RivNut Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Turbinator said: Ed, is it work if you keep coming up short on desired result? Ha! Please trust me I'll be experienced on this AC stuff before it is over! Turbinator I think that, based on your experiences, that I'll save a couple of pennies and just go with a modern conversion. Cheaper in the short and long runs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minimarvel Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 Thank you again Gentlemen... It's getting clearer.... Just confused why they sell an expensive 2 port unit to replace the original that actually does nothing that a single port unit does..... And sell it as a replacement with no explanation of how it works and more importantly... How it doesn't and can't work. Thanks again Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 Because they can. They sell compatible rather than functional replacements. Most folks don't know how their AC system works, so they don't know that the STV replacement completely changes the way temperature is modulated; they don't know that they had a two-stage diaphragm. All they know is that they get cold air and the defroster works, so it must be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted April 13, 2020 Author Share Posted April 13, 2020 Vintage Air in Florida advertises they rebuild STV’s. I’m going to try one last time now that I know how to flush ALL the right components and what not to flush. Putting on O rings with PAG oil is another thing I learned. Keep it clean. Evacuate the system to hopefully 28” of mercury. If the vacuum holds a couple of days there are probably no leaks. Take it step farther and I use dry nitrogen to check for leaks if the vacuum doesn’t hold. Different tools simple and sophisticated are available to find leaks.Charging the system with R12 from a large 30lb pound container will be a new adventure. I’ve got a digital scale, so should be a piece of cake. But then, I might get someone to charge the system that has a lot of experience. A man has to know his limits at certain times.Turbinator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minimarvel Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 And that is sad.... In the name of profit... A good restorer I know, only restores aircraft now because he says the quality and integrity of restoration parts for automotive is such rubbish. We keep saying China makes rubbish... But many of these parts are "proudly made in the USA"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minimarvel Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 21 minutes ago, Turbinator said: Vintage Air in Florida advertises they rebuild STV’s. I’m going to try one last time now that I know how to flush ALL the right components and what not to flush. Putting on O rings with PAG oil is another thing I learned. Keep it clean. Evacuate the system to hopefully 28” of mercury. If the vacuum holds a couple of days there are probably no leaks. Take it step farther and I use dry nitrogen to check for leaks if the vacuum doesn’t hold. Different tools simple and sophisticated are available to find leaks.Charging the system with R12 from a large 30lb pound container will be a new adventure. I’ve got a digital scale, so should be a piece of cake. But then, I might get someone to charge the system that has a lot of experience. A man has to know his limits at certain times.Turbinator I modified the Stv to a, switch. It seems to work fine and certainly enough for a weekend car.... Many old Rolls Royce had exactly the same STV system and I have not seen one that wasn't converted for decades. Sometimes originality has it's limits. Ergonomics before aesthetics... No point having a, system that works well for a, short time. My AirCon guy.... Who really is the best in the business... Says the electronic way is more reliable... The number 1 mod that needs doing is putting a pressure switch in the circuit to ensure the clutch never comes in if the system runs out of coolant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Minimarvel said: The number 1 mod that needs doing is putting a pressure switch in the circuit to ensure the clutch never comes in if the system runs out of coolant. How do you charge it if the clutch won't engage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minimarvel Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 Vacuum..... And then the system will take over.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) 37 minutes ago, Minimarvel said: Vacuum..... And then the system will take over.... Vacuum helps pull some initial charge into the system but it is necessary to put a jumper across the low pressure switch, cycling switch, etc... to reach the low pressure threshhold...unless using a charging station with a heated blanket to raise pressure in the charging tank or if one cares to spend all morning charging the system. Tom Edited April 13, 2020 by 1965rivgs (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ62 Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 1 hour ago, 1965rivgs said: Vacuum helps pull some initial charge into the system but it is necessary to put a jumper across the low pressure switch, cycling switch, etc... to reach the low pressure threshhold...unless using a charging station with a heated blanket to raise pressure in the charging tank or if one cares to spend all morning charging the system. Tom Tom, I messaged you a couple of days ago about a part that I need. Please respond. