Beemon

Me and my beautiful 1956 Buick

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Just now, wndsofchng06 said:

Can you not drill and install bushings in your carb at the school machine shop?

 

You would need to setup a precision jig and have everything right the first time to do it correctly. It has to be 100% on point going in one end and out the other. I could most likely do it on the CNC or the Bridgeport but majority of the time, due to each individual skill level of the students going in, the machines can get really messed up in the shop. When going into the class, by observation, 90% of engineering students have never seen or heard of a mill and lathe. Pretty dumbfounding to me, but not really surprising since majority of engineering students by observation are strictly book smart with zero practical application. For instance, even after taking a thermodynamics class, my roommate still doesn't know how engines work despite taking the advanced classes and wants to work at Boeing. Last year, someone destroyed the 3D printer by playing with the settings and this year people have been breaking mill ends left and right. Someone even crashed the CNC lathe so it's extremely hit or miss how things go in the actual shop. The mill in the race car shop is already pretty inaccurate. I'm not sure who hit it but I would not consider it for anything other than crude jobs like coping tubes or doing an intake manifold job. 

 

Milling out the intake required zero precision to do. Because the base of the WCFB is aluminum, I would need to invest in some soft jaws. Then, I would need a block of aluminum to CNC for the jig to hold the throttle body by bolting it to the jig at a perfect 90 degree angle. Then, I would have to find a perfect pickup for the CNC head to start the bore operation with perfect measured precision on an X and Y plane. If at some point in the three part operation the CNC software messes up, I'm done and out a carb. 

 

I would rather send it to a professional carb restoration shop that, if they mess up, can spend their time searching for a replacement throttle body. The only issue is the service hits you with a $600 or more price tag depending on prestige. There's a local shop near me that says they can do it but they don't have a log book of previous jobs so I'm apprehensive to it. 

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Benefits of AACA Membership.

If you get into industry, especially automotive, you'll find much the same.  Run the machines till they crash, patch em' and go till they crash again.  When things dont come out precise, ask engineering for variances...  And yet we wonder why there are so many TSBs and recalls. 😀

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To be fair, I have seen the ebay special throttle shaft reamers. Really makes you think, once you look at it, how it's supposed to go into a hand held drill. 

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10 minutes ago, Beemon said:

To be fair, I have seen the ebay special throttle shaft reamers. Really makes you think, once you look at it, how it's supposed to go into a hand held drill. 

 

 Perhaps because you are overthinking?

 

  Affordable Fuel Injection, which I have, includes an adapter, if needed. They "reman" original throttle bodys from the '90s and early 2000s. Now using OBD2  ECM's.  One advantage to this over OBD1, which I have, is it can mount under the hood. 

 

  Ben

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8 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

 

 Perhaps because you are overthinking?

 

You put the reamer end in the drill chuck. 

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Reaming is done to the bushings AFTER the bushings are installed to obtain the final clearance. Reaming the throttle body might also result in reaming one's wallet!!!!!

 

Machining the throttle body for the bushings, IF YOU WANT GOOD RESULTS, should be done with an end mill in a milling machine, or at worst, a very high quality drill press. A DRILL BIT SHOULD NOT BE USED!

 

Lots of carburetor throttle bodies are unnecessarily bushed!!!!! Check the original manufacturer's specifications, AND MEASURE! (Using one's index finger to move the throttle shaft back and forth is an insufficient measure ;) ). And certainly not all tolerances are the same, even within the same manufacturer!

 

Jon.

Edited by carbking (see edit history)
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The above post was made in a hurry.

 

Adding:

 

The reason for never reaming the throttle body, and for not using a drill bit is quite simple. Pretend that your are Superman and have X-Ray vision. If you ream the throttle body through, and install the bushings, with your X-Ray vision looking down on the throttle body, you can see two tiny triangles on each side of the bushing where the flat end of the bushing meets the curvature of the throttle bore. These are sufficiently large to allow internal air to bypass the throttle valve. This often will result in a very high idle, as too much air will be present at idle. Additionally, trying to adjust the idle for the extra air may mean closing the throttle valve to the point where there is no mixture flow in the idle transition circuit, thus causing a hesitation when accelerating from the idle to the off-idle or idle transition circuit.

