American Rolls Royce (Ghost, PI & PII)

[Peter Zobian]

Alsancle:  Yes, I think Peter Kumar of Gullwing Motor Cars bought it back, and then sold it again.

[alsancle]

Congrats Peter.  Hope you had fun with it while you owned it.

 

At the risk of repeating myself too much,  hard for me to tell what looks better here.  The driver or the Rolls?

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Beauty and the beast.  And you already know my thoughts on the RR, lots of eyeball!  ?

[edinmass]

3 hours ago, alsancle said:

Congrats Peter.  Hope you had fun with it while you owned it.

 

At the risk of repeating myself too much,  hard for me to tell what looks better here.  The driver or the Rolls?

 

My eyes!, My eyes! 

 

Nice car by the way.........didn’t you always want a Ford Model T?

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

Nice car by the way.........didn’t you always want a Ford Model T?

 

I think eventually we will have Model T's.   I was at a local show today,  probably 400 cars and not a single Model T was there, nor any prewar Classics except for a late 30s Lasalle coupe.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Next year bring your dad to the Klingberg show here about an hpur and a half to the south.  75% prewar!

[Peter Zobian]

I wouldn't mind a 1926 T roadster with wire wheels and period speed equipment.

[alsancle]

Speaking of big Al,  here he is next to the "Cadillac" as he kept referring to it.  He was cracking me up.   He has a real bias against anything that won't go at least 90MPH.

[edinmass]

Look at the bright side..........last time I bought a car and called him to see if he knew it because it was local to him in the 1950's...........he finally remembered the car, a 1932 Pierce five passenger sedan, and kept referring to it as the parts car because the top didn't go down. The funny thing was.......he really meant it! In his mind a closed car if for parts to keep the open ones driving. Such was the way of the early hobbiests......... I very much enjoy spending time with "Big Al"!

 

I don't know why Big Al doesn't like cars that won't do 90 mph. When I gave him and your mom a ride in the Murphy, he seemed to get nervous around 75 mph!

Edited June 22, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

Well, you can go 90 in the RR, but perhaps only once   Takes off from a stopsign or stoplight better than anything ever made though  .

[edinmass]

There is a great article written about a customer who complained his PI wouldn’t do the 80 mph the salesmen said it would do. The Springfield factory sent out the head mechanic, and after tweaking it, it hit 80.........flat out, and it was a York. The customer was told let's go for a ride, we have it up to 80. He said to the mechanic, no thanks, your word is fine. The story is published in on of the RR books. I know for sure I wouldn’t want to go faster than 60 in a Springfield car........ever. I’m sure they will do it, but I would scare the hell out of me!

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Or the story about Alan Swift picking his Springfield up from the shop downstate here in CT.  Refusing offer to deliver it, drove back on the highway.  Not sure that car was ever trailered, but I bet he went over 60 quite often, Ed. ?

 

He was a bit of a character.  Showed up at a local show once, a small group gathered around to see the car.  He noticed an audience, looked up at a group of postwar stuff, gestured and said "my God, I thought they burned them all".  Early collector to the core!

[edinmass]

Going over 60 MPH in a Springfield Rolls of any year is possible, but not recommended!

[alsancle]

This car was at Pebble last year and had a very very high dollar restoration on it.  Colors were perfect.  Has door hinges exposed but later features (fenders, lamps, etc).

 

https://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1929-rolls-royce-phantom-i-ascot-tourer-4/

 

[edinmass]

The car was fabulous, colors, wheels, not over restored. Ran great. I have loved the Ascot touring cars since I saw my first one back in 1980.

Edited July 4, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Fourth of July Springfield Rolls Royce road trip along the Atlantic in Southern Florida. Car is running cool in the hot weather. Just a joy to drive on America’s Birthday! 

 

Edited July 6, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

94 in Mass today. Temp in southern FL?

 

I have always loved the prewar RR hood and Radiator.

[alsancle]

This forum has been quiet.   Here is one from a 1975 advertisement that has some real PB potential.

 

 

 

[alsancle]

It is 23 degrees outside here.  Man do I not like the North East anymore.

 

Wonder if this ever sold?  I really like it.  But my buddy who has lots and lots of seat time in both PI and PII Rolls says the I is preferable.

 

[West Peterson]

Looks a little like the PII Barker that my dad owned.

[edinmass]

West, was that a  Continental?

[West Peterson]

Yes. Built for the Brussels motor show, I think January 1932.

[John_Mereness]

Saw this photo - it was described as a chalk board at Brewster to allow potential owners to see their drawings full size.