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minimarvel Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 9 hours ago, 1965rivgs said: Vacuum helps pull some initial charge into the system but it is necessary to put a jumper across the low pressure switch, cycling switch, etc... to reach the low pressure threshhold...unless using a charging station with a heated blanket to raise pressure in the charging tank or if one cares to spend all morning charging the system. Tom Quite correct Tom, but just did mine from empty. Ambient temp was 6 deg C. Vac the system for 30 minutes and it took enough charge to trigger low pressure switch. Took about 30 minutes to fill to optimum... No bubbles in site glass either... So wasn't necessary to bypass switch or heat bottle (blowtorch comes in handy sometimes because we always forget the blanket... Tested system with nitrogen first to 150psi. All looks good... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 5 hours ago, Minimarvel said: Quite correct Tom, but just did mine from empty. Ambient temp was 6 deg C. Vac the system for 30 minutes and it took enough charge to trigger low pressure switch. Took about 30 minutes to fill to optimum... No bubbles in site glass either... So wasn't necessary to bypass switch or heat bottle (blowtorch comes in handy sometimes because we always forget the blanket... Tested system with nitrogen first to 150psi. All looks good... Really depends on type of system and switching method...with a binary low pressure/cycling switch even though the pressure threshold is met the switch will constantly cycle the compressor while filling and even after a full charge is attained, dependent on system settings and ambient temp. Obviously, when the compressor cycles off that situation is not doing much for charging the system, especially as the charge/pressures climb, so I bypass the cycling switch and watch the low/high side pressures in a compressor constant run mode until the system is fully charged. But charging the system in a normal cycling mode is certainly acceptable...however, it takes longer and I have a sense of urgency when someone is paying me by the shop hour. I have used a propane torch to warm up the refrigerant can in my youth but as I grew older my perspective changed! It`s usually pretty warm out when doing AC work so I bring the engine temp up by utilizing high idle engine op and place the refrigerant can in the pathway of the fan output to encourage the charging rate. Of course, when using a pro charging station a full charge can be accomplished without the engine running at all...but that is an "on the job" scenario which most folks on the forum cant relate to. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted April 16, 2020 Author Share Posted April 16, 2020 On 4/13/2020 at 1:38 PM, KongaMan said: Because they can. They sell compatible rather than functional replacements. Most folks don't know how their AC system works, so they don't know that the STV replacement completely changes the way temperature is modulated; they don't know that they had a two-stage diaphragm. All they know is that they get cold air and the defroster works, so it must be right. If you are suggesting someone some place can restore a first generation AC system on a 63-65 Riviera please let me who that person might be. Because if a recently restored AC system on said automobiles Is stock I would like to see the AC in operation. Are they using R12 and have they restored vacuum actuators 3 and 4? And have they restored the STV? I get cold air cold air and defroster works on my 63 and the AC system is as good as it is going to get. We cannot make chicken soup out of chicken feathers. Turbinator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Turbinator said: If you are suggesting someone some place can restore a first generation AC system on a 63-65 Riviera please let me who that person might be. Because if a recently restored AC system on said automobiles Is stock I would like to see the AC in operation. Are they using R12 and have they restored vacuum actuators 3 and 4? And have they restored the STV? You don't restore what ain't broken. But the stock AC on my 63 blows like a meat locker. But what I am saying is that the STV update kit isn't an STV at all; it's a pipe. Edited April 16, 2020 by KongaMan (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted April 16, 2020 Author Share Posted April 16, 2020 1 minute ago, KongaMan said: You don't restore what ain't broken. But the stock AC on my 63 blows like a meat locker. But what I am saying is that the replacement STV isn't an STV at all; it's a pipe. Konga Man, it is good your 63 is good and cold. I’m happy you didn’t have to fix yours or restore it. Supposedly, the STV can be restored At least that is what is advertised. The number 3 and 4 vacuum actuators are no longer available. So, without proper replacement parts if your AC is blowing 42-46F and the defroster works that is good as it is going to get pipe or no pipe. My AC was broke and no one is this area would or could fix it. So, knowing nothing one way or The other I finally got cold airport JUNE, July, and August last year. I’m in high hopes of having AC this summer with half baked solutions that produce cold air and defroster. Thank you for your feedback. Turbinator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minimarvel Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 My only comment would be.... They don't use modulated Vacuum Stv valves anymore because they don't have to. Technically it's a horrid system. Full Thermostat control is always going to be a better option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted April 16, 2020 Author Share Posted April 16, 2020 11 hours ago, Minimarvel said: My only comment would be.... They don't use modulated Vacuum Stv valves anymore