 

When using the end mill, measure the distance from outside the throttle body to the throttle bore so you can leave approximately 0.030 inch or more to maintain the curvature of the throttle bore.

 

Since the drill bit is cut at an angle, using a drill bit will leave a cavity with edges between the bushing and the remaining material. Carburetors are certainly not rocket science, but they do require correct maintenance.

 

With no offense meant to anyone; this is a procedure that is best left to a professional with the correct machines. No, I do NOT offer this service! ;)

 

I have been asked many times over the years to offer a kit for installing bushings. My answer has been "if you have the machines to properly do the work, you don't need the kit; and if you do not have the machines to do the work, you definitely do not need the kit"!

 

Jon 

 

 

Edited by carbking (see edit history)
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Jon, thank you for your insight and expertise! It basically just solidified my stance on the whole thing and confirmed what I already speculated. By the way I meant to call you yesterday but I missed the time zone cutoff. I assume I'll be waiting until Monday? Or can I email order and be fine? 

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Ben - I am an old geezer that doesn't dislike telephones as much as I detest the necessary evil of email ;)

 

To protect the integrity of our computer systems, emails are sent to an off-site computer and checked Sunday afternoons, TIME PERMITTING. If time doesn't permit, then next Sunday afternoon.

 

Would be best if you call Monday.

 

Others:

 

After re-reading my posts, it seems I neglected to post clearances. As a general rule, both the Rochester 4-Jet and the Carter WCFB used 0.004~0.006 as a design tolerance. Additional field wear of 0.003 is acceptable. So if the clearance as measured with a dial indication, not click-click, is less than 0.010 best to leave alone. I have yet to see either the cast iron WCFB or the cast iron 4-Jet require bushings. The earlier WCFB and 4-Jet has aluminum throttle bodies, which occasionally do need bushing (very rare). The Carter AFB is a different animal with the huge aluminum throttle body; and initial tolerance of 0.016~0.022 were used.Will the throttle body suck some air before it heats up? Sure. Did the engineers allow for this? Guess what? The automatic choke is heat activated to the warm of the engine, NOT a timed electric, and increases the mixture until the engine warms. Sometimes engineers really do know what they are doing ;) I have yet to see a Carter AFB that required bushing.

 

On a personal note: when I bushed my first carb (for my own car, experiment on my own before doing for customers), I set the tolerance at 0.004 just like the minimum design. Now, I have some pretty good machinery, and I think I am pretty cautious; but I do not (for the most part) have production quality equipment. The first time the engine warmed, the throttle shaft seized in the throttle body. Took out the shaft, and resized to 0.005 clearance with no more issues. So from then on, I used 0.005 as my standard.

 

Since this is concerning Buicks:

 

Buick used the Stromberg type WW for years. The WW was an excellent carb, but with the Achilles heel of an aluminum throttle body. The first rebuild of ANY Stromberg WW should include bushing the throttle body. After that, the WW is virtually bullet-proof. Same 0.004~0.006 for the WW.

 

Finally: if the tolerance exceeds the limits:

 

BEFORE bushing the throttle body, disassemble the throttle body, removing the throttle shaft (FILE THE BACK SIDE OF THE SCREWS OFF FIRST!!!!!). Now measure the out-of-round of the throttle shaft. Much easier to replace the shaft (although they aren't inexpensive) than bushing the throttle body. Fix what needs to be fixed.

 

Jon.

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I've been on the hunt for a fill plug for the differential after I noticed some seeping. At first I thought it was an M20x1.50 plug but quickly found out the threads did not match up. Next I checked 3/4" bolts both fine and course. Nothing. Then, i went to the pipe section. Turns out the differential plug is 1/2" pipe thread. And of course you either get the square plug or the allen plug. Neither of which have a flange for a gasket. 

 

Also, gaskets for these are available but they are thin both in OD and thickness. At first I thought my gasket was hard and unusable, but the gaskets available were just as hard so I've decided to reuse mine. 

 

About the plug: it looks like grandpa lost a few battles servicing the rear end. He filed down one side to get on it with vise grips. Im starting my internet search now, see if I can find anything out there. It might unfortunately be a custom machine job when I go back to school. 

