Beemon

Me and my beautiful 1956 Buick

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Balancer slipping issues as far as I know is only a problem on the 364 and up. This was after consulting with Nailhead experts, so take it as you will. Thanks for the info, though. How do you like it so far? Is that 18 degrees initial advance? Are you still running road draft tube? When I put the 57+ distributor in my 322, I had to remove the road draft tube to get the wires in the right spot. In hindsight, I could have just rotated it two slots and moved the wires appropriately, but eh.

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The initial is "28" degrees.. The 18 is the mechanical advance stop.. As in it's limited to a max of 18 additional degrees via the mechanical advance...I  love  it.. Besides cost lol.. Been running it as a daily for about 5 years no issues.. Still running road draft no problems..

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I don't think mine has slipped..I  just  don't know why it has to be at 28 degrees.. Nor do I believe it actually is at 28 degrees.. No starter lag etc.. But if I adjust to anything near 5 degrees it just completely falls on it's face on take off to the point you can't even drive it.. I've given up on trying to figure out that one lol.. It runs great at 28 degrees and has for years so I guess I'm good..

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I love hardware stores. I went in expecting to buy 10 feet of 3/8" round stock and 3/8" id and 1/2" id pipe. I found in the specialty section that they had pre cut spacers in both id and found a 3/8" pin with a shoulder, as well as a new 3/8" ball bearing all for the price of 10 feet of 1/2" pipe. Just need to cut and weld and I'm in business for this starter switch idea. Not sure exactly what I will use for the arm and plate for the actual switch, but it'll probably be 1/8" flat stock.

 

Looking forward to making this switch. I've been driving around smelling gas, come to find it seeping from the throttle shaft on both ends. I Gave the shafts quite a jiggle and there's a lot of play. So I figure until I can professionally rebuild the carburetor and the car is of course ready to become the show queen she deserves to be, ill be playing with modern components. Which doesn't sound too bad, because I like to tinker. I just need to invest in an O2 sensor and bung to get the aftermarket carb dialed where I want it. 

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After two years I finally have the sweep spear back on the car! 

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Obviously you found the clips you needed. Were they they original type or aftermarkets? 

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9 hours ago, dei said:

Obviously you found the clips you needed. Were they they original type or aftermarkets? 

I Got the clips from a NAPA catalog, just basic clips that worked. Better than paying $20 on the internet. they're not correct but no one will know. 

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Thanks Ben.

I want to possibly replace some of my rear quarter trim with good used ones I have and expect to have to replace some clips. Will check out the NaPa cataloge.

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665-1339 and 665-1917 were the ones I used for the sweep spear front piece. I do not think they are the same size for the rest of the car. I was just happy I could get some local without having to pay shipping!

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Any local auto body supply store will have a decent selection of trim clips.  I had to buy all new for my 58 Limited when I slapped it back together to sell.  All of the old ones were toast.  Also used mostly new ones on Lance's 57 Roadmaster.  It took a couple trips up there because I just bought a grab bag of sizes and ended up having to get more in certain sizes.

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That's where I was going to stop next, but I figured they'd give me the mark up and realistically are probably being supplied by NAPA, as well, for a majority of the basic clips. 

 

We got our winter coldsnap. The roads have frost over them, so conditions are right for snow but we most likely won't get any here at home. The university is apparently buried deep right now, the snow hit the night I left. I also found out that there is a leak somewhere in the coolant system of the Jeep, and I can smell it burning off so I'm more than positive it's the heater core. To make a long story short, unless the coolant system can be fixed by January 7th, I'll be driving back in the old iron. I don't want to risk blowing a head gasket due to steam pockets in the block. I don't have the money to fix the coolant issue, I definitely do not have the money to fix a blown engine. On these 2002 Jeep Liberty's, the heater core is behind the dash and requires the complete removal of the dash to get to the core. 

