Early 1920s Studebaker ?

[oldcar]

"One thing that is clear is that the right hand side of the car  did not suffer the same amount of "knocks and abrasions" as the left had."  Remember it is a Right Hand Drive car and that the left side is the "kerb" side

Either very early on the Studebaker had a very short owner/driver or they may have lost the parking "guide" from the left front mudguard.

This would have had a "standard" about 12 inches long standing vertical from it. It would have had a ball or tear-drop attached to the top so the driver could judge where the car was in relation to an obstacle on the road-side. That this one lost it's vertical secition may go some way to explain the "parking" damage to the outside edge of both front and rear mudguards (fenders). while the drivers side is almost completely un-scathed

 

bj.

Edited November 14, 2017 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

Hi Bernie,

The floorboards and running boards were made from hard yellow pine.  Like mine, yours looks to be in very nice shape and very minor restoration is needed. The original linoleum was a light gray color, not black. Your 97 year old linoleum has most likely dried out and darkened with age. Nice original picture on the Shorpy Site shows an original car  http://www.shorpy.com/node/19827?size=_original#caption. I have several other original photos that also show the light gray contrast and you can see the original 1922 Special Six Photos I posted a week or so ago showing the same.

Scott

 

 

 

[oldcar]

Thank you Scott

I will need to go back and look at the suppliers range of colours.  I still think that for my car that the contrast between the black mudguards and chassis rails together with the dark blue body, a light grey may look out of place. I need to put my "thinking hat" on to give this the necessary thought. As you are all too aware I am not necessarily a slave to originality. I tend to work on the rationale "if it looks right it is possibly OK."

 

Bj.

[Stude Light]

I never know which way you'll be leaning  so just giving you the info.

 

By black mudguards are you referring to those curvy things that go over the wheels? 

Scott

[oldcar]

Post deleted. I have sent it to Scott as a PM.

 

Bj

Edited November 15, 2017 by oldcar
Delete post. (see edit history)

[oldcar]

I have now sent two orders, one for the "repair sleeve" from Jergens and a 24mm tap from Ebay, so something will happen eventually. I have a heap of other things to do so I do not expect to be too bored.

I am hopeless at waiting for paint to dry.

 

Bj

[oldcar]

At long last I have now learnt where to hood (top) for the Studebaker has ended up. I hope to be able to go and collect it next week.

It is certainly off the beaten track, up in the hill country of Victoria, anyone interested in seeing some our beautiful country could try finding in on Google maps:- Sargoods Road, Goorman, Vic Aust. 

 

Bj

[oldcar]

We are going to Goorman next Tuesday to collect the Stude Top but now I am wondering if it will fit into Helen's VW Jetta trunk.  Can some one please give me the measurement for the length of the bows from the pivot point to the top of the bow.

 

Thank you

 

Bernie j.

[oldcar]

Meanwhile I cannot help wondering why people paint these door handles. To my simple mind they are far better to be left in their natural state.

 

Bernie j.

[rbk]

On 11/14/2017 at 4:59 PM, Stude Light said:

By black mudguards are you referring to those curvy things that go over the wheels? 

Scott

Bernie

Since you are from German ancestry ,you should know the German word for fender or mudguard " KOTFLUGEL" which would translate to feces wing.

On the old open cars it was to keep the shit of the inside of the car.

Maybe the American "fender" was to fend off similar  substances.

 

[oldcar]

If you had told my grandfather that he was a German he would have had a fit. Despite the fact that he had lived here in Australia for over 60 years he even changed the spelling of our name in 1914 to "anglicise"it. There was a strong anti-semitic sentiment long before Hitler came to power in the then new state of Germany. This was formed by the combining of several principalities. Hanover being just one. You need to brush up on your European History.

He left the Jewish faith when he married my grand-mother, a protestant in the 1860's. 

 

Bj.

[Stude Light]

The gypsy top is 147cm wide, 105cm tall (from the pivot) and about 30cm in height when collapsed and folded up. The longest bow support is the rear one that angles backwards at 45 degrees (105cm). The next tallest is the one over the rear seat at 81cm. Hopefully it will fit in the Jetta. 