 

About the seeping: I've noticed that the driver side axle has been leaking. Fortunately the drain hole is doing its job and it's leaking down the outside of the backing plate and not the inside, so the shoes are safe. I checked the fluid level and it's still at the top so everything is still ok but it looks like I'll have to add a vent at some point. I was informed 55 has a diff vent but I know 56 does not. Seems like a silly thing to regress on but maybe the sperm whale miracle oil that was meant to be lifetime didnt react the same as a non-newtonian fluid. 

 

If I can't find anything, I think the best course of action will be to buy the M22 plug and use a 1/2" pipe die.

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Hmm you sure you don't have a vent cause mine definitely does.. Driver side up top of course.. They tend to get greased over...

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5 hours ago, 1956322 said:

Hmm you sure you don't have a vent cause mine definitely does.. Driver side up top of course.. They tend to get greased over...

 

Is this it on top of the axle section? Because i have nothing on the actual carrier housing. 

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12 hours ago, Beemon said:

Turns out the differential plug is 1/2" pipe thread.

 

If that's the case, shouldn't the threads seal the hole without a gasket...?  :huh:

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4 hours ago, EmTee said:

 

If that's the case, shouldn't the threads seal the hole without a gasket...?  :huh:

 

Yeah that's plan B. The metal is kinda thin, like 1/8" thick so it might bottom out but I was looking at my 02 Jeep this morning and it uses a 1/2-14 NPT plug as well that has an opening for a 3/8" ratchet so I might go by the Mopar counter today. It is yet to be determined if its NPT or NPS.

 

2 hours ago, 1956322 said:

Yup that's it

 

Wow I've never noticed. I was doing some research and found the breather to be a GM standard thing. I guess I can either get a plastic one or, the Chevy resto guys have the original stamped metal available. Is there a way to pop the top and clean it without removal? 

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That I'm not sure about I guess I'm theory you could bend the cap off most likely destroying it in the process

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14 minutes ago, Beemon said:

Is there a way to pop the top and clean it without removal? 

Pry it off, insert wire to verify that it is open, tap on when finished.

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I got the cap off and stuck the wire in. There wasn't much resistance so I'm thinking now the axle gasket must just be bad. That's a nice sigh of relief and I was already planning on pulling the driver side axle. Passenger side is dry so best to let sleeping dogs lie. 

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Here we are at the crossroads again. 

 

I contacted Scarebird and they shipped me replacement bearing spacers. This is after I noticed grinding noises coming from the front end ball bearings. My originals are pretty much done for, they had sat out and pitted since before I got to the car, back when my grandfather was using the car as a lawn storage and after my uncle put it on jack stands and pulled the hubs and dismantled the engine. I bought replacement National bearings from Rockauto and have been using those instead for a while - they're the ones with the plastic cages. Well, none of them have broken but after pulling the hub today, I've noticed the inner bearings are loose (the inner race can be removed) but the outer bearings are tight (can't remove inner race without force). At one point, the inner bearing outer race had lost its press fit and was free spinning in one hub. How do they get away with selling this junk? 

 

Anyways, this brings us back to the Scarebird spacers. Originally I wanted to use BR5 bearings but their spacers utilize BR51 bearings because the bearing surface is not long enough for the BR5 to sit without flexing on the spindle. I can confirm this is the case. I could chuck the spindle in a lathe, turn down the race surface and press a longer surface onto the spindle, but that's a lot of work. Ball bearings are also known to not play well with radial tires due to their flatter ground contact. 

 

So here's the dilemma. I've heard the stock master cylinder can be used with disk brakes and I still have my original scarebird kit. I ran the calculations with a colleague who has been doing the cockpit control systems, specifically the brakes, and it had been determined it should work fine. When I had originally gone this route, I never used the stock master.  I also feel this to be the preferred way to go due to availability, especially slotted and drilled rotors. However, i also have late buick front hubs that accept the BR3/BR51 bearings. This would retain the drum system with tapered bearings. The Roadmaster drums are a safe route and I know they work. However, the hardware is expensive and is getting increasingly harder to find over the counter. Although i have self adjusting drums, the spring kits have been difficult to track and I don't know anyone local that specializes in custom friction material. Three distributors of semi parts either use NAPA fleet shoes or use OEM supplied shoes. Big trucks are also going disc now, too.

 

So I figure I'll give the Scarebird kit another shot the next couple of days. Worst case they do not work and I move back to drums but with tapered bearings. 

