Cars That Made America

[Bhigdog]

Until the depression. Then wages were cut and  layoffs made them work harder. Any hint of a union sympathy and you fired on the spot or beaten.

Henry started out as a young genius and end up as a dictatorial despot. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely..........Bob

Edited August 15, 2017 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

Some of the information on Buick & GM was off base.  The disappointing thing is that they had Larry Gustin as one of the commentators on the show.  I know Larry and he is probably one of the most knowledgeable if not the most knowledgeable people on early Buick & GM history, bar none.  He was with them and they did not fact check information with him.

 

I also thought that the show shortchanged Durant and his vision in building GM.  It was Ford, Chrysler, GM, not Durant at GM.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Again, the show was entertaining and I was happy to watch it instead of the other garbage on TV.  Yes, I am accepting it for what it is but getting history wrong on a channel called itself HISTORY sort of galls me.  To little attention, in my opinion, was given to the other players in the early days of the automobile and inventions that changed the landscape like the electric starter which made it easier to put women behind the wheel. (please resist the jokes guys! )

[MrEarl]

I agree Larry, but not only was Durant shortchanged, Buick or its founder was

hardly even mentioned. My wife kept asking when is Buick going to be mentioned and I explained to her that Buick like Oldsmobile, Cadillac and Oakland were Divisions of GM. But had no explanation for the total exclusion of Buick when they did call out and show images of the early GM divisions. 

Makes me wonder how misinformed I have been on all the other History Channel series. I mean was there really Thirteen Original Colonies or maybe for the sake of brevity the History Channel decides to not count Georgia. History is history, get it right History Channel! 

[39BuickEight]

I can understand bending facts to create entertainment and appeal to wider audiences, but missing facts that have no bearing on the production is in explicable.  As mentioned in another thread, saying Patton fought Pancho Villa instead of Pershing is a gross error.  Getting it correct doesn't affect the production quality, so....why??? 

 

Showing an incorrect model year car is one thing, but basic facts about some of the greatest generals in our history, that's silly.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by 39BuickEight (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

It is fun looking for mistakes like the wide white wall tires, about 17 or 18 inch, standing along the wall in a scene from the teens. 

[39BuickEight]

Watching these shows does make me want more cars tho

[padgett]

Probably no more than we deserve. Have to remember that "History" like most cable TV companies (may have said Discovery before but is part of A&E group, need to research more) one of the ways they minimize production costs is through repetition and minimization of live action (narration of stills is one way). They also maximize stock footage and long shots (there is also History UK which may be where the locomotive shots came from). The result is that in an hour show there may be 10 minutes of live action, 10 minutes of stills, 30 minutes of repetition (particularly after commercials) musta seen the same dummy dance at least three times (with different narration though), and the rest commercials (and since they repeat the same commercials over and over a DVR is nice. Last night I started watching at 8:43 pm and finished at the same time as the show. (May notice that some commercials now put up a parental guidance block  since many fast forward until it appears.) Don't feel too guilty since I recognized every commercial just from the few seconds it was streaming past

 

So is really a fact of cable TV that in a two hour show there may be 15 or 20 minutes of content. So the "bit players" like Henry Leyland, David Dunbar, and Boss Kettering wind up on the cutting room floor. At least between pt1 and pt2 Edsel miraculously switched from downtrodden Beta to at least Alphaish & Clara became emancipated.

[Restorer32]

I gave up on the "History" channel having any credibility when they began broadcasting programs featuring ghost hunters and investigations into haunted houses. Sadly I think we are slowly entering a new Dark Ages.