Edited February 18, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[alsancle]

One of my absolute favorite bodies on the PI is this Hibbard and Darrin transformable:

 

https://hymanltd.com/vehicles/6410-1928-rolls-royce-phantom-i-hibbard-darrin-transformal-phaeton/

 

Hibbard and Darrin’s signature elegance radiates in this car, officially called the Torpedo Transformal Phaeton, built on a Springfield Phantom I chassis, number S 267 FP. Characterized by its low roofline, trapezoidal side windows, and unique B-pillar treatment, this patented design was personally drawn by Darrin. With the top in place, a flap fills the space between the windows to create a B-pillar of sorts, allowing for a weather-tight cabin and a distinct low-slung profile. Lowering the top and side windows gives the car the appearance of a sporting dual-cowl phaeton. The unique styling was by advanced construction techniques. Traditional coachbuilders crafted wooden frames which were then skinned in steel or aluminum. However, Hibbard and Darrin utilized a patented procedure they called “Sylentlite” (silent-light) to build the major body components. The doors, for instance, are one-piece alloy castings, which were not only light but rattle resistant and allowed for tighter tolerances. The remainder of the body is skinned in aluminum alloy to reduce weight.

 

Chassis number S 267 FP is one of fewer than five known Phantom 1 chassis to wear this stylish Hibbard and Darrin coachwork. Subtle differences distinguish them, and this car is considered the sister to a similar example once owned by Marlene Dietrich, gifted to her by Paramount Studios and featured in her 1930 film Morocco. This car share’s the same split, opening windshield design with the Dietrich car, as well as the distinct roof treatment. The ownership history of S 267 FP is well-documented through accompanying Rolls-Royce Owner’s Club records. Sold new in 1928 to A.H. Chapin, it changed hands less than a year later to Bud A. Lipman of New York, New York. Subsequent owners include Clifton Carr and Franklin Lee. In approximately 1945, Mr. Lee sold it for $200 to Hans Hinrichs of St. Louis, MO. Mr. Hinrichs became the first long-term owner, enjoying the beautiful Rolls-Royce with his family for many years. He displayed it at the National Museum of Transportation in St. Louis, which he co-founded. Toward the end of nearly 40 years in the Hinrichs family, it fell into a state of disrepair and required restoration. It then passed to another St. Louis collector and restorer, David Weber in 1982. Both Weber and Mr. Hinrichs’ son still remember the car fondly from its days in St. Louis.

 

It then joined the famed collection at the Imperial Palace in Las Vegas, who commissioned a ground-up, nut and bolt restoration which it wears proudly today. Since the late 1990s, it has been lovingly maintained in a significant collection of Rolls-Royce and Bentley motorcars. Finished in the striking livery of black over red hides and accented with a red-piped black top, this is a stunning example of Hibbard and Darrin’s talent. The beautiful restoration has aged exceptionally well, with exquisite paintwork, high-quality plating and beautiful detailing.

 

The interior is trimmed in the finest materials and opulently appointed in the tradition of the great European coachbuilders. Gorgeous red leather shows a bit of character from occasional use, while the carpets and door panels remain in excellent order. Stunning inlaid woodwork features on the door caps, dash, and division panel. Details include a Swiza clock for the rear compartment and restored instruments and switches in the fascia. The doors have roll-up glass windows to make for a cozy, weather tight driving compartment with the canvas roof in place.

 

Under-bonnet detailing is up to the same exceptional standards, with the engine number 22677 corresponding with the documents provided by the Rolls-Royce Foundation. The 7.7-liter inline six is a beautiful piece of engineering, presented with finely finished castings and black porcelain fittings. Wiring, plumbing, and fixtures are period correct and presented in exceptional condition, revealing the quality of care it has received in the time since the restoration.

 

Only a small percentage of Springfield Phantom I chassis went to anyone other than Brewster, and this marvelous Transformal Torpedo Phaeton is one of only 35 Rolls-Royces bodied by the masters at Carrosserie Hibbard et Darrin. A unique amalgamation of British engineering, American craftsmanship, and Parisian style, this distinguished motorcar is suitable for use in tours or concours events. One of the most desirable open Rolls-Royces of the era, this exquisite example will surely satisfy even the most discerning collector.

 

$495,000

 

[John_Mereness]

It's match

[John_Mereness]

[John_Mereness]

Edited March 29, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[alsancle]

21 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

It's match

The top and body color changed in those photos.   Did she keep it long enough for that?

 

Here it is now.  Not really a fan of the color combo.

 

Edited March 30, 2019 by alsancle (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Green......the color of money, except when you try and sell a car from thr pre war era. 

 

 

OK, there are a few that are able to pull it off, the above car is just ok in green. Why have a fantastic car and do a great restoration and paint the car a color tat doesn’t flatter it? Often times is the owner has lots of cars and is looking for contrast in the collection building.  

