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Early 1920s Studebaker ?


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4 hours ago, oldcar said:

Please pardon my confusion does your Light Six have an aluminium or a cast iron head?

As a supplementary question was the windscreen mounted "Spot-light" a standard fitting or a popular option.

Mine was one of the last few built in the middle of 1923 with the Aluminum Head

Capture.JPG.658d53f2947d0e1552d7d059b36e65b9.JPG

 

The spot light was not standard but a popular aftermarket option.  On the Special Six pictured, it was probably added for safety since that car was starting a 4 month, 35,000 mile durability test.

 

4 hours ago, automaschinewerks said:

I think I read somewhere that in aircraft or aerospace that all threads in aluminum are helicoiled when the planes are manufactured, right from new, for durability and strength reasons.

Yes, that is true.  The aircraft piston engine manufacturers, like Lycoming and Continental, use horizontally opposed air-cooled engines that use independent cylinders (jugs). 

Image result for lycoming cylinders

 

The cylinder is steel and that has an integral aluminum head pressed on to it.  The spark plug threads, in the aluminum head, are then fitted with a steel inserts (i.e. helicoil) that is typically staked in place - two per cylinder. This provides the durability needed for frequent plug removal and inspections. On my Studebaker, I am very careful to ensure the plugs are started and threaded most of the way by hand and only tighten them "just enough" to avoid stripping the aluminum threads out.

 

 

 

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Thank you Scott,

All may not be lost yet, if ,as it appears, my car used 18mm plugs last time it was driven they would have been "hanging on by a whisker" I may be able to recover the thread in the one damaged cylinder by using a 7/8 helicoil. At least it is worth a try before doing anything drastic.

It is probably worth doing all six as you suggest.

 

Bernie j.

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Hello Again

Having looked closely and measured the spark-plug holes with my antique 'Optical' Calipers, it would appear that at some time in the past, all six of the spark-plug holes have had inserts  put into them to reduce the size of the hole to 18mm. Unfortunately with the one hole the insert has stuck to the Spark-plug thread and has pulled out.

Quite possibly all the holes were reduced due to the un-availability and or cost of 7/8 plugs. This being more so as the car had been located in what would have been, still is, a small country village away from a  readily available source of 7/8 plugs. Even today without the convenience of the inter-net 7/8 plugs and even today their price is 2 or 3 times that of 18mm plugs. My task now is to source/make an oversize insert.

 

Bernie j.59ffb72ac6858_SparkPlug.thumb.jpeg.fa0df80b3724f154f1804c79670cfe25.jpeg

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)
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Hello Again

Having spent several hours looking and pondering, the more I think about it, the more I am of the opinion that there was nothing wrong with the original 7/8 -18 threads in my Light Six's spark-plug holes but it was simply an economy driven move to install the conversion sleeves to reduce the holes to suit the then readily available 18mm spark-plugs. Measuring the o/d of the one adaptor I have out it is 21mm slightly UNDER 7/8"  I am now wondering IF I am able to withdraw the other five inserts, I could clean up the threads in the six holes and go back to using the original 7/8 spark-plugs.

 

Today I have searched the internet looking for a 7/8 -18  thread chaser/tap to clean up the threads in the six spark plug holes. Does anyone know of the existence/availability of such a thing?

I did find one site offering a conversion adaptor, 7/8" flat seat to 14mm taper seat. Has anyone had experience with these?

 

Bernie j.

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I seem to be spending a lot of time apologising lately. Having realised/remembered that I have had a 7/8 Spark plug hanging on my "kennel" wall for years & years, I took it down and after taking it off its little display board treid it in the offending hole.

Sadly it simply fell into the hole with room to spare. Now I either have to buy some new callipers or grind the "shoulder" off my old pair so I can measure the hole accurately. Then at least I will know what I need to do next.

I really am sorry for taking up your valuable time.

 

Bj.DSCN5693.thumb.jpg.389420a1cc1f7d0911efb29151c7ec23.jpg

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I found several 7/8-18 spark plug taps on Amazon and other places for about US $25. 