[Durant Mike]

Here's my two cents on the show. Now being involved in the Durant car world since 2002 and reading every book, publication I can find on Durant and General Motors, I also keep the "virtual museum" items for the Durant Motors Automobile Museum that I have access to.  Many old Motor magazines, advertising, articles etc.  I have read most of them and feel I have a pretty good knowledge of William C. Durant and his start with Buick, GM and his eventual running of Durant Motors.  I was contacted by the production company archivist in New York earlier in the year for information on Durant. I provided some photographs, and introduced them to our club historian who grew up in Flint and is very knowledgeable about Durant, far more than me.  I even pointed them to other persons and areas that they could get research material to and for them to interview individuals.  They failed and obviously choose to to allow un-familiar writers produce the script for this production.  More research should have been done to present the facts much better.  The show should be called "Ford Cars that Made America Great".   Right down to casting, Durant was a small man with a lot of drive.  He was a salesman and not an engineer, but he did manage to bring companies into production and make money.  He did fight the Seldon patent, not just Ford and the fact that Durant negotiated to buy Ford was correct.  But it was not on a bridge at the dead of night among the mist, it was in a New York hotel room while Ford was laying on his back on the floor because his back had gone out.  Durant offered Ford cash and some stock options at GM but Ford wanted only cash. Durant took it to the financiers, mainly J.P Morgan and DuPont  who still did not have confidence in the automobile industry and would not provide the capital for the purchase.  They also failed to mention that Durant, after he left GM and started Chevrolet purchased 51% of GM stock and then threatened a hostile take-over to make GM part of Chevrolet if they did not let him back in. He successfully ran GM again until 1921 when he had over-leveraged his person stock accounts and GM profits were down. It is true he was asked to leave again after the BOD bought out his personal debt, but within 48 hours raised six million dollars to start Durant Motors Inc.  Durant Motors produced several cars of their own and purchased Locomobile and was exported all over the world. 1931 Saw the end of Durant Motors, the depression got them, but Durant lived well in New York on a pension Sloan gave him from GM in the amount of $2,500 per month. Not a small some even in that time. When Durant died in 1947 his net worth was listed at around $750, but that was when he was in his 80's.

     I know that the show is entertainment and should be taken lightly, but I feel when these production companies do not portray true facts right down to authentic cars, costumes and venues they do an injustice to future generations.  Isn't that the same reason we insist at AACA that the cars be "as they left the factory"?  We want to make sure everyone and future generations learn what an "original" Ford, Chevy or Durant look like.  I get just as aggravated at shows like Mysteries at the Museum or other that show World War II uniforms for Civil War or Police uniforms that obviously look like they were made by a high school theatrical production.  Professional production people must think all of us out here in the public will take whatever they want to show us with fact or truth.  I have sent a letter to the Archivist I had contact with expressing my displeasure on the production.

[gwells]

I was wondering what comments would be posted here regarding this show, which I enjoyed quite a bit.

 

Yes, it is entertainment and built to a price, but the numerous errors where cars are shown as being a certain year and model when they're not even close is disappointing. That clip showing the 1931 Model A slant-windshield as a 1928 Model A at intro must have been used five or six times in the first two shows. They seem to feel that any old car can substitute for any other old car because most people won't know the difference and they're probably right about that. Time after time they presented one make and model as something it wasn't. I agree with Steve Moskowitz; the show's lack of accuracy in the written history is disappointing but the show's much greater lack of accuracy in the artifact history should be really embarrassing to them. I mean, how hard it is to acquire a 1928 Model A Ford for filming?

Did anyone notice that the famous 1901 Ford-Winton race wasn't shown on a horse track (as in fact it was) and the car 'Winton' was driving was the 1909 'Bete Noire' Alco that twice won the Vanderbilt Cup? Didn't take notice of what 'Ford' was driving I was so astounded... The history of this seminal event is well known and there are photos, for goshsakes, so the inaccuracies have to be either laziness or intentional.

 

 

Another one that got me giggling was a clip of what looked like a car from the 'aughts' being driven slowly over alternate-side sandbags with the passenger holding a salver with an unseen something on it out the left side. This is almost certainly an early balancing "auto game" from a post-WWII early car meet.