 

By the way, if anyone is interested, they do sell the spacers outside their kits. You just need 61 to 72 I believe front hubs. These are always attached to the aluminum drums so they can be expensive unless you find a broken pair in a junkyard. 

 

Semi related, but I have been having brake pressure issues, too. Recently I've had to press the pedal twice in some circumstances to build pressure. I hope this is just air trapped in the lines, though i'm not sure how that could have happened. Wheel cylinders seem fine, but since I got the Roadmaster drums, I've been using the hardware that came with the kit, aka used front hoses. Im hoping I can isolate this issue by doing this disc swap as well. 

 

So many things to do this winter break. Rear axle gaskets are next on the chopping block with my cereal box special gaskets. 

 

Oh! Merry Christmas and happy birthday to me, I also scored a 59 to 60 spin on housing. Say goodbye to the cartridge filter. 

 

I hope everyone has a happy holiday and Merry Christmas! 

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3 hours ago, Beemon said:

Here we are at the crossroads again. 

 

I contacted Scarebird and they shipped me replacement bearing spacers. This is after I noticed grinding noises coming from the front end ball bearings. My originals are pretty much done for, they had sat out and pitted since before I got to the car, back when my grandfather was using the car as a lawn storage and after my uncle put it on jack stands and pulled the hubs and dismantled the engine. I bought replacement National bearings from Rockauto and have been using those instead for a while - they're the ones with the plastic cages. Well, none of them have broken but after pulling the hub today, I've noticed the inner bearings are loose (the inner race can be removed) but the outer bearings are tight (can't remove inner race without force). At one point, the inner bearing outer race had lost its press fit and was free spinning in one hub. How do they get away with selling this junk? 

 

Anyways, this brings us back to the Scarebird spacers. Originally I wanted to use BR5 bearings but their spacers utilize BR51 bearings because the bearing surface is not long enough for the BR5 to sit without flexing on the spindle. I can confirm this is the case. I could chuck the spindle in a lathe, turn down the race surface and press a longer surface onto the spindle, but that's a lot of work. Ball bearings are also known to not play well with radial tires due to their flatter ground contact. 

 

So here's the dilemma. I've heard the stock master cylinder can be used with disk brakes and I still have my original scarebird kit. I ran the calculations with a colleague who has been doing the cockpit control systems, specifically the brakes, and it had been determined it should work fine. When I had originally gone this route, I never used the stock master.  I also feel this to be the preferred way to go due to availability, especially slotted and drilled rotors. However, i also have late buick front hubs that accept the BR3/BR51 bearings. This would retain the drum system with tapered bearings. The Roadmaster drums are a safe route and I know they work. However, the hardware is expensive and is getting increasingly harder to find over the counter. Although i have self adjusting drums, the spring kits have been difficult to track and I don't know anyone local that specializes in custom friction material. Three distributors of semi parts either use NAPA fleet shoes or use OEM supplied shoes. Big trucks are also going disc now, too.

 

So I figure I'll give the Scarebird kit another shot the next couple of days. Worst case they do not work and I move back to drums but with tapered bearings. 

 

By the way, if anyone is interested, they do sell the spacers outside their kits. You just need 61 to 72 I believe front hubs. These are always attached to the aluminum drums so they can be expensive unless you find a broken pair in a junkyard. 

 

Semi related, but I have been having brake pressure issues, too. Recently I've had to press the pedal twice in some circumstances to build pressure. I hope this is just air trapped in the lines, though i'm not sure how that could have happened. Wheel cylinders seem fine, but since I got the Roadmaster drums, I've been using the hardware that came with the kit, aka used front hoses. Im hoping I can isolate this issue by doing this disc swap as well. 

 

So many things to do this winter break. Rear axle gaskets are next on the chopping block with my cereal box special gaskets. 

 

Oh! Merry Christmas and happy birthday to me, I also scored a 59 to 60 spin on housing. Say goodbye to the cartridge filter. 

 

I hope everyone has a happy holiday and Merry Christmas! 

I'll be following....

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4 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

MERRY CHRISTMAS, Ben

   Having to "pump" the brakes is indicative of them needing adjustment..   I will be following.  I always look forward to your adventures.