 

It kind of sucks that the only good car I own is the 60 year old one with the messed up paint and open differential. We went out today and she started right up. The heater core was so hot she almost cooked me out. I took the WCFB off again and looked over the throttle shafts. All my old carbs weep from every corner and smell like gas whenever I turned the car off. The intake has this dirty brown fuel stain, too. Kind of a shame, but I'll be using the Edelbrock until I can afford a carb restoration that oversizes the throttle shaft bores and installs bushings or something. Maybe I'm looking too far into it, but the Edelbrock gives a much better vacuum signal and the rough rumble is gone, indicating that the idle quality is much better. I understand these old carbs are calibrated for a leak around the shaft, but the shaft play is excessive and worn. The 4GC is pretty bullet proof on the shafts, but it leaks from the plugs so its a loose loose. If only I could use the base of the 4GC on a WCFB.. haha. Anyways I like to drive my car and I'm not going to any big shows soon, and my car will never be original when I replace the steering box so I'm practically eliminated from any type of potential concourse unless I drive the car with dysfunctional worn parts, so why not do with it as I please? 

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I know you don't wanna hear it but you'll have less problems with the modern carb.. And yes the heaters work well lol

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Oh yeah definitely less problems but you don't get the same look as the original carb. I would like to some day to machine a new rack and pinion gear for the steering box and restore the carburetor to reliability (remember, not only do you have to bush the throttle shafts, but we're constantly reminded the idle tubes must be enlarged to recalibrate the carb for modern fuels,  not to mention a lack of affordable tuning options post idle).

 

I'm terms of modern carburetors, on the Edelbrock from 650CFM and below the primary plates are the same size as the smaller carbs but the secondaries are larger, so despite the adapter plate changing the flow characteristic into the plenum, the flow restriction is on the secondary side only. So you can really benefit from the modern calibrations and that's probably why there is widespread reports for increased fuel economy with a modern carb. The only issue is that you have to detune the secondary side, assuming primary side is okay outside the box. 

 

It sure would be nice if someone made an AFB base intake for the 322 that isn't a dual quad manifold.  ?

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Oh I understand..my feelings are as long as it's the original drive train I'm good.. Although I couldn't bring myself to run a modern alternator on it.. Yes better and cheaper but looked wrong so I spent a fortune on the powergen lol.. 

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(  Find spare 322 4bbl intake.  Chuck it in lathe.  Cut carb base mounting pad down.  Install studs.  Fabricate WCFB/4GC plate.  Fabricate Edlebrock AFB 650cfm/Holley squarebore plate./  Install base on cut-down carb pad of 322 4bbl intake as needed.  Can also be used to block the heat track.  Paint to match intake!  )

 

NTX54687

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If you dudes that think you will have less issues with the clone would ever return either the Rochester 4-GC or the Carter WCFB to original specs; you would then throw rocks at the clone.

 

Often, a comparison is made with an original with 200k miles to a new shiny clone.

 

The clone may actually perform better in this comparison. But if you restore the original the way the Carter/Rochester/Buick engineers designed it; then the clone wins only in "shiny". Virtually impossible to tune out the secondary hesitation when using the clone on a Buick. The attack angle on the auxiliary air valve is too steep. Again, simply look at how the originals were engineered. If I had a dollar for every customer with a clone on a Buick or Pontiac who called with a secondary hesitation; I could buy Hawaii and retire! ;)

 

My 2 cents.

 

Jon.

Edited by carbking (see edit history)
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Not to side track to much but this question is for carbking.. Any thoughts on the Holley 2300 350cfm 7448 carbs??

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1 hour ago, carbking said:

Often, a comparison is made with an original with 200k miles to a new shiny clone.