See https://www.amazon.com/HSS-Right-Hand-Thread-Tap/dp/B008B25CJS

 

Mailing it to you via U.S. Postal Service "First Class Package International Service" is $13.75 for the indicated weight of 4 ounces (113 grams), about $23 for 425 grams.  Estimated delivery time is 7-21 days (not guaranteed).  This seems to be the cheapest way to ship things weighing less than 4 lbs ( 1.8 kg) from the U.S. to anywhere overseas.  For items less than 1 lb and under $400, no customs forms required.

 

If you can't find one in Australia, I can buy it here and mail it to you, send you a PayPal invoice via email.

 

But, here's a tap on Amazon that will ship directly to you for $5.38, total price US $26.96:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01519JE1K/ 

I don't know how Amazon gets to ship stuff so cheaply!

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Hello Garry

Thank you for the kind offer, I can actually buy 7/8"-18 spark-plugs here from a local Company "Auto Surplus" that carry a huge stock of obsolete parts. 

I still have to solve the problem of the one plug hole that has been drilled and taped over size.  apart from this one that is way oversize all the other five have been sleeved back to take 18mm plugs. My present thinking is to leave them well alone and have a new oversize sleeve made to fit this one. This means that I can still use the six new 18mm plugs that I already have on the shelf.

 

Bj/

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Bernie,

Have you considered a 7/8-18 helicoil? Your other option is just to machine up an adapter the would thread into a larger  hole (maybe M24 - 3?) with an 18mm diameter threaded hole in the center. That would keep all your plugs the same.

 

That photo of your plug you posted looked like it had pulled out all the aluminum so I figured you would have an issue. Did you ever get the head off the block?

 

I was reading the report for the 25,000 mile durability test run on the Light Six and they noted that they stripped out a spark plug and questioned the durability of the aluminum head design. I am real cautious when torquing mine...just enough to seal. The aluminum head design was not very good. It was too thin and lacked cooling over the combustion chambers. It also did not provide an even air fuel ratio in all cylinders since the intake runners were integral and not balanced. This was confirmed in some engine dyno testing performed. Studebaker recognized this and changed to cast iron in mid 1923.

Scott

Edited by Stude Light (see edit history)
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Hello Scott

At the risk of being labelled paranoid, I have thought of little else than what needs to be done. I  do not have either the ability or the machinery to do it myself. I have one son who does BUT he also has a young family and a difficult business to look after. SO I am reluctant to pile too much on his shoulders. This is after all supposed to be a hobby. All too often I am guilty of letting my interest in old motor cars control my life.

My immediate plan is to have just the one "threaded sleeve" , for the want of a better term, made. Having read and looked at quite a bit of information about that absolutely unique breed of Studebaker, the 1920 RHD Light Six (with Magneto Ignition).

 One of my major concerns is the durability of the original cylinder head, as a result I am very reluctant to remove it from the motor. It is my gut feeling that if I remove it that it may never go back! This in turn inhibits the ease in making and fitting a repair to the one damaged spark-plug hole as this must be done with the head in place. 

One thing in my "to-do" basket, is to discover exactly how many other people who make up that tiny segment of people around the world actually have a totally original RHD Studebaker Light Six with an Aluminium cylinder head, magneto ignition and 18mm Spark-plugs.  How many of those cars are still running.????

 

Bernie j

<twooldlags@gmail.com>

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)
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Bernie,

Yours may be the only one, especially WHEN you get it running. I'm sure you can repair it in place. It's just aluminum so should not cause an issue if a few chips were left in the cylinder after machining.

 

Good find by Studeboy on the different plugs offered. Now we know how they provided both designs, they used threaded inserts. Your problem is to make a slightly larger OD on the insert. My guess is the inserts have a 7/8-18 external thread. Maybe you can measure that. It may still be possible to use a helicoil kit to match the insert threads then clean all the aluminum off the threads of the insert you have. If you can't reuse that insert then I think you'll have to work with a machine shop to get one made and you can pick your insert thread OD then drill and tap the spark plug hole to accept it. 

 

The parts book does call out two cylinder head p/ns . What's odd is the earlier book differentiates the heads by RHD vs LHD and the later book uses SAE vs Metric. Maybe RHD cars went to regions that used primarily metric plugs? Maybe magneto systems were primarily an export car system and went to regions that used metric plugs?

 

Also the part numbers in the early book don't match the part numbers in the later book for the 1920 car. They probably made some type of improvement in the later years and changed part numbers.

 

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Don't stress about it, there is a solution out there.

