Beemon

Me and my beautiful 1956 Buick

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5 hours ago, wndsofchng06 said:

I have an f100 with manual disc/drum setup and a fiat with 4 wheel manual discs. Lol

 

It's a little bit different, those cars were made for those systems and probably have a really high pedal ratio with a 6:1 unless you did that mod yourself.

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10 hours ago, Beemon said:

 

It's a little bit different, those cars were made for those systems and probably have a really high pedal ratio with a 6:1 unless you did that mod yourself.

Right but I'm saying that you make it seem like it's impossible but now it sounds like your own calculations say it is possible. Personally the vacuum booster is meaningless to me.

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24 minutes ago, wndsofchng06 said:

Right but I'm saying that you make it seem like it's impossible but now it sounds like your own calculations say it is possible. Personally the vacuum booster is meaningless to me.

It is good to know that the disc conversion works with 56 power brakes (and maybe 55 power brakes since it is similar in function but not location).  I did see that conversion on a 55 manual brake system and it did not work well:  seems that only the rear brakes were functioning while the rotors were only warm after some hard stops that were scary; may be a difference in pedal ration  along with MC bore size on manual vs power brakes.

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@Beemon Can you explain that pedal ratio concept in terms a non engineer might understand a bit easier?  I am not able to figure out where this measurement is taken, and how it is calculated, and how it impacts the situation, nor how it would be increased or decreased?  Thanks

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1 hour ago, JohnD1956 said:

@Beemon Can you explain that pedal ratio concept in terms a non engineer might understand a bit easier?  I am not able to figure out where this measurement is taken, and how it is calculated, and how it impacts the situation, nor how it would be increased or decreased?  Thanks

 

John, when I say 6:1 pedal ratio,  think of it like this: 

-*------ 

 

The asterisk is the pivot point. The short end is attached to the master cylinder and the long end is the pedal end. The 6:1 ratio is indicative of long end being 6 times the size as the short end. This gives the mechanical advantage of increasing the torque (radius x force) applied. If you put 50 lbs on the pedal for instance (length of 6 in for example), the torque is 300 in lbs or however you measure. This is transmitted to the master where it's the same torque but with a 1 inch distance, giving you 300 lbs at the top (300 in lbs / 1 inch is 300 lbs). Hope this helps. 

 

Matt, the calculations were done with a power booster. I could see about the manual but I do not know the bore and length. Its also a completely different system. In this application it seems the brake booster is taking up the majority of the work. 56 manual system is also 1 year only and that is what I'm basing my opinion on. 

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HERE is a good explanation of pedal ratio, bore size, pedal travel, etc.

Now I have a question for our resident engineer:  the bore size of my 55 with manual brakes is one inch; the rod size (that displaces fluid) in the power brake master cylinder is 5/8 inch....does the rod size in a displacement master cylinder correlate with the piston/bore size in a manual cylinder?

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Willie i meant to give you a more in depth response earlier but I've been moving non stop with the holidays. 

 

There's a few things that come to mind. Basically boils down to displaced volume and force/ pressure applied to the cross sectional area. Your master cylinder pushes the fluid as I'm sure you're aware, but it needs to push enough fluid to displace all 8 wheel cylinder pistons with enough force to stop the car. My theory is that the power brake units have the smaller pistons but displace the same if not more fluid than the standard brake master cylinder piston. You would also have to factor how far the pistons in the wheel cylinder displace, too. Most of the time this can be approximated as small increments if the shoes are properly adjusted. If the column of fluid, for the sake of simplicity, is considered as a bore, then the smaller piston with the same pedal ratio would generate more pressure since pressure is force divided by area. More force is required to displace more fluid per unit volume with the shoes on the drum acting as a resistive spring in a non compressible hydraulic system. A larger bore will have more surface area and can displace more fluid if the stroke is the same, but requires more force to equal the force of the smaller piston. 

 

Basically, it is more difficult in this scenario for the manual master system to engage the brakes than the power system if we are to assume no power assist. However, with the same stroke the manual can push more fluid but will require more pedal effort. This is why manual systems before power became standard were usually 6:1 pedal ratios and power were 4:1.

 

This of course excludes the self energizing function of drum brakes and is probably why the difference is negligible. However, it became an issue in the early 70s when discs were introduced and it called for larger brake boosters and master cylinders.

 

In regards to brake line sizing, the formula papers I've read seem to only reference sizing as a way to battle burst pressure.

 

I can get you a more inclusive answer once I'm back at school. 

 

***

 

In other news I've been looking for a suitable oil filter for my spin on conversion. I originally bought the OEM 1049 filter from the NAPA warehouse but was immediately disappointed it did not come with an anti drain back valve. For those of you who do not know, it is a one way valve that not only holds oil in the filter, but also a column of oil in the upper oil galleries from draining back through the filter. Without the ADBV I might as well keep the canister oil filter and live with 20th Century noisy lifters and dry starts. This was a no go for me and I found part number 1522 for LS V8 truck engines a suitable replacement. 

