oldcar

Early 1920s Studebaker ?

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3 hours ago, oldcar said:

Thank you nzcarnerd

Sorry, but I have little or no knowledge of my cars origin. I am endeavouring to learn as much as I can about it, but it's history is very vague.

Only a very few people still alive seem to have even known of its existence prior to my purchase just a few weeks back. As a car exported to Australia when new in 1920 it was only driven up to 1942 and covered just 36016 miles in those 22 years. Engine Number shown on the registration disk, 2350 is  correct. 

About 1,600 miles per year#. 

# For comparison, we have just last week driven that far in our 1934 Lagonda Rapier in four days.

See also:-

 

Bj..

Reg Label .jpg

I don't even know how you would be able to tell if it was built in Canada. Because the factory was only just across the river from Detroit I doubt there were many differences. There may have been some Canadian supplied fittings? I don't know. I was told our 1929 Canadian Plymouth has different body screws to the US ones.

 

There seems to be a dearth of good info on the net. EMF started there in 1910 in Walkerville Ontario and Studebaker stopped in Canada in 1939. The plant that was used post war is in Hamilton Ontario and was built during the war for armaments production.

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Thank you

I have sent an enquiry to the Studebaker Museum this afternoon. I will let you know if I get a reply.

 

Bernie j.

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6 hours ago, oldcar said:

Thank you

I have sent an enquiry to the Studebaker Museum this afternoon. I will let you know if I get a reply.

 

Bernie j.

It would be interesting to know whether or not someone connected to the museum monitors this page, and sort of expects enquiries as they arrive.

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At the Studebaker National Museum, Andy Beckman is the archivist.  While he is an dedicated Studebaker guy, I don't think he actively monitors this forum.  However, he usually responds to email requests in a day or so.  His direct email is abeckman (at) studebakermuseum dot org.

 

Here is the page about services from the Archives.  They do have 70 tons of original Studebaker drawings for almost any part you can think of.

https://studebakermuseum.org/archives-and-education/about-the-archives/

 

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Unfortunately you won't find a lot of info prior to the late 20s at the museum but it's worth a try.

 

Pretty sure your car was built out of Walkerville, Ontario. They had chassis shipped from South Bend then final assembled the right hand drive bodies and exported as "British made" to get around tariffs. As best I can tell, all the South Bend cars were black only and the export cars came in a few colors.

Scott

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Hello Garry

I sent an email yesterday and had a reply from Andrew Beckman this morning. I have just sent him a reply with another question regarding numbers of RHDrive Light Sixes in 1920. He was able to tell me that my car would have been built in South Bend.

 

Hi Scott.

Certainly your theory about the savings in Tariffs payable is very valid. As you will see in my next post #152, the Australian market was very influenced by  the need to appear "British Empire Built" in the  period following WW1. 

 

Bj.

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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Thank You Scott

My next question was to be around the origin of the colour "Belgium Blue" . At this time many older people in Australia and New Zealand are reminded of loved ones lost in the battles 100 years ago in Northern France and Belgium. ( ANZACS) I know that there was some involvement of American Soldiers in WW1 too and wonder if the choice of the colour name had some patriotic relevance. My own mother, then a teenager, lost two of her brothers as young soldiers, one in the battles in Flanders.  That war (1914-18) would have been over less than two years by 1920.

 

Bernie j.

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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Well I need to jump in here. As to colors for the light six. The manual clearly shows Light Sixes in Black and Gray from 1920 forward. There is no delineation anywhere that I can find that gray was for export only that is only light sixes hypothesis. The 1920 sales brochure indicates they only came in black but later brochures list other wheel colors and body colors. Your car may have been painted the blue used on the special six as they would have had that in the factory in South Bend.

By 1924 the Light Six was facing stiff competition and they even offered nickel radiators along with all the colors. From what I have been told black is the cheapest color to paint a car as it covers up many imperfections. In the 1920's most cars were repainted black if they got a repaint. These cars were brush painted and the dry time was up to 2 weeks at the factory. The tops were supplied to studebaker by DRYDEK and they came in black or khaki.