Scott 

Edited by Stude Light (see edit history)
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The 1923-1925 book also shows an SAE and metric head part number when they switched to cast iron. The metric was for " Export Only". Wonder what other Light Sixes in Australia have for plugs? Maybe AussieStude can chime in. His is cast iron. Cast iron head takes a different block though so that won't help.

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Yours may be the only one, especially WHEN you get it running.

 

There is one other 1920 Light Six  one 1921 and three 1922 listed in the Historical Studebaker Register of Australia although it is impossible to tell if they are running or if they still have an Aluminium cylinder head and if they have coil or magneto ignition. Unfortunately they are spread around the country and not all owners list an email address. I have sent the question to the Newsletter editor but even then not everyone either reads all the news letters oor bother to reply. Even contacting some by "post" does not guarantee a reply.  I must confess that I am still new enough to Studebakers not to fully understand the Model year/Designation  i.e. EJ EM etc. 

Looking through the VSCC UK list of members (over 7,000) does not really help either as identifying Studebakers in England etc as where a member has multiple cars only one is listed. I will contact my friend Michael Worthington Williams who writes the "Finds & Discoveries" in the UK based Automobile Magazine as it has wide readership not only in England.

I am a little like my favourite breed of dog, Airedale Terriers. Once I get hold of something, I will not let it go.

 

Bernie j.

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EJ is 1920-1922, EM is 1923-1924.  They switched from EJ to EM for body style changes.  The biggest one you will notice is the EM has all front hinged doors.  It gets a little confusing on the aluminum head.  They changed from aluminum to cast iron in the middle of 1923, so some 1923 EMs have aluminum and some 1923 EMs have cast iron.  All 1920-1922 have aluminum and all 1924 have cast iron.  Hope that helps.

Scott

 

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Thank you Scott

It all sounds straight forward when you put it down in writing.Earlier today I had a phone call from Ray Reichelt who lives in Nhill which is a country town in Western Victoria. He has a 1922 EJ Light Six with a two seater Roadster body. Ray tells me that it is in running order and has won awards at two or three Concours. It still has an aluminium head and magneto so it may be an 18mm car. BUT It has a replacement that Ray sourced in America. Ray shows an email address on his entry in the Historical Register members list but says that he does not use it since his wife died two or three years back. His car has a one piece windscreen with side lights. I will try sending him an email on the off chance he will reply.

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On 10/24/2017 at 7:21 AM, Stude Light said:

 

Wait, wait, yes I am a purist at heart but not a snob. Besides, who am I to talk about dashboards?  Mine is an oak veneer, not even close to original.

 

Dash.thumb.JPG.5abffed2a7494b4aec896b377694b4d0.JPG

 

Alright, you got me.  I have another dash and am planning to restore it correctly to the original painted walnut design.  These are the best photos of an original dash I have:

 

DSC04642.thumb.JPG.0cbb1ecb5cb3d2c7055686f96ab0c88d.JPG59ef1fe935c06_Early1920LightSixDashfromRogerHadfield.thumb.jpg.468ac64232552dd36fcf4e8c9e2d0644.jpg

 

Bernie,

A real piece of walnut will look really nice.  Just be very accurate on your gauge hole size, particularly on the speedometer as the gauge is attached from the back and a clearance fit to the dash board hole.

 

Mark,

That seat you are sitting on just doesn't look comfortable, especially in short pants!

 

Scott

 

I was getting ready to work on my dash and was doing a little research. My 1920 Sales Brochure calls out a mahogany finished instrument board. My 1922 and 1924 Sales Brochures call out a walnut finished instrument board. So looks like they made a change sometime in 1921 or 22.

 

Bernie,

To be more sccurate you should be looking for mahogany. 

 

Scott

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Guest trap442w30

When I was working on a  1961 boat I had, I was able to get very large pieces of mahogany from a local pattern shop for a foundry.  They like to use mahogany because it is dimensionally stable.  As I recall, I was able to get a piece of Mahogany that was 2-1/4" x 9-1/2" x 100" that I needed to go across the bottom of the windshield.  I never would have thought about checking a pattern shop before that.

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I have some time up my sleeve so I thought that I would check out some "antique-junk furniture" shops to see if I could find an extension "leaf" from an expanding dining table or a Timber Bed-head from an old 4'6" double bed. Mahogany was a favourite furniture timber and it should be well "seasoned". 

