alsancle

American Rolls Royce (Ghost, PI & PII)

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This P1 Towncar was at Pebble and is uber cool.   For sale in Hemmings for 585k.

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/rolls-royce/phantom-i/2316925.html

 

S268KR was delivered new 5-12-33 to its first owner US Army Brigadier General Ephraim Franklin Jeffe, at the Ambassador Hotel in NYC. It is in running order and has around 69,000 actual miles from new. It is certainly one of Joseph Inskip's foremost masterpiece coachwork designs for Brewster & Company. Original paint is flaking but the overall condition is "untouched and original" throughout. It has been housed and hidden away in a private museum for the last 15 years. An extraordinary opportunity to acquire the ultimate US delivery LHD Brewster bodied Towncar built.

 

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68240243-770-0@2X.jpg?rev=1

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One of my favorite cars at Pebble this year. Honest unrestored car. Great style. Fantastic chassis. Was fun looking it over.

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3 hours ago, edinmass said:

One of my favorite cars at Pebble this year. Honest unrestored car. Great style. Fantastic chassis. Was fun looking it over.

 

He has crazy good taste, doesn't he?

 

He also asks crazy money for his stuff.   Given that it has shot the Pebble bullet from the gun,  the price is probably not obtainable.  Especially considering this only brought 280k all in.

 

image.thumb.png.4776bb28ca5334344e185a245506a515.png

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I don't think I have posted this one yet, local car, toured extensively.  I like the Ascot bodies better, but l think whitwalls, if one must have on the big RR cars, kind of work with this nice deep blue.

20190921_105325.jpg

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The Blue P1 is a great car, he runs the wheels off of it.......I bet he has 50k on it in the last few years. He son has a P1 I am very fond of, and I have toured with both cars. 

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Mark Smith's cars are always spectacular, and this one is no exception. He has great taste!

 

Peter Zobian

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The Rolls market stinks.    This car sold for 329K all in at Bonhams Pebble.  

 

What do you think the restoration costs were?   And is 2300 RPM really red line?

 

7,672cc OHV Inline 6-Cylinder Engine
Single Dual-Throat Carburetor
108bhp at 2,300rpm
3-Speed Manual Transmission
4-Wheel Leaf Spring Suspension
4-Wheel Drum Brakes

*Exquisite Hibbard et Darrin Transformal Phaeton coachwork
*One of only 35 Rolls-Royce chassis bodied by the exclusive Parisian Carrosserie
*Beautifully restored and maintained in stunning condition
*Suitable for concours and touring events worldwide

 

 

 

image.png.821744c529a2d593ef47f01cdfdc7733.png

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It's not redline, but the torque drops off at 1800 and the max horsepower is at 2300. 

 

The car is stunning......but needs to have the red piping removed from the top. On this particular car, I would have used painted hubs and rims and run stainless spokes......a more elegant look, but not authentic for a P1.

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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On 10/17/2019 at 8:11 AM, alsancle said:

 

He has crazy good taste, doesn't he?

 

He also asks crazy money for his stuff.   Given that it has shot the Pebble bullet from the gun,  the price is probably not obtainable.  Especially considering this only brought 280k all in.

 

image.thumb.png.4776bb28ca5334344e185a245506a515.png

 

 

 

A car with a value of 375 all day in my book............sad today that people are afraid of them, or just don't understand what a fantastic car a Springfield Rolls is.

 

 

 

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Just seeing this now - wasn't it John Inskip, not Joseph?  does anyone else agree?

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3 hours ago, edinmass said:

It's not redline, but the torque drops off at 1800 and the max horsepower is at 2300. 

 

The car is stunning......but needs to have the red piping removed from the top. On this particular car, I would have used painted hubs and rims and run stainless spokes......a more elegant look, but not authentic for a P1.

 

Agreed on the piping.   What is redline,  3k?

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The power curve falls off fast, if memory serves me, it’s 3100.

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17 hours ago, edinmass said:

The power curve falls off fast, if memory serves me, it’s 3100.

Sounds about right:  RR PI is a whole lot of torque but short an extra gear it needs in transmission and realistically they should not be run over 50 mph (maybe a little faster if you know what you have and willing to fix it if you have a problem).   I drove a friend's 1925 English PI and it has a 4 speed instead of the US version three speed and seemed to be more 55 mph capable. Sidenote:  it will get you to 50 pretty quick though.   Basically, it was meant to go from stoplight to stoplight in town and if you took it on a long trip it was meant to give you dependability verses speed.