 

Note it is smaller, does not have a pressure relief valve (this is good because it's built into the adapter housing) and has an ADBV. The 5.3L oil change interval is 5000 miles, which is better than a 56 Buick's OEM interval. Oils and filters are much better than they used to be and the NAPA/Wix filters use a synthetic paper filter. The 1522 is also over the counter and the 1049 is special order. I believe this combination will work better than the OEM spec filter from 70 years ago. And as demonstrated, OEM filters have gotten better and smaller with longer change intervals than their old counterparts. 

 

Tomorrow hopefully I can get to doing an axle seal job and oil filter adapter swap. 

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Thanx 4 the info Ben! Im going to switch to that 1522 Napa gold as well. That adbv is a great advantage, especially when one considers the fact that the most engine wear happens during cold start, or so Ive read anyway. Ive been using the Napa gold ever since I found out they were Wix brand filters, but stuck a different brand on impatiently for startup after pan and pump removal and cleanup. Bought my 55 without running it cuz it was worth getting regardless, but was happy when it seemed to run well. Heading 2 Napa mahnyawna!

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Greg if you find a larger filter, let me know! I did find a filter that was the same dimensions as the 1049 but it had a different thread pitch. I guess I could have tapped it but that's a huge scare. I've heard if you shoot shaving cream in the hole, you can just vacuum it all back out... the 1060 filter is the same thread pitch but the gasket seals the outside lip of the adapter. Pretty sketchy, didn't want to risk it. 

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One of my first posts on the forum was about a LuberFiner 200s bypass filtration system. It's long been obsolete and filters are not readily available for it. My grandfather was a firm believer of bypass filtration systems, and although he changed his oil religiously, he had a truck shop install the system on the Buick. 

 

I had some plans for it originally but I kept it on the car just because he's always asked. After he died, I thought about turning it into an urn but it wasn't my place to do so. It's been empty and cleaned out and I've used it as a chiller on some occasion, but I've always come back to my grandfather insisting on added filtration. So, after his passing, I came up with this. 

 

It's a 99% 5 micron nominal filter. It's probably better than the 200S ever could be and it's smaller. The filter media is a cellulose blend, which makes it capable if filtering high humidity condensation and probably fuel from the oil system so sulfuric acids and other nasty byproducts don't have a chance to form. This car went almost 300,000 miles in the 22 years it was on the road since brand new and my grandfather associated it with the annual filter change of the Luberfiner. 

 

I don't want to get into the what works, what doesn't work, why would you do that aspect of this mod, but I figured I'd post about it still. I much prefer the period correct look of the Luberfiner but my grandfather was very insistent I keep some type of bypass system on the car. 

 

Hope you guys enjoy. I haven't installed it yet but hope to today or tomorrow. 

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@2carb40 if you haven't yet, check out filter 1258. It's a bit bigger than the 1522. Luckily my fiance's 07 Pontiac uses the 1522, too, so I lucked out. 

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Thanx for the additional info. Nice to have a size choice, all else being equal. I wonder if the size difference affects flow volume between those two filters. There is also a "beta" rating which relates to the amount of particles that are filtered per cycle through the filter at the rated micron size. Filters for NASA are of necessity higher Beta rated for instance than auto engine oil filters which are a bit of a compromise in terms of micron size particles per run through to ensure enuff flow. Its a bit of a task to obtain that rating on a specific filter. The filters on the hydraulics on the Toro stuff I worked on had to have very high quality filters to avoid having sticky control valves and hydrostat damage. 

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The beta ratio for the three filters are the same and are posted on the NAPA website. 2/20=6/20 for the beta ratios. 

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I picked up this steering wheel off of "my" parts car 56 Special, and this bypass filter from a 56 Hudson, all for $60. Seriously there isn't a single crack on the steering wheel anywhere. It has been nicked in a few places given the nature of junkyards, but otherwise it's perfect. I was skeptical about it at first, but then I realized all the knobs and switches are also black plastic, it won't look too out of place. I will miss the ivory wheel. 

 

Here's what I was talking about in terms of my steering wheel spokes being messed up. The horn ring is bottomed out at the bottom, but centered on the column, so it's not free floating on the spring like its supposed to. 

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Also, at the request of my sister, I've decided to name the car Viola.

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So it seems I've got more work to do. Upon removing the contact ring and plugging in the horn at the steering column, it went off as soon as the plug touched the terminal at the column... I stuck my finger in the hole and the ring from what i could tell was in the right place (i remember reading John's had slipped down the shaft). Since I'm planning to replace the steering box, this is probably the time to pull the steering column. Here's hoping 56 is the same as 55!

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10 hours ago, Beemon said:

I will miss the ivory wheel.