When I removed the speedo from my dash the nickel plated rim came out towards the fromt and the main body of the speedo out the back. 

The rim complete with glass is simply a press fit onto the front of the speedo. The hole for the trip reading reset button is the only tricky bit

 

Bj.Speedo.thumb.jpeg.b877816c8413f4bd17be581f5d5ec234.jpeg

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Yep, not much holding that face on.  I had to disassemble and clean my speedo to get it working.  In doing so I had to guess at the spring tension on the dial.  It now reads in kilometers per hour!. I'm going to pull it apart again and recalibrate it.  I'll use my lathe as an input then just adjust using the ratio between kph and mph since I have that data point.

Scott

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Hi Scott

i am sure you are right. I think that all I am capable of doing is cleaning the glass and dial and puting it back together more or less how it came apart. I really do doubt  that it matters very much, the next generation of owners will not have a clue about any of this and it will just be another car to add to their "Collection" another box to tick. It is doubtful that after I have managed to get the motor running that anyone will even care!

Sorry about that Scott but at some time we all must face up to the truth.

 

Bj

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I suggest you keep a little journal of all you learn about the car and pass it on to the next owner. That way all you learn isn't lost. You might be surprised at how many old car buffs want all that information with the car, especially for something as "uncollectable" as a Light Six.

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For reference...I checked with Mark (Aussie Stude) on spark plug sizes. His 1923 Light Six with the cast iron head has 7/8-18 plugs as do two aluminum head motors he knows of, at least one of which had the magneto system. So there apparently was no "standard". All we know is yours was fitted up with inserts at some point (probably from the factory) and you need to fix one insert. Looks like you have a few good options that Mike6024 provided. 

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Guest trap442w30

I know its a little off topic, but all the learning does make the car more interesting to future owners, even if it does not seem very important.  I recently got in touch with the son of the guy who owned my car from the 1950's and 1960's.  I learned that the son was the one who disconnected the vacuum fuel pump in the early 1970's for an electric fuel pump so he and his mom could make the last trip from Tucson to the Grand Canyon and back to honor his dad who started the tour in the early 1950's.  (Thanks again Scott for walking me through getting the vacuum pump hooked back up and functioning.)  The son was also the one who put two spare valves in the toolbox from an old machine shop that was closing down.  I had used one of those valves when I had to break a seized one into three pieces when I got the car last year.  He also said he would try to gather up some pictures and info on the car and mail it to me.

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Rather than duplicate all my thoughts I consciously use "My" threads on this forum as a "Restoration Diary" which probably accounts for the number of my almost daily "posts". If you take the trouble to look back at some of my (old car's) "Threads" starting with the Dixie Flyer, the Packard Single Six and the Lagonda Rapier will give you something of an insight to how I work.

Regarding the Spark-plug "inserts" I have already sent an email to Jergensinc asking re; the cost of post to Australia. You will be first to know when something is happening.

 

Bj

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I am sorry but I have the cylinder head  and all the relevant bits right in front of me. The actual size of the "hole" in number one cylinder is 22. mm to the inside. The existing threaded sleeve which "falls" through the hole is 7/8" O/D. Sadly my 20 year old Nikon camera has just exhausted it's battery so now I am trying to see if I can get a useable image by scaning. From these images you can see that this existing "sleeve is already 22mm (7/8")

I do not apologise but you must make some allowances for me!

I have no formal training in Mechanical Engineering and no highly sophisticated didigital measuring devices. I am now, as I have said several times already, 81 years old, I live on a "State"  "old-age" pension, so I have a very limited income! My cars are very much my life and it is a constant source of frustration that I cannot just simply hand them over to a professional "Restoration" workshop alongwith a "blank" cheque.

As I am sure that many of the people reading this with a smirk across their face, do.

I am sure that there any number of people reading this who would also tell you that I do not "deserve" to have a car like either my Lagonda or the Studebaker. That I have owned the Lagonda since 1978 has little or no relevance to them! That I have actually driven it over 100,000 miles is of no interest and of little concern to them.

If it had not been for the intervention of an extremely talented surgeon I would have been dead twelve years ago.

Did I hear someone say "More is the pity".