Scott

[wayne sheldon]

Sorry to say, I have not been following your progress throughout the twelve pages of postings. I saw and read it when you first began, and just happened by again today (having noticed a new update date). Going straight to the last (12th) page, I found comments about the running boards. 

A long time ago, when I was restoring the 1925 Studebaker ER coach that I used to have, I had an interesting run-in with the running boards. One side was in excellent condition, needing only new covering (gray linoleum by the way). The other side had been involved in some sort of incident, resulting in much of the board being broken away and lost. This was long before the internet, and getting answers to many questions was far more difficult and time consuming than what we have available today. So, after many phone calls, a few letters, and lots of bad advice, I found my way to a business that specialized in exotic woods for specialized construction, arts, crafts, and restorations (fantastic!). And it wasn't even very far away. So, after a few phone calls, I headed off, with a big chunk of the broken original running board along for the ride.

Now, like one of your comments above, I don't try to be a perfectionist. I usually try to make things "as close to correct as I reasonably can". I wasn't looking to get an exact match, just something close to correct. I wander into the place, introduce myself, and hand my remnant over to the fellow. Turned out, THIS guy was amazing! And he really knew wood. I had said that I wanted something close, not necessarily an exact match (which he obviously did not hear, first impression, not the best). As soon as he began looking over the piece, his eyes lit up, he exclaimed *WHERE did you get THIS???" I repeated that it was from my '25 Studebaker, and that I wanted something close to match it. He told me the specific species of fir (I wish I could remember the name?) and gave me a rundown on its history and how it related to numerous other types of fir. He told me that that particular species hadn't been commercially harvested or used since World War II, but that there were a couple possible sources in the USA where it could probably be had, for a price. He then recommended using a carefully chosen piece of common Douglas Fir, as it was nearly the same, and as long as I got good straight cross grain it would be fine.

As it had been a slow day in the exotic woods business, we chatted about wood for a bit longer. They provided special wood for the restoration of musical instruments among so many other things. He seemed very knowledgeable, on a wide range of special woods, where they were grown, and their uses. I enjoyed meeting him, and would like to have had more opportunities to discuss the subject. But never saw him again.

 

Good luck with that Studebaker!

[oldcar]

Thank you Wayne

Fortunately for me both running boards are in very restorable condition. I did panic for a moment when I thought the a small section from one rear corner had gone missing. Imagine my relief when I found it swinging still attached by one very loose nut and bolt to the rear fender.

 

Bj.

[oldcar]

Moving right along as "they used to say", perhaps this should be titled how to fill in one of those spare hours on a Sunday morning. I have now recovered the errant corner of running board. This is an essential part of the cut out placed so that the enthusiastic owner of the 1920s could reach the oiler for the rear spring shackle pin with his trusty oil can. No doubt doing his weekly weekend schedule of maintenance on the Studebaker. The end of the running board had originally been slotted to take a strip of timber across the end to strenghten it where it bolted to the fender.

To replace this and so effect the repair I cut a 1/4 inch thick strip from an off cut of "Australian River Red Gum". This is an incredibly strong and virtually water proof timber. As the name implies it grows along the banks of some of our larger rivers i.e. the Murray River, in a similar manner to Willows. It virtually grows with its roots in the water. In the past it was a favourite timber for Australian house builders to use for foundation "stumps".

Having sanded it down to a nice "tap in" fit this was given a generous coating of water proof glue and carefully tapped into place.  All that this will now require is re-drilling the fixing hole where the edge of the fender is attached.  Once it is covered by some new linoleum no one will even know. Yes, I will be filling the old nail holes etc and will give the entire running board a final clean up with my sander. I do also have the original metal surounds that protect the timber edge to the "oiler access hole". No! I will not be nickel plating them. The one from the other side needs a minor repair and then they will be both painted black.

 

Bj

 

Edited November 19, 2017 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

I believe those are made from zinc. It cleans up well but tarnishes quickly. I guess you won't have that problem if you paint them though. The were originally just polished and the only thing that was nickel plated were the slotted spiral nails that held them on.

 

Looks like you are making some good progress.

 

On 11/17/2017 at 2:24 PM, rbk said:

the German word for fender or mudguard " KOTFLUGEL" which would translate to feces wing.