1920 EJ Black Gray   EH Blue, Purple Lake      EG Green  page 118 and 119 of parts book

1921 EJ Black Gray EH Blue EG Green  page 118 and 119 of parts book

1922 EJ Black Gray EL Blue Gray EK Blue Gray  p. 115 p.118, p.119 p.120

1923 EM Black Princess Louise Lake  p.118, p.119 p.120

1924 EM Black Brewstr Grn Oxfrd Grn Parisian Red , Blue, Military Gray EL Black Princess Louise Lake Parisian Red EK Black Princess Louise Lake Parisian Red p 118 p. 119 p.120

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Here is the page from the parts book for 1919 to 1922 models. This shows bodies and colors. What is interesting is that they do not

59caede3561df_doors21.thumb.jpeg.77091a61f492c391a6fcb97bbe6b907e.jpegshow any 1920 right hand drive Light Sixes???

 

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Hello Studeboy

Thank you for your input, My car is undoubtedly blue and there is nothing that would suggest that it has ever been anything else. I doubt that in the comparatively short time it was in use prior to WW2 it would have had a bare-metal repaint. Just where the name "Belgium Blue" came from I cannot remember and will have to retrace my steps to discover it's origin. I am told by a Historian Friend who claims to be an expert on paint colours that Belbium Blue is a frequently used colour on British cars. As my car was quite apparently built for the export market perhaps the Blue paint was part of the package. i.e. Right hand drive, wire spoke wheels and magneto ignition. In addition it has, now badly worn Nickel on the radiator surround and windscreen frame and pillars which looks to be original.

Could you please send me an email with the copy of the parts book page as it tends to be a little blurred on my screen.  twooldlags@gmail.com.

I hope to collect the top while I am away next week. I believe that this could very well be the original material. I have one of the rear side screens and it is a black "ripple" rubberised material with a khaki twill on the inside. It is interesting that it has "Lift the Dot fastenings and that those on one half ate fitted "back to front" as they must have been intended to face into the car. I will not know exactly where on the car this section was fitted until I get the rest of the hood and fit it to the car. Apart from the translucent (window) section the fabric is in excellent condition, considering its age.

 

The more I try to sort out my car's history the more it tries to hide from me  and confuse me. 

 

Bernie j.

 

59cafd6d410bd_WimmeraWanderEntries..thumb.jpeg.004b1ff3bd27f0430673765eb3a503ed.jpeg

59cafb6e94f28_WimmeraWanderEntries.1.thumb.jpeg.d9b2e51a6c89ae5591e341919891fdfc.jpeg

 

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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4 hours ago, studeboy said:

Here is the page from the parts book for 1919 to 1922 models. This shows bodies and colors. What is interesting is that they do not

59caede3561df_doors21.thumb.jpeg.77091a61f492c391a6fcb97bbe6b907e.jpegshow any 1920 right hand drive Light Sixes???

 

As mentioned before, I have found a number of errors and inconsistencies in the parts manuals so don't take it all as gospel. Bernie's car just added another. For instance, the first edition of Parts Catalog Book 3 only lists body part number 46010 which is the black version in the later printing.

1506480346694-806999532.thumb.jpg.d29a0fa1a087927fc5865a9ac00ab5d9.jpg

And then again the later book is missing all the Light Six serial number info. And neither shows Light Six exports.

 

Just pointing out it is not an exact science. We just do our best and learn. I'm very interested in Bernie's car as it appears a lot of it is in original condition. 

 

15064805909941925659268.jpg

Edited by Stude Light (see edit history)

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A picture out of this book

15064812259591297931843.thumb.jpg.c49b0dc012f9f05b4a2afdcac834b278.jpg

Showing the RHD EJ which would suggest that the Light Six came in Right Hand Drive bodies in 1920

15064813773521076812725.thumb.jpg.43d4ba0b4e10c16c0a595b87aafa604b.jpg

Edited by Stude Light (see edit history)

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But there are areas of Bernie's car that are inconsistant. The radiator shell...my early and later parts manual (book 3) all list the same part number for the radiator shell which were only painted. They changed to a new part number in 1923 as the design changed to add the beltline but again, painted. In 1924, they added another part number and you could get nickel or painted.