Unfortunately (for you) I do not intend dying just yet or for another year or two at least. I will  muddle along working essentially by my-self in my grossly inadequate garage/work shop. If you are over 6'0" tall you would have trouble moving about in it. as a result I do much of my work outside in the open air.

 

Probably I should make this my last post as I have no hope of living up to your expectations.  

The only thing I can add is that there is no compulsion to look at any of the threads that I have started.

 

Perhaps "someone" would like to make an offer to take the Studebaker away and give it the total, ground -up, last nut and bolt, restoration that it deserves. They could easily overcome the problen of the thread in the spark plug hole.

Just fit a later motor. Perhaps a Chev or Ford would do as well.

Anyone interested in taking over the Studebaker? Something around US$15-20,000 would secure it. I will even help arrange (but not pay for) shipping anywhere around the world.

 

Better still. As I am so ignorant and so stupid, why not just make me an offer I cannot refuse. 

 

Bernard Jacobson

(Australia.)

 

 

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Edited by oldcar (see edit history)
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Hi Bernie,

I don't know about anyone else, but I come here to read your adventures and see the progress you make.  You give me inspiration.  Like you, I am not a mechanical engineer and I make do with what I have and can fashion.  You do have a couple of years on me, as I am not quite yet 60 (59.5) but I was likewise blessed by a very good oncologist.  So, we keep doing what we can to the best of our abilities and take our victories where we can.  I recently rebuilt the rear springs on the 55 TBird I have.

DSCN1310.thumb.JPG.227602982da24d6dac504f49631cff66.JPG 

DSCN1329.thumb.JPG.9e1e51c5450f120a0a4cb1f6e3fd0d23.JPG

It took me a week, but I got it done and I think they look ok.   It was a result of reading the posts on here like yours that got that accomplished.  So, thank you!  Keep plugging at it.  I look forward to your next post!!

 

Frank

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Bernie

This thread is the first one I read when I log in.

I always enjoy the back and forth on this thread and I am learning a lot.

Do not give upon your car.

You will regret it later.

I am 81 also and can not imagine giving up my hoard of Studebaker parts.

I specialize in prewar parts and I get a kick out of researching the parts I have.

I am trying to inventory everything.

Hang in there!!!

Robert Kapteyn

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Bernie, you know that I very much enjoy your posts of both the Studebaker and the Lagonda. Please don't let a few folks trouble you - there are many more enjoying your posts and learning from them then you probably realize.

 

I for one am inspired by how you take these cars and make them drivable again, and especially the basic but tried-and-true  methods you use. 

 

Keep posting, please. 

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My ever helpful and caring son; Steve has called in this morning and he tells me, and I have no reason to doubt him, that the actual ID of the hole is 22.5mm. He also advises that there is still some remnant thread in the hole. 

To my simple thinking the most likely solution is Jergensinc's 24mm OD x 18mm ID screw in "sleeve".

I am just glad I was not a Studebaker Service Manager in an Australian Dealership in 1920. It would been enough to make even strong young men depressed!  Some Australian Vintage Car enthusiasts tend to put the blame for everything onto British manufacturers, especially people like the long suffering Joseph Lucas. What they do not take into account is the relatively small production numbers for most of the British companies building "interesting cars". That and their own "if it aint broke don't fix it" attitude when it comes to even basic maintenance or servicing things like starter motors and generators. That cars such as my Lagonda Rapier with a total production of under 400 units over four years, have survived so well speaks volumes for the original build quality. By contrast the Studebakers survival rate must say something ? Why the Studebaker sales and "Marketing" staff felt it was necessary to make minute adjustments to suit niche markets is beyond belief.  Does anyone know the actual numbers for Australian sales through the early 1920s. That and how many Light Six cars were sold fitted with 18mm spark plugs? It is my understanding that Canada Cycle were also responsible for Studebaker sales in Melbourne during the 1920s.

 

 

Bj

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)
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Please do not think I am ignoring all your messages of support. I cannot explain why I have some very black days, They just sneak up on me and Ker-pow-ie!  Stand well back. 

Rest assured work is continuing on the Studebaker. I am about to turn it around (with my trusty trolley jack) which will be good fun as I virtually have to turn it through 360 degrees in its own length. I have cut out all the side trim panels and only have the two foot well "kick boards" to cut out. I have to go out tomorrow to buy some black velour to line the door pockets and the "glove box"* that is to go into the passenger side of the dash-board. 
*I know that this will be "non-original" but it is a convenience that I have grown used to. Having one in all "my cars".