 

Also was incredulous that they sequed into the story of NASCAR right after covering the Dodge Brothers leaving Ford to start their own make. No history of the organization I've ever read ties its beginning to Prohibition as they did here; there was little 'hop-up' work being done that would allow bootleggers to make fast street cars outrun the revenuers. No one was going to hop up a Model T for a moonshine car... (And as an aside, the most scholarly history of NASCAR claims it wasn't seeded via bootleggers running impromptu races with their 'shine cars, but that's another subject.)

I suppose we shouldn't expect the "twenty-somethings" of today to have much respect for history, or knowledge of it for that matter, considering the educational environment they largely had to endure. And so few of them read anything that isn't on a screen of some sort these days IMO. 

Can't wait to see the quality of their post-WWII storyline. My expectations after the first two episodes are quite low. As someone mentioned above, one of the real negatives of these History Channel productions is how often one sees a single video clip reused. Four, five, six times for a single short piece of film is not uncommon here. Car clubs that recycle material from earlier issues decades before (ones I received back then) usually lose me as a member.

On the plus side is the cinematography was excellent, as was the costuming and set selection; even if the latter was not often accurate, it was attractive and I guess that is mostly what matters these days. 'Fake news' seemingly is all around us in the 21st century...

 

[padgett]

Hoo boy that finale was hilarious. Ed Cole in an airbrushed Mercury ? John Z. inna Buick ? Ford responding to the GTO with the Mustang ? Obviously one of the great shows from Rhode Island.

[gwells]

Remember, it's just entertainment...

[autoluke]

My favorite episode was when they described the "revolutionary Flathead design" as being introduced in 1949.

[EmTee]

I never realized that Ed Cole created the small-block Chevy in order to spark the aftermarket speed parts industry.  Zora Arkus who...?  Clever of Delorian to disguise his GTO as a LeSabre for those Woodward Avenue 'tuning' runs. 

[Steve Moskowitz]

Yep guys, this set History back years!!  GWells hit it on the head...laziness as the correct history was so easily had.  Obviously those involved in the production were not remotely involved in the car hobby nor did Dale Jr. surround himself with enough historians to get the show right.  It would not have taken any more $$$ to do the story correctly.  Entertained, a bit but seeing so many major errors turned me off.  I have yet to hear back from History about the mistakes. 

[Bob Hill]

10 minutes ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

 I have yet to hear back from History about the mistakes. 

 

And you won't.  They succeeded in (1) getting the production on the air and (2) getting the sponsorships (i.e. revenue).  If they weren't concerned with accuracy before the production, they certainly won't be afterwards.

 

Personally, I don't get too bent out of shape about stuff like this.  I go in with the idea that everything produced is first and foremost for revenue generation, not accuracy.  I have said for years - there is no reality in reality TV - and this stretches across almost all forms of TV shows today that are either billed as reality programs or documentaries.

 

I still enjoyed the show overall.  I just ignored everything that was wrong and overlooked it.

 

Bob

[Steve Moskowitz]

Bob, hey I am thrilled it is Car Week on History and you are right of course.  It is probably why I have ulcers and you don't!   I guess I view part of my job especially with our library is to help people tell the correct story and it just is too upsetting when the errors are so over the top.  Oh well, I will quite playing Don Quixote and move on the next thing!! 

 

Funny, it is usually me telling people to calm down!!!

[Restorer32]

I did learn something from the show. Apparently if you were anybody important in the teens, twenties and thirties you had to wear a brightly colored cravat. As  a college prof wrote on one of the papers I submitted, the show was at best "meaningless twaddle".

[Bhigdog]

 

50 minutes ago, Bob Hill said:

and this stretches across almost all forms of TV shows today that are either billed as reality programs or documentaries.

 

Or news.................

 

34 minutes ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

Oh well, I will quite playing Don Quixote and move on the next thing!! 

 

Steve, look at it another way. I'm guessing there were any number of people who, having detected an error or were just interested, did some personal fact checking and thus exposed themselves to auto history and maybe lit a spark of involvement in the hobby.................Maybe................

Your glass is half full.................Bob

 

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[Bhigdog]

4 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

the show was at best "meaningless twaddle".