 

The entire windshield support and frame is all nickel plated as is the light bar.  Again, inconsistant with the parts book and all other Light Sixes.

 

So how did these parts get nickel plated? Someone nickel plated it...was it before or after it left the factory. We may never know.

 

The hood has a similar inconsistency as it shares the same part number from 1920-1922 (again in both versions of book 3) but Bernie's is different from all the 1921 and 1922 cars and brochures as it has the extra louvers that came out in 1923.

 

Then you have the rear fender guards and the trim piece that wraps the car. This is the reason I think the body came from another process outside of South Bend. I'll have to call Andrew Beckman and better understand the documentation for the Walkerville plant and the exports. 

 

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IMG_0794c.thumb.jpg.8f0202f49f41faf0eb3850edb81df121.jpg

My curtains had the half turn fasteners inserted back to front also.  It turns out they attached on the inside of the windshield frame with the "outside" material against the frame, but the sides were attached with the "inside" material against the outside of the door.  I'm sure it will be obvious when you get the rest of the parts.  Keep in mind, even if it is in good shape, it could have shrunk and might not reach all the pins.

Edited by trap442w30 (see edit history)

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I am very interested to see the page showing the layout for the "R.H.C. Magneto. I am not sure what the R.H.C. refers to. My car has an American Bosch DU6 (ED18) mag fitted which looks like an original fitment.

Below are a replies received from Andrew Beckman to my requests for information.

For the time being I have resisted the temptaions to pay the $30 per hour especially in the light of his statement that their archives do not hold Vehicle specific data.

I got the impression any further communication would not be really welcome and the suggested $30 per hour fee was intended to put me off making any further enquiry.

Perhaps being an "Old Age Pensioner"on a limited income, makes me reluctant to throw money after lost causes, especially at $30 per hour with no apparent limit on the time required.

Bj.

 

 

On 25 Sep 2017, at 11:12 PM, Andrew Beckman <abeckman@studebakermuseum.org> wrote:

Dear Mr. Jacobson,

I can tell you it was built in South Bend early in the model year - it was the 2,243 Light Six built.

Beyond that, I'm sorry to report that we do not have vehicle-specific data from that era.

Sincerely,

Andrew Beckman
Archivist
Studebaker National Museum 
201 S. Chapin St.
South Bend, IN 46601
(574) 235-9714
studebakermuseum.org

Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence – Vince Lombardi

-----Original Message-----
From: Bernard Jacobson [mailto:wordpress@studebakermuseum.org] 
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 1:57 AM
To: Andrew Beckman <abeckman@studebakermuseum.org>
Subject: Studebaker National Museum Website Inquiry: Research Requests

From: Bernard Jacobson <twooldlags@gmail.com>
Subject: abeckman@studebakermuseum.org

Message Body:
Good Morning
I have only recently purchased a 1920 Studebaker Light Six, Serial Number 1002243 Engine Number 2350 It was delivered new in Melbourne Australia. It has a standard five seat tourer body. Are you able to give me any information as to where it was constructed and date.
It was last used on the road in 1941/2 The speedo reads 36016 miles.

Thank you

B Jacobson
11 Glendor Lane
East Doncaster
Victoria 3109
Australia.

--

 

Good Morning Again Andrew

My next question was to be around the origin of the colour "Belgium Blue" . At this time many older people in Australia and New Zealand are reminded of loved ones lost in the battles 100 years ago in Northern France and Belgium. ( ANZACS) I know that there was some involvement of American Soldiers in WW1 too and wonder if the choice of the colour name had some patriotic relevance. My own mother, then a teenager, lost two of her brothers as young soldiers, one in the battles in Flanders.  That war (1914-18) would have been over less than two years by 1920.