Door pockets are OK but they have their limitations. The Studebaker will still have a pocket in each door too, as original but I find with the "Flap" over the door pockets, you virtually have to come to a stop and open the door to get access to the front door pocket(s).

 

Without a "glove box" where would I put my little tin of peppermints? All weight-watchers please note these are Sugarfree.

The tin holds .34g or 17 serves of .2g each. Please do not ask me to count them. Once you tip them out to count them, you can never put them all back into the tin.

I still have to work out a use for the empty tins. They cost Aust $2. per tin when on "special' at the supermarket, perhaps I should save all my loose $2 coins in them.  Now I wonder how many $2 coins I could fit in a tin?

Mints.thumb.jpeg.64c144049ed450c2157b48a74fc93bdf.jpeg

Edited by oldcar (see edit history)
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The Jergens insert might work. I've been told to not recommend anything not specifically made for spark plugs so don't want to get in trouble. I think you should get one, look it over, see how the spark plug screws into it and how it seats then decide if you'll go ahead with installing.

 

You would then need a tap and drill. I think it was 24mm-1.5mm pitch and 57/64 inch drill

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/S-1pcs-24mm-x-1-5-Metric-HSS-Right-hand-Thread-Tap-M24-x1-5-mm-High-quality/301897593281?

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/57-64-size-HSS-Morse-MTS-MT-2-Drill-Drillbit-Dormer-A130/322185718996?

 

Or you can have a custom insert made at a machine shop like you said in the very beginning. It should not be too difficult. Inside M18-1.5 and outside threads greater than 22mm with maybe a lip so it can be screwed down and tightened.

 

Are the spark plugs you will use "washer-seat" as opposed to "taper-seat"?

 

There are no off the shelf spark-plug specific inserts available to fit the large hole you have unless you are willing to go back to the larger 7/8-18 size spark plugs.

 

 

 

 

 

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Hello  Mike

I too would hate to see you "in trouble". I don't know where that came from.

I am waiting for a reply from Jergen's. Personally I think that their's is the best option. I am sure "Steve" could easily make something similar but I do not like pulling him off whatever he is doing he is currently; building a second Pizza (oven) trailer and rebuilding his second VW (2-3 tonne) van, which is all about making his & his family's livelihood. There is no great rush to have the Studebaker's engine running. I am not planing to drive it anywhere soon.  The 18mm plugs are a standard "washer seat" Champion D16. I have a million other things to be doing on it.

 

Bj.

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This morning's task, although it may appear a little premature, has been to strip the original black linoleum from the left hand side running board. This can shortly be (will be) replaced by new black linoleum but this morning's work was mainly to look at the original "boards". These are again more evidence of the cars reclusive life over the past seventy six years. Having removed all the little tacks that had been put in at some time to secure the lino', I could inspect the entire surface of the step. This I should point out is a soft wood, probably one of the many species of pine. Having spent perhaps 15 or 20 minutes first with  my angle grinder and then with an orbital sander, I am amazed. There will certainly not be any need to repair or replace any of it.   As could be expected the adhesive used to secure the linoleum in 1920 has largely dried out and lost all its adhesion qualities but the timber itself is absolutely sound and will not require any repair or replacement. At least to me, a sure indication of the dormant nature of the cars sheltered existence from 1941 to today.

This afternoon I can turn the car around and start work on the right hand side.

 

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Edited by oldcar (see edit history)
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I could say "No sooner said than done". Certainly my new trolley jack does make things a little easier . And not knowing the dead weight of the Studebaker must contribute something. Either way I can say "Jobs done! and I can start working on the right hand side of the car. Not having Helen's VW parked in its usual spot on the right hand side of the carport certainly made my task a little easier. Looking at the timber in this side running board it is apparent that I may have to do a tiny piece of repair to the extreme end of the running board where it attaches to the bottom edge of the rear mudguard. (fender). I will not know to what extent this repair is required until I get all the old Linoleum adhesive sanded off. One thing that is clear is that the right hand side of the car  did not suffer the same amount of "knocks and abrasions" as the left had.

 

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Edited by oldcar (see edit history)
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