 

Why not paint it?  There's some good epoxy 'rattle-can' paints out there these days.  Or, find a local auto paint jobber and have a spray can made up of the proper color (or close approximation) acrylic enamel.

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1 hour ago, EmTee said:
12 hours ago, Beemon said:

I will miss the ivory wheel.

 

Why not paint it?  There's some good epoxy 'rattle-can' paints out there these days.  Or, find a local auto paint jobber and have a spray can made up of the proper color (or close approximation) acrylic enamel.

 

The black wheels seem to hold up better than other colors...change the color

 

7 hours ago, Beemon said:

So it seems I've got more work to do. Upon removing the contact ring and plugging in the horn at the steering column, it went off as soon as the plug touched the terminal at the column... I stuck my finger in the hole and the ring from what i could tell was in the right place (i remember reading John's had slipped down the shaft). Since I'm planning to replace the steering box, this is probably the time to pull the steering column. Here's hoping 56 is the same as 55!

 

If plugging causes the horn to blow with the steering wheel off and you are sure that the wire is isolated at the steering wheel end, then the ring is probably broken and shorting. 

Replace the ring.

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8 hours ago, Beemon said:

So it seems I've got more work to do. Upon removing the contact ring and plugging in the horn at the steering column, it went off as soon as the plug touched the terminal at the column... I stuck my finger in the hole and the ring from what i could tell was in the right place (i remember reading John's had slipped down the shaft). Since I'm planning to replace the steering box, this is probably the time to pull the steering column. Here's hoping 56 is the same as 55!

 

If you meant my steering column ring , it was pushed up the shaft, and the plug was not touching the ring.  

 

Are you saying you installed the steering wheel and the horn ring.  and then when you attached the wire to the plug at the bottom of the column, the horn sounded?  If so, did you remember to leave enough gap at the horn ring on the steering wheel?  It may be that the ring is too tight, and you just need to back off the nut (holding the ring)  a little.  If I recall correctly there is supposed to be a 1/4 " gap for the horn ring at the steering wheel so it can rock on the spring. 

Edited by JohnD1956 (see edit history)
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So, let me clarify. The steering wheel was off and when I plugged in the terminal, the horn sounded. This is what I meant by "i hope 56 is like 55". After reading Willie's website (thank you keeping this information available), the solution was for a 56. I will keep you guys posted. 

 

About the color, it's not bad.. paint isn't out of the equation yet, but it does fit with the black knobs... at least the horn button now sits flush at all the spokes! I've hung up the old wheel someplace nice as a reminder some day when I can afford a wheel restoration.

 

Replacing the wheel was pretty straight forward. There is an index on the wheel and a punch mark on the shaft that needs to be lined up. On my car, the index was one spline to the left of the index mark on the wheel.

Edited by Beemon (see edit history)
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@BeemonLikely the lead in the steering column is shorting at the button under the horn ring.  

 

Do you have any of that liquid wire insulation?  My good mechanic friend suggested that stuff to me.  It is available at the hardware stores.  It's not cheap but if you only need a little to fix the wire at the end by the steering wheel, you may find that to be easier than pulling and disassembling the column. 

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Sorry John, it wasn't that easy...

 

Pulling the column from the car was actually pretty easy and straight forward. I removed the firewall bulkhead, unplugged the three connectors from the fuse panel and unbolted the gearbox and linkage. Once the column was dropped to clear the mounting bracket, I rotated 90* clockwise to clear the linkage arm and it was out. Then I took the steering wheel off again, unbolted the collar at the base of the column and pulled... the shaft came right out. My horn ring wasn't even attached to the wire anymore and it had been oblonged. Per Willie's website, I purchased a copper pipe fitting (1" to 3/4") and its the perfect size. That's where im at right now. I noticed that the original brass collar was only radiased on one side so im going to crimp the other side once I get it cut down.. the horn wire looks salvageable but still yet to be determined. 

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Steering column is back in! Plugged in the horn wire and... nothing! Everything is as it should be. Followed the shop manual instructions, tighten until horn then back off a quarter turn. The copper sleeve is much longer and thicker than the original. I soldered the wire to the inside of the collar, then used shrink wrap at the base. I then moved the insulator down the shaft, followed by the collar, then fed the wire and soldered to the top. I also adjusted my neutral safety switch while it was out so reverse will activate my lights with out having to hold down the lever. All in all, very happy. Now I can go retrieve the title and honk my horn at inspection with pride (it's been three years since my lost tile papers were filed). 

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Love a happy ending.  One question, if I may.  In the last picture, regarding the round hole, is that where the light bulb is for the shift position designator on the column?  

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7 hours ago, JohnD1956 said:

Love a happy ending.  One question, if I may.  In the last picture, regarding the round hole, is that where the light bulb is for the shift position designator on the column?  

 

 

Yes it is! It was very dirty so I cleaned the chrome reflector out on the inside. I didn't think it was important so I did not take pictures, sorry John. 

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