 

Yes this is it exactly, and I understand what I'm comparing. I like the look of the Carter WCFB much better than the look of the Carter AFB and clones. However, as you've said in the past, re calibrating the carburetor for modern fuels requires precise machining, which is something that is more expensive than just slapping a $100 rebuild kit in there. I've found a few places local that could bush the throttle shafts, but no one to re-drill and plug the fuel passages, or drill out the idle and transition circuits to be calibrated for modern fuels. I am sure a 100% fully restored original carburetor would be flawless with leaded gasoline from 1956, but without precise machining of the transition circuits, it won't run as good as it should. Maybe I'm making it a bigger deal than it should, but carburetor restoration is going to the wayside very quickly, and is getting expensive pretty quick, as is expertise. The shops around here won't attempt it unless it's a late model Carter, Holley or Quadrajet.

 

I do not like the base Edelbrock, but the AVS could be tuned on the secondary side to eliminate a secondary bog with the variable spring loaded air valve. I do not feel a secondary bog personally with their basic 600CFM carb, but I can see why others would. Their AVS2 model even has annular discharge boosters, which puts it above any carb that doesn't.

 

Every thing I have mailed to be restored by a shop has come back garbage, and I have been burned at just about every corner of my "restoration" from engine to steering box. So for me, I would rather run an Edelbrock carb than send my carb out to some shop on the other side of the country and have it come back with just a kit installed. I mean if you (Jon) were still doing restorations, it would be a no brainer. But that's just where I stand. I've made the concious decision where if I cannot find a local shop, it is not worth the risk and money. If there was an AACA or BCA vendor that did full restorations and a re calibration that isn't just idle circuits, then I would try to find them. But my steering box and pump was also through an AACA vendor and I'm pretty much burned on anything internet related.

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4 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Tri an EFI! You might like it.

 

  Ben

 

Was waiting for you to say that! A bit out of the budget at the moment. :P

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1956322 - I have no experience with the afore-mentioned Holley, therefore, I can post no opinion specifically on this unit. I have found that, unless an engine is modified, very difficult to improve on original equipment on vehicles produced after about 1950. This is not always true on pre-WWII vehicles, as the database of knowledge on mechanical devices was increasing daily in the earlier years. If an engine is modified, then the modifier becomes the engineer, and is responsible for the results. Think about the "Law of Unintended Consequences". It truly is real.

 

Ben - sorry that you are having bad experiences with restorers. There are truly a lot of talented individuals in our hobby, and a few whose talents seem to be advertising and taking one's money for less than professional work. Sorry you are finding too many of these.

 

I honestly do not know to whom you could send the WCFB. Bob Kunz (St. Louis) and I (central Missouri) did lots of WCFBs for years. Bob has offered his shop for sale, and I am unaware if he is still doing carburetors. If so, I believe you would like his product.

 

Cliff Ruggles (Cliff's High Performance, Ohio) specializes in Q-Jets, but also sometimes does other Rochesters, and you might coerce him into doing your WCFB. But Cliff has quite a backlog.

 

Classic Carburetors in Phoenix is very good on older single-barrel and two-barrel carbs, but don't think they will do any four-barrels. Not sure.

 

We (The Carburetor Shop) quit restoring carburetors approximately 6 years ago, simply because of the high demand for our made-in-the-USA major rebuilding kits. At this time, I do not foresee us getting back into carburetor restoration. But always willing to try to help with answers.

 

Jon.

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A few things to consider with aftermarket four-barrel carburetors:

 

(1) Carter produced 216 different type WCFB carburetors

(2) Carter additionally produced 505 different type AFB carburetors

(3) Rochester produced at least 212 different type 4-GC carbs (might be a couple more, my Rochester files are not quite as complete as my Carter files).

 

SOME of the difference in models WAS due to new engineering knowledge, but for the most part, different models were necessary to obtain the best from varying applications.

 

When Carter started producing aftermarket AFB's in 1969, the first group consisted of 5 models which were intended for racing applications.