 

  Ben

 

Hmm, I am wondering if the shoes were getting stuck on the backing plate then or something else? Absolutely zero leaks in the system and im pretty good about bleeding. 

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I found the culprit, passenger side wheel cylinder was leaking. There was quite a bit of fluid seeping out at the back.

 

Also attached is the wheel spacer for the BR51 bearing to ride on. As you can see, there isn't a whole lot there for a spacer and a bearing. Im not sure how the Wilwood kit gets around this but I would figure it's pretty suspect. 

 

Since the wheel cylinder was toast, I figured I would move forward with the disc brake kit. I bought this kit back in 2012 I believe? But I didn't set it up until 2015 where I tried a dual remote master cylinder. It was an awful thing to try and put a dual master cylinder in the stock location and to my defense, it was when I was very naive in both schooling and understanding. So I took them off back in late 2015 after licensing the car and have been using drums since. 

 

Wheel bearings these days are probably the biggest expense for any type of hub rebuild if they're ball bearing type. I bought Nationals in my previous post to replace badly worn originals and as I was pulling the hubs today, I noticed the same race that spun inside another hub was free floating in this different hub. I just couldn't believe it, I figured it was the hub but now I see the bearing race has bad machine tolerances. On the opposite hub, the outer bearing inner race was locked in there right and would not come out without force. The other side was a bit less tight but required some force to remove. The inner bearing inner races both fell out without resistance. Going back to ball bearings was not an option for me. 

 

As I stated earlier, which is now my plan B if anything ever arises again, is to use 1961 to later front hubs that were paired with the aluminum drums. I have a set and I mocked them up, the spacing is perfect. However, I was curious about the kit. I spent this money way back, after all.

 

For the tapered roller bearings, I followed the instructions from a mid 60s shop manual. Tighten to 19 ft lbs while spinning the hub to set preload, then back off and re tighten to 11 ft lbs, then back off to nearest cotter pin hole. This more or less set the nut nearly hand tight

 

First impression was that the brake pedal, when bled, was tight and firm. This was obviously to be expected but now brake feel was instantaneous versus the slight delay with drum brakes (I've been using auto adjusters so I know the adjustment was the best it could be). I live at the top of a steep hill with nothing but a guard rail at the bottom leading to a 30 foot drop. Going down the hill was no problem, so I tried emergency stops. The brakes locked up with no issue at all. The brakes are extremely touchy now, moreso than the drums so it's safe to say they are staying. 

 

Some concerns:

 

First, even though it's worked out on paper (MatLab code) that the stock master cylinder should work, it is still yet to be determined how highway driving will pan out. Remember that this master cylinder was designed and intended to be used with wheel cylinders, where this combination was carried out up to the 70s when discs started to take over. In a similar setup with a 1:1 pedal ratio of the 56 Buick power system, it is equivalent in function to a late 60s 1 inch bore master cylinder with a 4:1 pedal ratio or equivalent. The stock master is also made for low vacuum conditions present with the 56 322 engine. In comparison, disc brake cars of the early 70s and up used a 1.125 inch bore master cylinder. It seems to be looking like the simulation data in terms of functionality so I am not too deeply concerned about it. 

 

Second, the king pin suspension was not designed to take brake dive like a modern car. If you read the 57 shop manual literature, with the ball joints and new front end geometry, the Buick engineers were able to rotate the backing plates 15 degrees to counteract brake dive and rotational inertia. It is yet to be determined how this will affect the 56 kingpins. Though, considering the kingpins are semi solid tubes of steel, I doubt there will be enough twisting forces to damage them or the extra thick A-arms. 

 

Regardless of these two issues, the brake system is phenomenal. A word of caution, I would not use discs with a manual master cylinder, especially with a poor brake pedal ratio. This kit works well specifically because of the power assist and to some lesser degree the bore of the master cylinder. Without that power assist, you're in for a rough time. Drum brakes are self energizing and don't require as much pressure to stop. Of course this relates to linings, etc.

 

Anyways, if I had more money, I would gl with drilled and slotted rotors, which are readily available. The pads I'm using are NAPA's best semi metallic pads.

 

Tomorrow I'll be swapping oil filters. 

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I'll keep it short.. Stay away from drilled and slotted.. Sounds great but in practice not so much..I  can  also tell you highest driving with this set up is no problem 😊 

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