On the old open cars it was to keep the shit of the inside of the car.

Bob,

That's pretty funny. I looked up fender and it appears to have been derived from defender..Maybe defending yourself from mud or feces.

Scott

Edited November 19, 2017 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[JFranklin]

I cleaned up the Zinc on my car and gave them a spray of clear. They are holding up very well 4 years or more.

[oldcar]

I will have a go at cleaning them with some toothpaste and an old brush, Not the one I  am currently using for dental hygiene. Tooth paste is quite a good scratch free abrasive.  Just do not let your wife/girl-friend/partner* catch you using her/their brush.  
 

Bj.

Edited November 19, 2017 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Having cleaned and polished one of my "zinc" escutcheon plates I have decided that a nice coat of paint is just what the doctor ordered. This will happen only after I have decided on the most appropiate colour Linoleum to use as this will be carried through into the front foot-well. (toe boards, or what ever the official designation is) and will co-ordinate with the rear carpet. It may also have some influence on the colour and design for the "Lap rug". People with long memories may recall the "Faux Ocelot" lap rug especially made to fit in with the colour schene of the 1922 Packard Single Six Convertible Coupe.  

forums.aaca.org+My+next+project+1922+Packard

To save you from all the effort of scrolling through a lot of pages of "waffle" I have lifted the relevant photograph for you. You however may like to look at another one of my "lost cause rescues".

Last I knew, the car was still in Australia but I have not actually heard anything of it since a week or two after I sold it. 

I think from driving it a couple of times that it was potentially a really nice car. I hope that the present owner where-ever he or she is appreciate all the effort that went into it.

 

Bj.

Edited November 20, 2017 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Hello Scott

Thank you for your p.m.

I have just returned fron a 250 mile round trip to rescue the TOP. Unfortunately it has been very badly stored for the past six years, so the fabric is all but falling apart. It is undoubtedly the original.  At the sort of values you are suggesting, my only alternative is to fold it up as best I can and have a new "Bag/envelop" made to cover it up whilst it is attached to the rear of the car. At least the folding frame is intact. I certainly am not ready to sell the car right now but more than ever I will keep a close watch over the budget. 

I have also received the repair "kit" from Jergens in the mail today so hopefully that will take me one step closer to having the motor running.

I am still waiting for the 24MM x1.5 Tap to arrive so I can attend to the stripped spark-plug thread.

 

Bernie.

[Stude Light]

Being able to reunite the top with the car is huge....great job on being persistent and rescuing it, otherwise it may have been lost forever.  I have a lot of photos of my original top during disassembly if you need any help. I am fairly certain (not 100%) that the 1920 top had two oval windows.....I'll have to check out the parts manual. The long rectangular one that you have is correct for all the other models and had bevel glass until 1923 when they switched to just flat glass.  I'll bet you're happy to finally bring that home!

Scott

[oldcar]

You are 100% correct Scott! 

Even that it had been badly folded and stored, it is great to have it safely at home. What I had not realised is that there were TWO spare rear axles and rather rusty wire spoke wheels that go with it. Having driven up to Gooram in Helen's VW Jetta sedan there was just room for the top. Looking around "Lance's" place I doubt that they will be going anywhere. It is one of those farm-yards that is the last resting place for any number of cars, trucks and various other sizes and forms of motorised equipment. 

The one big problem is that every time I meet a new person who has some, perhaps limited, knowledge of my Studebakers past life you get a different story. Apparently "Lance" or perhaps Mick as he prefers to be called, was employed to collect the car from Merrigum after the sale.

His story is that the car was stored in a  very low, falling down, shed and that he had to take the top  off the car in order to get it out. That the "farm" at Merrigum was much the same as his with derelict vehicles scattered about. That the Studebaker was probably in better condition than most of the other "vehicles". Not at all as I had been led to believe previously. That it had spent most if not all the time there with no attempt to do anything to get it running seems to be more and more likely. I must learn not to judge others by my own standards.I just wish I could find someone who can tell me about the car's history for the years between 1920 and the late 1960s-early 70s. It is an very big gap.