 

About 1973, Carter started producing high performance STREET carburetors, (PRIMARILY FOR SMALL BLOCK CHEVROLET!). Why only for Chevrolet small blocks? Carter already offered performance street carburetors for Buick (dual quads, and also 625 quads), Cadillac (625 CFM), big block Chevrolet (dual quads, and 625 and 750 CFM singles), Chrysler (dual 625's, dual 750's, single 625s and 750s), Pontiac (dual 625's, 700's, 750's, and single 625s, 700s, 750s, and 950s), etc. But the factory small block Chevrolet high performance went to Holley in 1966. Yes, I am aware that the 9626s was offered for Chrysler Products, and the 9627s was offered for Ford products; but these were basically the 9625s (Chevrolet) with the appropriate throttle arm for the Chrysler or Ford applications.

 

So how many DIFFERENT clone (and other) aftermarket carburetor models are produced, and for exactly what application are they calibrated?

 

Think about it!

 

EDIT: Ben mentioned recalibration because of the ethanol fuel. This issue DOES present a challenge, but not a difficult one, just one that requires more research (and more cost). When Carter was still producing carburetors, Carter offered factory-engineered recalibration kits for various carburetors in: (1) 1 size lean, (2) 2 sizes lean, (3) rarely, 3 sizes lean, and (4) even more rarely, 1 size RICH. True, Carter did not offer these recalibration kits for all of their carburetors; but did offer enough to spend some time and develop what I call "percentage change equations" which can be successful applied to carburetors for which there was no factory kit. Due to many enthusiasts living in Colorado, I developed these percentage change equations for 1 size lean and 2 sizes lean years ago, and since I have custody of the Carter prototyping metering rod lathe, have offered these conversions for years. So why did Carter offer the rich calibration? Export. At one time, gasoline in various areas of the world was not the same quality as in the USA. That characteristic is now history!!! But we can use the original engineering data to make a really good SWAG at recalibration on other carbs.

 

Ben also mentioned the clone AVS. Carter also made type AVS carbs. Chevrolet tried it in 1966 and obsoleted it in 1967!!! Chrysler used it from 1968 to 1971 in order to pass new Federal smog emission legislation. When the new TQ became available, Chrysler obsoleted the AVS. On paper, Carter offered the AVS as an aftermarket unit in 1973, but in 46 years, I have yet to actually see one! They simply did not sell. Yes, the air-valve spring was used successfully on hundreds of Q-Jets, and thermoquads BUT; look at the number of different choke pull offs with different vacuum orifices (air valve timing) and air valve plate characteristics (air flow direction) were used on these.

 

We have really "progressed", unfortunately, to the "one size fits all, works well on nothing, but is dirt-cheap" philosophy.

 

Jon.

Edited by carbking (see edit history)
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Today was our first snow. My girlfriend let her sister drive her car, and that usually never goes well. She ended up rolling her front passenger rim up over the curb and nearly split it in two, one turn from my house. I told them they weren't to drive the car until a new rim is procured, it was a miracle that it was still holding air. It even split the tire at the break in the rim. In any case, I still had to get her sister home. So, my only two options were to drive a vintage Buick in an inch of snow or a modern Jeep with no coolant..

 

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This was the beginning of our adventure, or about 30 minutes before. The snow accumulation was quick and unexpected.

 

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Snow was definitely sticking to the ground, but it wasn't too bad. The only tires I could buy for the car were M+S SUV tires over the counter. I guess it paid off?

 

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After I dropped off her sister, I had to get myself a cheeseburger so I casually whipped the Buick sideways into a parking spot. It's not very often I can put the old iron sideways.

 

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And this is right after we got back. I had to hand push the Jeep through 1 inch of snow so she could park the car behind it. They were scared, but I wasn't. Kind of reminded me of that scene from Star Wars where they rescue Princess Leia from the Death Star and she says to Han Solo "You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought." It's good practice for when I go back to Pullman, considering the Jeep won't be fixed anytime soon and I'm not privy to running the risk of blowing the block.

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