because they don't have to. Technically it's a horrid system. Full Thermostat control is always going to be a better option. Minimarvel, I will not argue the value of the STV. Is it possible to retrofit a full thermostat control on the 63 Riviera? The full thermostat control could possibly be beyond my scope of understanding and not an option for me. Is it possible you could give an example of a full thermostat control configuration? i appreciate your feedback. Bob Burnopp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minimarvel Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 And me.... I am an electronic design engineer... Not a refrigeration engineer. But I have a great friend that is.... Designs the cooling systems to test aviation fuel at extreme temperatures. He has modified my 65 to work just like a modern car. Cabin Thermostat hidden etc. Works great. 1st World problem I guess for a car that is seldom driven... In the UK where it is cold most of the time... Best Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, Minimarvel said: My only comment would be.... They don't use modulated Vacuum Stv valves anymore because they don't have to. Technically it's a horrid system. Full Thermostat control is always going to be a better option. That's a false dichotomy. Full thermostat control is compatible with an STV-based system; all you need to do is replace the sliding lever with a temperature-controlled vacuum valve. Above the set temperature? Decrease the vacuum to the STV. Below? Increase it. Bingo; Bob's yer uncle. If you want to bypass the STV function entirely, pull and plug the vacuum line. Set up a thermostatic switch to turn the compressor on and off. That changes the nature of the system, but it accomplishes the same thing. As a practical matter, I've never found it exceedingly burdensome to adjust the lever as preference warrants. Edited April 16, 2020 by KongaMan (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minimarvel Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 Sorry you must be mistaken... I don't know a Bob... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted April 16, 2020 Author Share Posted April 16, 2020 1 minute ago, Minimarvel said: Sorry you must be mistaken... I don't know a Bob... Turbinator is my handle, but Mom calls me Bob. I appreciate everyone's assistance and efforts to help; however, I do have cold air in my car I'm just trying to improve and what I have may be all there is in absence of parts and experience. Some have said some Mobile AC Tech's in the US have to be certified. If that is the case I suppose I took on a challenge to get a 56 year car AC to produce cold air. Bob ( aka Turbinator ) Burnopp 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minimarvel Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 Lovely pic... I have cold air.... Turns out one of the 2 port valves that I bought for a million dollars was duff. Bought a very nice single port, polished alloy from ebay for £13.00 looks the part and works brilliantly. Fast powerful and used normally for waste gates on VW/Audi. No I don't have half open doors... But who cares... It works. Have a great evening Bob... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minimarvel Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted April 16, 2020 Author Share Posted April 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, Minimarvel said: Dave,looks good. Wide tires with neat wheels. The color appears black. Uncle Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted April 16, 2020 Author Share Posted April 16, 2020 7 minutes ago, Minimarvel said: Lovely pic... I have cold air.... Turns out one of the 2 port valves that I bought for a million dollars was duff. Bought a very nice single port, polished alloy from ebay for £13.00 looks the part and works brilliantly. Fast powerful and used normally for waste gates on VW/Audi. No I don't have half open doors... But who cares... It works. Have a great evening Bob... I bought my SMITHS dual function analog gauge for water temp and oil pressure from a shop in England. Have the 52 mm gauge tucked away in the ash tray. Close the door no one sees the gauge. bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minimarvel Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 Yes.... And one of very few in the UK... I did the same.... Put mine in the glove box, but it has an alarm you can set.... If it goes past 90c it howls at me.... Hot and cold lights just not enough considering the cost of repair for 7 litres of ancient petrol guzzler.... Bought blind.... A mess in many areas. Horrid repairs, many areas are polished turds.... But we have the power to fix it... Thick metal helps. Looking better daily. Oh and did I mention... Working Air con... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minimarvel Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 Verde Green... Or some back-street interpretation of it at least.. As I said.... We can fix it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted April 17, 2020 Author Share Posted April 17, 2020 11 hours ago, Minimarvel said: Verde Green... Or some back-street interpretation of it at least.. As I said.... We can fix it... Have had the car long? Will you do the body work? In US no matter where you go, GOOD body work and paint is costly. Center cap assembly I fashioned and mounted on a wire wheel I like. Turbinator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted April 17, 2020 Author Share Posted April 17, 2020 12 hours ago, Minimarvel said: Yes.... And one of very few in the UK... I did the same.... Put mine in the glove box, but it has an alarm you can set.... If it goes past 90c