The rear window creates another mystery? As you describe it, the rear window makes it 1923 or later. Could it be a replacement or "borrowed" from another car? we may never know! The other problem is that to the vast majority of people it is just another old car and not really worth thinking about.

Turning the top over reveals a system of straps between to front and the main "bow" these would have been to support the side screens when not in use.

 

Bj.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

I verified in the Parts Manual and 1920 Sales brochure that it should have two oval windows with bevel glass

 

I'm still trying to determine just what a Gypsy top refers to. Why Gypsy?

Edited November 22, 2017 by Stude Light (see edit history)

[oldcar]

It was all a very long time ago and there seems to have been no set rule as to what came to Australia, often the dumping ground for experimental cars and one off options.

I tend to think that my Light Six was very possibly a "sample", right hand drive, car sent to an Australian Distributor to "test the market". This would explain such things as the nickel plated radiator surround, headlamp bodies and windscreen frame along with the "export" magneto ignition and wire spoke wheels. 

In the distant past I had not one but two "very strange" 1928/9 Riley 9hp that were more "End of model" cars that incorporated parts from two or three previous years cars, no doubt cobbled together to be sent to the "Colonies".

 

Bernie j.

Edited November 22, 2017 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Stude Light]

I disagree. I think you have a nice original 1920 Light Six that had some repairs and modifications over the years. Someone decided to nickel plate the windshield support and radiator shell, someone probably broke the fan support and put the later model design on, someone wanted a motometer so they drilled a hole in the radiator cap and put one on, someone probably replaced the top at one time and put the later window frame in. When the car was young it had to be maintained so you went to the dealer and they give you the latest parts. The engine had probably been apart 3 or 4 times for service. Not a big stretch of the imagination. These cars were used and not set aside to be some type of time capsule. There is nothing on your car that either didn't come with it or can't be easily explained.

 

My car had a number of modifications too. Someone drilled out the dash and put an oversized Warner speedometer in. Someone put an electronic voltage regulator on. It had bumpers added, a stop lamp and brake switch, a motometer, turn signals and switch, a horn relay, a fuel pump, a fuel pressure regulator, the top was replaced at least once, it had extra brackets on the spark advance linkage, it had rubber on the running boards, it had a switch added to the dash and an extra driving lamp on the bumper, it had a modified starter, the front engine mount was brazed to repair it, it had the wrong coil. I was also missing some parts. This was all done to the car before 1975 as it sat for over 30 years in a garage. So a lot can happen in 90 years.

[oldcar]

Hello Scott

I agree with almost everything you say BUT as far as I have been able to determine my car has not been started or driven since the end of 1941. I have spent hours and hours trying to research it's past history and keep on comming up against a blank wall.

 

More detail tomorrow.

 

Bernie Jacobson

Edited November 22, 2017 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Hello Scott 

It is not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. You have NEVER seen my car except in the photographs I have posted here. Some taken by me in the time I have owned the car, some given to me by the son and daughter of a previous owner who had the car from the late 1960s or early 1970s until 2012.  Approximately 40 years without doing anything to or with the car. From what they have been able to tell me, when their father bought the car it had been "on blocks" since 1941/2.  One or two phptographs were given to me by the Auctioneer who ran the Deceased Estate Clearing sale at Merrigum in 2012. I.E. another 30 years.

Kevin Gange bought the car in 2012, he brought it to Melbourne and placed it at the back of the Silver Top Taxi garage where I saw it 5 years later which brings us up to date and a total of 75 years "Off the Road". I am desperately trying to find someone who can tell me about the cars earliest history from 1920 to 1942. It's first 22 years presumably "on the road". I have not invented a "story" about the total of miles recorded on the speedo some 36,000 miles. I have just this week met "Lance" who collected the car from Merrigum and transported it to Melbourne.

Disregarding the above, you seem to have a problem understanding I am not a high pressure Dealer creating a sales pitch!  I am an 81 year old ENTHUSIAST who has been involved with what I know as Vintage Cars (1918 - 1930) and what is known in Australia a PVTs. (Post Vintage Thorough-breds, 1931 - 1940) since I was a teenage school boy. That is for more than 65 years. I am a current member of the VSCC in the UK, I am a Hon Life Member of the(Lagonda) Rapier Register (UK) I am also a Past President and Hon Life Member of the VSCC of Australia. I have only recently joined the Historical Studebaker Register (Australia). In effect you know nothing about me or my car, so who are you to "disagree". If it offends you so, much, I will NOT post anymore information on this part of the Forum! 