 

And most mass "entertainment" isn't?.......................Bob

[padgett]

Welcome to the great wasteland. BTW did I miss something, thought Pete Estes and Bill Collins had something to do with Pontiac in 63. It is to laugh.

 

Suspect this will have some people doing research but don't forget the '70s were over a generation ago and in order to question something you have to have some knowledge of the subject.

 

BTW I had several Vegas and thought they were nice comfortable cars particularly after receiving a steel sleeved block. Nicest was an Astre Wagon. Still have the Nomad panels for it. Fastest was my Sunbird with a factory SBC, 4-speed, & posi. Could pin the nose on a pylon and just walk the rear around it. 4 wheel steering.

Edited August 16, 2017 by padgett (see edit history)

[39BuickEight]

Last night I was surprised (well, not really, but anyway) how much attention they gave to Delorean.  Other than being the recognizable car in Back to the Future, the car itself was really an insignificant vehicle in terms of the auto industry.  I think they just wanted to talk about him because they wanted to say "Gran Turismo Omologato" and then felt the need to continue with Delorean's story into the 1980's.

 

 

[padgett]

BTW, keep in mind that John Z.'s lifestyle would most appeal to a millennia or GenX. These are the same sans coulottes that believe Al Gore invented the Internet.

 

So this three parter was really Henry Ford (pt 1), Edsel Ford (pt 2), and John Z. (pt 3) with a bunch of fillers (like Walter P. & Lee I.) for the middle.

 

Makes me wonder what the channel will do about Silicon Valley  1975-1995. Same musical character environment.  Steve invents everything ?

 

Tell a big lie long enough and people will believe. After all, history is written by the winners.

 

Nothing new, see the father image in White Castle.

[Pomeroy41144]

On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 2:31 PM, prewar40 said:

  An organization that calls itself the History Channel

should do the research or change their name.

 

 

"History" left the History Channel years ago.  I am a university-trained historian and history author: I have a good reputation here in the states and overseas and I would never risk that hard-earned credibility by appearing on the so-called "History Channel". 

[Terry Bond]

Somehow, somewhere, if it tweeked someones interest in old cars or automotive history it's ok with me.  Looking at all the junk cut-em-up shows on TV from my recliner while mending a broken leg makes me realize how stiff the competition really is in the quest to generate interest in our hobby.  We'll straighten out the history, just need to think that any exposure might help.

Terry

[Bob Hill]

^^ I agree - I had rather watch a show all cars that wasn't 100% accurate than watch a show where they cut up a antique car and make it into something horrible

 

Bob

[Grimy]

49 minutes ago, Pomeroy41144 said:

History" left the History Channel years ago.  I am a university-trained historian and history author: I have a good reputation here in the states and overseas and I would never risk that hard-earned credibility by appearing on the so-called "History Channel". 

I hope the professional historians are cringing and regretting their participation.

 

There were so very many errors that I only will mention one:  "Ed Cole" was trying to show his boss what a "hot rod" performance would be with a V8--from the context, installed in a Chevy.  The "Chevy" was a 1955 Mercury, and Ed Cole's V8 appeared in the 1955 Chevy. 

[cahartley]

Oh come on........it isn't THAT bad.

The general populace doesn't know the intricacies of every single detail.

Better they become educated about the big picture than nitpick about details.

If people don't don't get involved regardless of minutia the hobby WILL die....... 

 

[Steve Moskowitz]

My take is everyone is right here.  No one died because of the series and we all know that for years that history has been misrepresented on TV and films.  However, those that are offended (including me) that a channel alleging that they are representing true history made so many gross errors (not small errors but huge errors) hopefully are upset as history is important to us.   Even the word History says it all:  "from Greek ἱστορία, historia, meaning "inquiry, knowledge acquired by investigation."  The opportunity to get this story right was too easy and very basic research was never done. 

 

I realize there are those that do not think it is important to preserve our automotive heritage correctly and maybe someday if cars no longer exist and people are flying around in the air a car will be gone from our memory.  I hope not and I hope we can push people to do better and to try to get stories correct.  As I said before, this show seemed to be put together by lazy people who were in a hurry to piece something together. I still watched and will still tune in to every car show I can because I have a very serious disease known as the car hobby!