it howls at me.... Hot and cold lights just not enough considering the cost of repair for 7 litres of ancient petrol guzzler.... Bought blind.... A mess in many areas. Horrid repairs, many areas are polished turds.... But we have the power to fix it... Thick metal helps. Looking better daily. Oh and did I mention... Working Air con... although purchased blind I’m certain you are happy with the acquisition. Buzzer on the damn gauge at 90C! Clever. Best I could do is plug in the light on my gauge for night driving. Got holiday coming up? I’ll pay your expenses over and back to insure I have cold air! Well, almost. Turbinator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minimarvel Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07K87RFMQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted April 17, 2020 Author Share Posted April 17, 2020 3 hours ago, Minimarvel said: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07K87RFMQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Bought the SMITHS for measurably more than the one you show( however SMITHS 52 mm is only a tad smaller than the 62mm) Still your buy is the bargain. I had to make a large hole on the firewall to get the two protected lines to the switch for oil pressure and a tap on the driver side in the rear of the block for water temp. I bought this widget to replace the American made way over priced dual vacuum actuator. You are saying the waste gate vacuum actuator performs better than than the duff American dual port actuator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minimarvel Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 Haha, That is exactly the one I bought. Works a treat....need to make the holes bigger but now you have an adjustable vac actiuator...that you can set at half open by default if you wish.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted April 17, 2020 Author Share Posted April 17, 2020 11 minutes ago, Minimarvel said: Haha, That is exactly the one I bought. Works a treat....need to make the holes bigger but now you have an adjustable vac actiuator...that you can set at half open by default if you wish.... Ok, Dave I set the actuator at full open. I suppose Then I get more air coming across the evaporator? More air across the evaporator m I g h t equal more cold air. The switch ( electronic) I have mounted and is known as a STV update supposedly cycles the AC clutch on and off when more Freon is called for. I’ve never heard my switch engage or disengage. The A6 compressor from what I’ve been told is designed to stay engaged. My point I’m not sure the electronic switch I have performs all the functions your switch performs. Do you a temp control on your switch? Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 I'd be in big trouble trying to do the math converting C° to F°, especially while I was driving. I can't remember if it's F = C (5/9) +32 or F = C -32 (5/9) or what combination of operations and in which order. I don't do mental math as well as I used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted April 17, 2020 Author Share Posted April 17, 2020 1 hour ago, RivNut said: I'd be in big trouble trying to do the math converting C° to F°, especially while I was driving. I can't remember if it's F = C (5/9) +32 or F = C -32 (5/9) or what combination of operations and in which order. I don't do mental math as well as I used to. Teach , here is the trick( 2C)+30=F. Simple, not exact exact, but close enough for me. Besides, I can mark the real hot mark on the gauge with a “ yeller “ lumber crayon. Turbinator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 2 hours ago, Turbinator said: Ok, Dave I set the actuator at full open. I suppose Then I get more air coming across the evaporator? When the AC is on, all air flows across the evaporator unless the heat is also on -- in which case some of the air flows across or around the heater core. See Fig. 11-73 - 11-77 and the table in section 11-16 e. So, if you replaced the heater evaporator dual-stage diaphragm with a single-stage adjustable diaphragm, you would want it full open for maximum cooling. Of course, you would then lose the ability to have air come out both the heater and AC outlets. And why would you want to do that? If it's really humid and you want to put dehumidified air in the cabin while running the defroster to clear the windshield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 The centigrade can be done in your head. Just get rid of the fractions; .55 or 1.8 with + or - 32 as appropriate. Only one fraction pleases me. I have a car with a fuel gauge marked 0, 1/2, and 1/1. Unity for full makes me smile. "How's the gas?" "We have unity." I like that car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted April 17, 2020 Author Share Posted April 17, 2020 36 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said: The centigrade can be done in your head. Just get rid of the fractions; .55 or 1.8 with + or - 32 as appropriate. Only one fraction pleases me. I have a car with a fuel gauge marked 0, 1/2, and 1/1. Unity for full makes me smile. "How's the gas?" "We have unity." I like that car. F=(2C+30) Real close. Close enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KongaMan Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 Buy a Fahrenheit gauge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted April 17, 2020 Share Posted April 17, 2020 Just ask Google on your smart phone. (Fractions have less numbers to deal with than decimals. 1.8 in your head? it's easier to multiply by nine and divide by five.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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