Would your archives extend to such things as paint  formulation? My Light Six  still has its original (Belgium) Blue paint with Black on the  wheels and fenders, but after 97 years it does need some small repairs. 

Despite being an Australian living in Australia, I maintain a “Thread” in the Studebaker section of the AACA (Internet) Forum and the question has been asked if the Museum monitors this much used "site” . http://forums.aaca.org/forum/21-studebaker-erskine-rockne/

Thank you

Bernie Jacobson

 

 

Dear Mr. Jacobsen,
 
I’m sorry to report that we do not have color formulations.   We may have some data on LHD/RHD production – research fees are $30/hour, please let us know how you wish to proceed. 
 
We are familiar with the AACA forum, and do visit from time to time. 
 
Thank you!
 
Andrew Beckman
Archivist
Studebaker National Museum
201 S. Chapin St.
South Bend, IN 46601
(574) 235-9714
studebakermuseum.org
 

 

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RHC = Right Hand Control = Right Hand Drive.

 

Studebaker used the terms RHC v LHC for some time. The Hawk and Lark books I have still used those terms.

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DSCN5589.thumb.jpg.be5654744d827175b487f991bb04930f.jpg.43db2268a1b491e17923a64faa149273.jpgDSCN5588.thumb.jpg.3ff6c0b58f0504c5231b55cab2abda27.jpg.1a120e10d9707acd2aaeb0b2457ff539.jpgThank you OnSafari I should have picked that up.

 

 I must be growing old/dim! I am trying to relate the Serial Numbers given in those charts for Export Series 19 Light Six  233501-----257464.# To the best of my ability the serial number on my car is 22?3? putting my serial number before the earliest number shown in the chart.   If you go back to #57 you can see photographs of the plate on the side of the chassis. I do not know if I have any better chance of reading it if I remove it from the chassis. Perhaps it is not important but I would like to know how it fits in with the scheme of things.

Bernie j.

 

#Since Helen has come home, I could zoom in to the required numbers on her iPad and read them easily but this still does not answer my question.

Perhaps we will never know. While we are away next week I will have the opportunity to look at one or two other Light Sixes which may help. I just wish the the man stamping the Serial number on the chassis plate on my car had been a little more heavy handed.

 

Bj.

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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The 1919 Light Six EH is a totally different car than your 1920 Light Six EJ.  Only the name is similar...sorry for the confusion in the parts manual.  The new 1920 design launched as an EJ model (1920-1922) and was changed to the EM model (1923-1924) probably due to the all steel body design for the touring car, the front door changes, added beltline, etc, They started with an all new serial number naming convention with the EJ model starting with 1,000,001.  Yours is 1,002,243 making it the two-thousand two-hundred and forty-third car produced.  Your engine number is EJ2350, making it the two-thousand two hundred fiftieth engine made.  As mentioned before, the engine s/n didn't exactly match the chassis serial numbers as they had to make extra engines for replacements.  Probably only the first few cars had matching numbers.  I can't find any information showing which serial numbers were exported vs domestic.

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Thank you Stude Light

I appreciate your and all the other's input, as a newcomer to Studebakers I have a great deal to learn. While I have been involved with Vintage Cars for most of my life, every one is different and the Studebaker is no exception. While not attempting a huge body off/bare chassis/ground up  restoration such as I have done in the past, preserving the original is no lesser task and hopefully no less enjoyable!

Right now I am very much tip-toeing around the edges. I feel that it is miraculous that my car has survived so intact after so many years of neglect. Much of my time right now is taken up with my attempts to uncover its history before it is completely lost.  As it is so much is hidden in the mists of time.

 

Bernie j.