Edited March 30, 2019 by edinmass (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

Yes, she apparently owned it long enough for top changes and color changes - plus the car was in a geographic area where such was easier to do (ie if you were not in NYC, Chicago, LA, then such would have been much harder). 

 

When you see it in person the green is actually quite stunning as it has a for lack of a better word has "glitter" in it (I would not call it a metallic, I would call it "specs of glitter"). 

 

The fellow who owned/restored (Richard Mitchell, a Stutz fellow) said it was the original color found during process of restoration (and went to herculean efforts to re-create the glitter effect. 

 

Personally, of all the photos I have seen, I do not find one in what could be interpreted as an exact match to what could be original to what car is now. 

Edited March 30, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[Walt G]

Great Hibbard & Darrin body style, this was also copied and used and mounted on Lincoln model L, Packard , DuPont and Duesenberg chassis to mention a few..

Tom Hibbard was a great fellow and very gracious man who became a friend via correspondence. He had great patience with me in answering my questions.

Dutch Darrin was, well, Dutch Darrin - most flamboyant and full of himself.

A good friend of mine in the Franklin Club grew up in Ca. not far from Darrins shop. Told me he always walked by the shop as a teenager because he liked cars. Anyway, one story he told me mentioned that Darrin always had an eye for the ladies, and if Darrin was sitting in the front of his shop looking out onto the street and with a client discussing building a car and a good looking lady walked by, he would excuse himself from the client with a "be right back" and then go out the front door and catch up with "the skirt" ( my friend who told me the story's description)  that just walked by and try and set up a date with her!  Yes, really.....

I have to many stories from talking to people, designers, etc. of that era that I have met and enjoyed friendships with over the past 50+ years. I have had a few friends urge me to "write all this stuff down dammit" Which I will one day when I am not researching and writing other stories about car designers/builders.

Edited March 30, 2019 by Walt G (see edit history)

[58L-Y8]

Stateside, its my understanding the Hibbard & Darrin licensed Derham to build their Torpedo Transformable Phaeton, which as noted was also mounted on Cadillac 341, Lincoln L, Packard 645, DuPont G and Duesenberg J.  The convertible coupe version also appeared on most of those same fine chassis as well as Pierce-Arrow, even became the basis for their own convertible coupe design.  

 

Yes Mr. Gosden, please write down all the personal stories you've been privy to in conversations and correspondence with well-known designers and coachbuilders, there is an eager and ready audience who would very much like to read them.

[Walt G]

58L-Y8 - thanks for your comment , and PLEASE it is not Mr.Gosden , but Walt !  I taught art to 5 to 12 year old kids for 35+ years ( 1,000 to 1,200 kids per week and Winters even on Saturdays as well) so heard the "Mr. Gosden" more then enough times , and if the student had a question  - to get my attention he would repeat my name over and over ! So , I heard enough of the " Mr. Gosden " title more then I will ever need!😊

 

I wasn't aware of/never saw a photo of the Hibbard & Darrin 4 door convertible with the flap at mid way in the roof area on a Cadillac chassis, thanks for that information.

In the early 1970s most of the body builders, designers etc were still alive and they were in their 70's then. All were most cordial to me ( I was in my early 20's) answering questions , and were pleased that someone my age wanted to know about the art, design and build of cars in the 1920-40 era. I had lunch with Rudy Creteur of Rollston on a regular basis and he was absolutely wonderful to converse with. Austin Clark and I would be at those lunches together as Austin was a great friend and only lived about a dozen miles north of me . 

I also used to help organize the annual luncheon the Franklin Club hosted for former Franklin employees in the early 1970s at a place near Syracuse, NY. More interesting stories , especially those from Leo Gerst who was the chief draftsman at Franklin. I took the time to write to everyone of the former employees and ask questions about their days at the Franklin Company. Have all their replys someplace here. Howard Carey was one of the Franklin test drivers and had amazing stories of how they put the cars to their test to see if there was any weakness in any part. All the tests done on main roads, no test tracks.

Walt

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Walt, I am certain more than a couple folks here would appreciate your recollections of those visits.  It must have been very satisfying to those designers and craftsmen in the 70s to see their work being appreciated on the showfield and marketplace.

[John_Mereness]

A photo I had posted to Facebook 

 

Edited April 1, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[alsancle]

19 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

A photo I had posted to Facebook

New owner happy?

[John_Mereness]

47 minutes ago, alsancle said:

New owner happy?

It went to a very nice fellow on Mainland China - I understand very pleased (it was one of those cars that had always been very well cared for too - makes all the difference in the World).  Very Fashionable Springfield too (love a good looking Club Sedan).

Edited April 1, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

[John_Mereness]

[John_Mereness]