[Bob Hill]

19 minutes ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

My take is everyone is right here.  No one died because of the series and we all know that for years that history has been misrepresented on TV and films.  However, those that are offended (including me) that a channel alleging that they are representing true history made so many gross errors (not small errors but huge errors) hopefully are upset as history is important to us.   Even the word History says it all:  "from Greek ἱστορία, historia, meaning "inquiry, knowledge acquired by investigation."  The opportunity to get this story right was too easy and very basic research was never done. 

 

I realize there are those that do not think it is important to preserve our automotive heritage correctly and maybe someday if cars no longer exist and people are flying around in the air a car will be gone from our memory.  I hope not and I hope we can push people to do better and to try to get stories correct.  As I said before, this show seemed to be put together by lazy people who were in a hurry to piece something together. I still watched and will still tune in to every car show I can because I have a very serious disease known as the car hobby!

Steve,

 

I agree with you in principle. It is sad to see the History Channel make documentaries that do not accurately reflect history but while it "upsets" me, I just pass it off as to what seems to be happening all around us - too many folks are not interesting in doing their job correctly, they just want to get the product out there for the $$ and not worry about the quality.  Call me a pessimist but I do not believe it will get better - only worse.  I don't think the History Channel truly cares what the average viewer thinks as long as the advertisers keep buying ads.  Those of us who watched it as knowledgeable"critics" don't really matter to them because we are most likely a small portion of the viewers,  so I refuse to get "angry" about something I have no control over.

 

On the flip side, if the program sparks an interest in the old car hobby, it is a good thing despite the poor preparation. 

 

Bob

[Restorer32]

If only Ken Burns would do a comprehensive series about the early history of the automobile and how it impacted society. Up until only a relatively few years ago there were still folks living who started life before the automobile became common. Look how far we've come in 120 or so years. 

[padgett]

Just need to revise the listing from "History" to "Comedy".

[R Walling]

 The "car show experts" will be quoting these "facts" for years!

 Get ready for the BS.

[dibarlaw]

3 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

If only Ken Burns would do a comprehensive series about the early history of the automobile and how it impacted society. Up until only a relatively few years ago there were still folks living who started life before the automobile became common. Look how far we've come in 120 or so years. 

Jeff:

Ken Burns did an absolutely fantastic program "Horatio's Drive" for PBS I believe in 2003. The detailed story of Horatio Nelson Jackson's 1903 drive from San Francisco to New York in a 2 cylinder, 20 HP, 1903 Winton.

 I have the DVD and the companion book. I re watch it every so often.

Larry

 

[Paul Dobbin]

Quote

 

    

Revised History is always with us, even at AACA Car Shows among entrants.

Ever hear some of the "history" about rarity and limited production at car shows?  Seems that embellishments to a cars history is common.  Just because it's the only one the owner has ever seen, does not make it rare.

I enjoy TV shows about cars, but question a lot of so called "Ëxperts", even on this forum.  I live with it.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Paul Dobbin (see edit history)

[EmTee]

I remember when "TLC" was "The Learning Channel"; now it's just "TLC".  When the History Channel becomes known as simply "HC", all will be forgiven.  

Edited August 17, 2017 by EmTee (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

2 hours ago, dibarlaw said:

Jeff:

Ken Burns did an absolutely fantastic program "Horatio's Drive" for PBS I believe in 2003. The detailed story of Horatio Nelson Jackson's 1903 drive from San Francisco to New York in a 2 cylinder, 20 HP, 1903 Winton.

 I have the DVD and the companion book. I re watch it every so often.

Larry

 

 

I also have the DVD and have watched it several times.

 

The other Larry

[Restorer32]

Every Ken Burns documentary I have seen has been outstanding.

  Not Larry

[60FlatTop]

One would think those TV production companies would align themselves with the AACA and produce a really accurate show about cars.