to all who responded. Mike

[JV Puleo]

Mike,

If you decide to get those parts cast, I'd be interested in a set. I just thought of something I could use them for.

I think I'd have them cast in 356T6 aluminum... easier to machine and almost as strong as mild steel, certainly stronger than they need to be to drive a mag.

 

jp

[E_Johnson]

Mike:

 

If you are interested, I have these NOS magneto couplings for sale.

 

My father purchased them from Fenstermacher Automobile Supply here in Minneapolis about 65 years ago.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2017 by E_Johnson
Trying to post photos. (see edit history)

[mikewest]

Im all set for this project but curious on the price. I may buy for future work. Thank you, Mike

[E_Johnson]

Mike:

 

I sent you a private message regarding price.

[E_Johnson]

I sent a private message to mikewest on Sept. 12 but did not hear back from him so I presume he is not interested in them.

 

If anyone else is interested in the mag couplings I posted on Sept 11 above, feel free to send me a private message.  Price is $80, includes USPS postage with tracking.

 

Here are the measurements - six pieces total:

 

Two notched spacers are 1 1/2" diameter, 7/8" bore, 9/16" length

 

The four couplers are 1 1/2" diameter at the spline end and 1" diameter at the opposite end.

 

Two of the couplers have 3/8" bores (one coupler is drilled for a side pin).  Length of each coupler is 1" excluding the splines.

 

One coupler has a 5/8" bore and is drilled for a side pin.  Length of coupler is 1" excluding the spline.

 

One coupler has a tapered bore - 5/8" narrowing down to 1/2" at the spline end and is machined/notched for a key. Length of couple is 3/4" excluding splines.

 

The above can be mixed and matched with either spacer for whatever combination you would need.  Also, obviously the bores could be drilled out to accept a larger shaft if required, etc.

[Terry Harper]

Just an update for folks,

 

Using the patent drawings and measurements of a few surviving parts we were able to "reverse engineer" the Milbarth Magneto coupling

as Mike has on his engine. From what we can tell these were proprietary to Wisconsin Motor Manufacturing since Milbarth was one of the

founding partners. These coupling would have been used on the T-head Wisconsin Model "A" (Stutz, FWD, etc.) as well on the model "L", "G" and "J" engines

and their marine variants (AM, LM, GM & JM)

 

First we modeled each component in 3D. Using these, we assembled a complete 3D model and generated the 2D shop drawings that will

be used for machining the castings etc. We also generated the 3D models for the patterns. We will use Fusion 360 to generate the tool paths

and post process to PathPilot for our Tormach CNC milling machine. I have some nice mahogany all laminated up so next week we can mill out the patterns.

 

The disk is actually leather which I thought was a neat feature.

 

 

 

 

Interestingly we recently finished the core boxes and patterns for the valve covers for the same series of Wisconsin engines. Below is a batch just out of the foundry.

 

 

I love this stuff!

 

 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

The original splines appear to be square, but drawing shows tapered or involute splines. Will you wire EDM them in. And I am wondering why if you are only making one coupler why would you cast it, probably much cheaper to just machine it. 

[Terry Harper]

Yes, it appears that way and yet the patent states that they "... are preferably ordinary gear teeth" We will be doing a number of sets - thus the castings. In this case theWire EDM would indeed be the way to go to cut the teeth. The patent states that this design would provide for fine adjustment of the magneto timing. I guess we will see!

[alsfarms]

Nice work Terry.....

[Terry Harper]

Update....

 

We finished the shop drawings and 3D printed a mockup (just for fun) We also started milling out the patterns.

We should.... key word.... should have the patterns all done next week. We had to set it aside for a bit so we could mill out some parts for our

UMO steam engine project. The patterns will be setup on a match plate with the runners and gates and shrink bob and allow two sets at once to be cast.

I usually mill my patterns out of pine but since these are small and fragile I decided to use some mahogany I had on hand. Since this is a rather open grain wood

I will have to fill the grain before applying the shellac.

 

 

 

 

 

[Terry Harper]

Well since other projects got in the way it took a bit longer than planned but here are the patterns for the Milbrath magneto. I setup the coupling halves as a match plate

so four complete couplings can be cast at once. I also included the runner and gates as part of the pattern. After machining the halves can be split using a slitting saw. The spyder pieces are just a simple one sided pattern. Since I didn't have a drive gear to measure it would be best to hob a new one to match the coupling. This was a fun project which I enjoyed tremendously.

 

These were sized for casting in aluminum but can be cast in iron as well  - the difference in shrinkage rate would make them just a tad bigger which shouldn't be much of an issue with the parts.

Mike I know you don't need a set now but if anyone wants still wants or needs a set please let me know. I also have a shop drawing to go with it.

 

Best regards,

 

Terry

 

 

 

[alsfarms]

Nice patterns!

Al

[Tomkok]

Terry 

 

I am also looking to make one of these couplings. Do u have any casting available? Can I get a copy of the print?

 

Tom

[Tomkok]

Terry

 

Here are pictures of the coupling I made from scratch. 

 

Tom