All I know about my Studebaker is what I have been able to discover talking to the friends and family of the previous owners.

The person I bought it from had bought it five years earlier at a Deceased Estate Clearing Sale. I have sopken with the daughter of the deceased man who could tell me that her father had bought it as a non-runner either in the late 1960s or early 1970s. She could tell me that her father had pulled it out of a fowl shed in Springvale, an outter suburb of Melbourne.  The "Registration Lable" attached to the windscreen was in efect a receipt for the payment of that years Government Road Users Fee. (Road Tax) A new lable was issued every year. Legally you were not entitled to drive the car on the public roads without a current "label".The last such label that is still on my Studebaker was issued in 1941. At that time car owners took their car to their local Police Station and a Policeman removed the previous years "label" and placed the new one on the cars windscreen. I can remember going as a small boy with my father to pay the "Registration Fee" and have a new lable put onto this cars windscreen.

I may be 81 years old but I am certainly not an idiot and I attempt to be as honest in all my dealings as I possibly can be.

It is a well known FACT that cars sold in Australia were and still do differ, usually to some degree in specification and cosmetic detail, from cars made for the manufacturers "home market".

If you have not visited Australia you can have no conception of the geography of the country or the distances involved.

In addition to traveling extensively in the UK and Europe, I have visited the USA for a period of approximately six weeks and travelled up and down the East Coast by road, where ever possible avoiding the "Interstate Highways".

 

Thank You and Goodbye.

 

Bernie  Jacobson.

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by oldcar (see edit history)

[OnSafari]

The refurbished wheels certainly look good. This Stude is cleaning up nicely.

[Stude Light]

Sorry, didn't mean to upset you, I just doubted it was anything specially made. 22 years of driving and wear is still alot. Maybe you're right and it was a special marketing car. The problem you have is the same that many of the prewar owners have, the original owners are long gone and so are their stories. Hopefully you are lucky enough to find those answers.

[Guest trap442w30]

oldcar,

I have been to Australia, but not that far south (In the early 1990's I drove from Sydney to Cairns). 

I am working on a century old Studebaker that had been sitting for 4 decades and I am awaiting pictures and information from the son of the guy who owned it in the 1950's to 1970's (2,000 miles away in Arizona)   I'm lucky, as I don't need to drive there to pick up any parts.

I was doing a little research on a "Gypsy" top.  I found some triangular "gypsy" front side curtains that attach to the windshield and open with the door (1920's model T among others), but the rear triangular shaped extensions of the back that wrap up the sides were called "gypsy wings" on a model T.  I don't know why they got the "gypsy" name.

Your car is looking good.

Tim

[oldcar]

Without putting the top back on the car I cannot be sure but I "believe" that I have a full set of side screens, they all need new Transparent Material (Perspex) When I have some spare time with nothing to do, I will lay them all out and photograph them. Just don't hold your breath.

Generally speaking in Australia as in the UK, Gipsy's are not held in particularly high regard.

 

Bj. 

Edited November 23, 2017 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Bloo]

I could be mistaken, but I believe a Gypsy top is one that has the covering extended from the back window panel around the side to the sloping part of the rear bow.

 

Here is a 1913 sa-25 that lacks this feature, and another car (possibly a 1919 light six?) that has it.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2017 by Bloo (see edit history)

[C Carl]

And Gypsy Curtains. Very effective in reducing buffeting under way. So much so , that I fly them most of the time. They fill and bow out as speed increases. 1924 Cadillac.   - Carl 

 

[oldcar]

How about leaving the Gypsy's to get on with their  cyrstal ball gazing and palm reading. I am much more interested in the twin spare wheels. The same Beige car appears to have a second windscreen for the rear seat passenger? #312. 

Was this option available for cars fitted with wire spoke wheels and does anyone have one they would like to sell? I am also looking for a pair of the clamp arrangement that supports the folded top. Can any of the owners of the apparent hundreds of Light Six "parts cars" assist?