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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Bernie,

I talked to Andy Beckman today to get a feel for how much information may be in the archives from the early 20s. As expected, there isn't a whole lot. They have the original sales brochures, parts manuals, maintenance manuals along with some odds and ends like starting and ending serial number by model year but he doubts anything like the detailed serial number data you might find for a Lark or a Hawk (later years have lots of detailed records). To understand what came out of Walkerville, they have an insurance map of the plant that has some details of what operations were done in various parts of the plant. Where some details may be found would be in something like meeting minutes. From this you may pull a few bits and pieces and put parts of the puzzle together. This is what requires lots of time to look through some of the old documentation and find a few nuggets. I decided I will spend a day at the museum archives and see what I can find in that era....probably late November.

 

Andy's reply on where your car was built came from the fact that all Light Six chassis were made in South Bend. Final assembly for domestics also came out of South Bend but most exports came out of Walkerville after the chassis were shipped there from South Bend.

 

Looking forward to seeing what I can find but expectations are not real high. Regardless, I love history and reading old documents so it will be fun.

Scott

 

 

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2 hours ago, Stude Light said:

Regardless, I love history and reading old documents so it will be fun.

Scott

 

 

 

Hello Again Scott

That makes two of us!

Please pass on to Andrew Beckman  my thanks and appreciation for all he has done. It is difficult being on the other side of the world and relying on emails to communicate. Once I start on a car I become totally immersed. As I am sure I have commented in the past, I have been spoilt by the Lagonda Rapier clan, but I have been involved with them for a very long time and have meet  quite a few of them during our visits to England.

Sadly we have only had the one visit to America and much of that was taken up with the Dixie Flyer and the AACA Anniversary at Louisville 2010 which tended to be just a tad overwhelming.  Who knows we may live long enough to make another visit to the USA but certainly we have nothing planed right now.

 

Bernie j.

 

 

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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Hello Again

We are back from a very pleasant visit to Northern Victoria and southern New South Wales including Australia's Capital city Canberra. One find during our travells was this Roller-Smith Ammeter made inBethlehem P.A.

It is a brand that I have never encountered and is not from a Studebaker Light Six as far as my limited knowledge goes. It would appear to be early 1920s and apart from some obvious chipping to the paint appears to be in excellent condition. Perhaps someone can tell me which Automobile makers used this brand and in what years. 

 

Bernie j

 

59d7533651b20_Roller-SmithAmpmeter.thumb.jpeg.616303f76882ff7ca37a66e81d80abbb.jpeg

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)

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From Feb 1, 1919 Automotive Trade Journal

59d76a948e885_RollerSmith.thumb.JPG.01acc75159e1df4c11d59a4a12563b41.JPG

 

The Light Six used Nagel gauges

59d76b45c9665_NagelAmmeter.JPG.39150a3d9c24ec0fd4814cde0530f652.JPG

 

Interesting that more modern gauges have charge to the right and discharge to the left.  I always have to look twice when driving my car.

Scott

 

 

Edited by Stude Light (see edit history)

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Thank you Scott

The next little gem discovered in the box of rear view mirrors was this one which will mount onto tne windscreen pillar to balance with the spotlight, complete which with its original convex mirror, which will move to the passenger (left) side of the car. This one has now been given a quick clean before preparing it for painting. The beveled edge glass while slightly tarnished is more than serviceable.

This morning I also discovered another two black leather Lounge Chairs put out for collection to go to 'land fill'. While the cushions were in ruins the leather covering the out side of the arms and backs is in fine condition and will give me sufficient to line the inside of the four door pockets. Making my decision to alway carry a sharp trimming knife in the glove box of my Peugeot a wise one.

While on the subject of interior trim perhaps you can tell me what is the correct covering for the floor in the rear compartment. Currently the foot rest has the remains of a dark red-blue and black "Turkish" design carpet. While probably not original it is a nice idea if I can find a suitable piece of usable second hand carpet. Or would the 'purists' hate me?

 

Bernie j.

DSCN5639.thumb.jpg.6356d11b6fe2e97c0f3ab889874ea9ed.jpgDSCN5640.thumb.jpg.96c9e8cd64cb2abc2b384dbf6067140c.jpg.

 

Bernie  j.

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)
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