 

Bernie j.

 

 

[Bloo]

I'm sorry, but I don't know. I can positively identify the 1913 sa-25, as well as several details on that car, because I own one. It is not my car in the picture.

 

The beige car was identified by either the site I found it on, or possibly the filename, as a 1919 Light six.

 

I have not commented much because I know so little about the Light Six. I have sure enjoyed reading this thread, and I like what you are doing.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Bloo (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Hello Bloo and welcome,

Two month's ago I did not even know what a Light Six was. It was not until after I had bought it that learnt what a Light Six was and discovered the traps for young players in the early EJ cars.

 

Bj

Edited November 24, 2017 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Meanwhile all has not been totally stagnant on the cylinder head front. I now have received the "repair sleeve" for the damaged spark plug thread. All I am waiting for now is a new 24 -1.5mm tap and I can do the necessary thread replacement. The repair "sleeve" is 24mm on the outside and accepts an 18mm sparkplug in the i/d. It comes with a purpose made punch. after screwing the "sleeve" into the newly thresded oversize hole in the cylinder head the punch fits snugly over the four projecting pins. These are driven down through the thread locking the "sleeve" into place.  Hopefully this will be a permanent cure and will take the motor one step closer to running.

Every morning I will be out checking the mail box.

Bernie j.

waiting for the all important tap.

Edited November 24, 2017 by oldcar (see edit history)

[mike6024]

 

Other views of the beige one - https://www.rmsothebys.com/hf17/hershey/lots/1919-studebaker-light-six-touring/1706566

 

 

Question: How's the length of that threaded insert? If it's longer than the head is thick it may need to be cut down.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2017 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[oldcar]

How's the length of that threaded insert? If it's longer than the head is thick it may need to be cut down.

 

Hello Mike.

You are quite correct it is longer than necessary and will require  shortening, The attached photograph shows the old failed insert next to the new. Not only is the new one longer but also larger in outside diameter. 24mm against the other's 21mm. Hopefully the extra will make the difference. The only logical alternative at this point is a NEW cylinder head which will add a whole lot more dollars to the cost. I am a big fan of the old policy of one step at a time, no matter how small that step may seem.  Having said all that, I would sooner it be too long rather than too short.

There is something about "as the Actress said to the Bishop" but we do not need to go there.

 

Bj.

 

 

Bj.

 

Edited November 24, 2017 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Oops! we nearly slipped out the bottom!

 

Now that the Australian customs have carefully inspected it and found no possible threat to life or limb, the 24mm Tap has arrived and we can start the next step. The tap will "start" in the existing hole so I probably would be better off NOT drilling the hole out any further. All I need to do is to extract the Champagne cork out of the hole again. I had put it there to keep out any collections of homeless insects that may have liked to call it home. I will wait until I have discussed this with my "Technical Advisor" (son Steve) before rushing into tapping out the hole.

I may need him to "part off" the bottom excess from the "sleeve". Alternatively I can simply cut it off using my angle grinder with a ultra thin 'cut-off blade'.  

For "sticky beaks" trying to read my correspondence, The top document is the Historical Studebaker Register of Australia's list of Members, the second one with the official (Officious) looking heading is about a "speeding fine' telling me that it had just cost me Aust $318.oo for exceeding the 100 kph limit by more that 5 Kph but less than 15Kph. Expletive deleted!. This while driving on an almost deserted country road with virtually no other traffic, except an un-marked Police car travelling, out of sight, in the opposite direction!  Ain't Radar wonderful???

 

My excuse was that modern VW sedans have an electronic speedo and the calibrations narrow (come closer together) at 100kph making it difficlut to read the exact speed. That and that I would sooner be watching the road conditions than having my attention glued to the speedo and as a result, either run off the road or crash into another car!

 

Intending visitors to Australia please note.  It is a well known fact that we "Live in a Granny State*".

 

Bernie j.

 

* Granny State:- In that our governing politicians have the mentality of an; Extremely aged and feeble minded yet still dictatorial, Grand Mother!

 

Edited November 28, 2017 by oldcar (see edit history)