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On 12/7/2019 at 9:24 AM, alsancle said:

The Rolls market stinks.    This car sold for 329K all in at Bonhams Pebble.  

 

What do you think the restoration costs were?   And is 2300 RPM really red line?

 

7,672cc OHV Inline 6-Cylinder Engine
Single Dual-Throat Carburetor
108bhp at 2,300rpm
3-Speed Manual Transmission
4-Wheel Leaf Spring Suspension
4-Wheel Drum Brakes

*Exquisite Hibbard et Darrin Transformal Phaeton coachwork
*One of only 35 Rolls-Royce chassis bodied by the exclusive Parisian Carrosserie
*Beautifully restored and maintained in stunning condition
*Suitable for concours and touring events worldwide

 

 

 

image.png.821744c529a2d593ef47f01cdfdc7733.png

I would have expected more +/- 50K on the 500K mark.  And, a maroon edge on the top would have been a better contrast choice than the red - I want to say though the top edge matched the interior. 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)

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Lots of Sprinfield cars coming to market lately.   Here is a Brewster Marlborough towncar on a P1 chassis.  Only one built with a landaulet back.

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/az20/arizona/lots/r0098-1931-rolls-royce-phantom-i-marlborough-town-car-landaulet-by-brewster/839186

 

The Marlborough Town Car was an unusually elegant example of Brewster’s coachwork on the Springfield-built Rolls-Royce Phantom I chassis. Its crisp, dashing lines included front doors that rakishly flowed into the cowl, a predecessor of what would become known as the “Croydon cowl” on certain Phantom IIs, and a relatively low roofline with blind rear quarters. Only 10 examples of the design were built, of which this car, chassis no. S449MR, is believed to have been the only one delivered with a folding landaulet top over the rear compartment.

The build order for the car notes that it was specified in Black and Carmine Lake, as it is finished today. Interestingly, the same document records under Custom Features “paint all lamps, radiator, windshield, mirrorscope, top irons, at my convenience.” It is believed that these items were delivered, as finished today, in gold plate—creating a truly spectacular counterpoint to the dark hues of the Marlborough body. The sum of $21,750 was paid by original owner, John Barry Ryan, son of the great New York industrialist and art collector Thomas Fortune Ryan and himself a successful financier.

A continuous chain of further owners from the early 1950s until the mid-1970s is recorded by the Rolls-Royce Foundation. Flamboyant coal magnate Claude Canada reportedly purchased the car for his collection in 1975. Later it passed to Robert Pond, in whose famed California stable it remained for many years. It has made several memorable “cameo appearances” over the last four decades, including carrying Gloria Swanson in a 1974 television special, Paramount Presents, and center stage in a dance number to “Puttin’ On the Ritz” during the 1984 Miss USA pageant.

Bearing a well-preserved older restoration and well-known, fascinating history, this very special Rolls-Royce is still every bit the dramatic showstopper that it was back in 1931!

RollsMarlboroughTownCar.jpg

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15 hours ago, alsancle said:

Lots of Sprinfield cars coming to market lately.   Here is a Brewster Marlborough towncar on a P1 chassis.  Only one built with a landaulet back.

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/az20/arizona/lots/r0098-1931-rolls-royce-phantom-i-marlborough-town-car-landaulet-by-brewster/839186

 

RollsMarlboroughTownCar.jpg

Spectacular car - needs Trillin tail-lamps, vacuum tank plated,  exhaust wrapped under hood, coils painted, and little stuff - INTERIOR WOODWORK IS FANTASTIC.

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We had a discussion about the Marlborough P1 that sold for nothing in Arizona last week in another thread.  So we should probably keep the prewar Rolls talk here.     This PII Newport is selling at RM Amelia.

 

Attention Ed!!!!   Please tell us why we would prefer the P1 over the PII for driving.  I know you think that but we need to know why!

 

Any thoughts on how this will do?  

 

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/am20/amelia-island/lots/r0066-1933-rolls-royce-phantom-ii-newport-town-car-by-brewster/846328

RollsNewportTownCar.jpg

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On 1/11/2018 at 12:37 PM, John_Mereness said:

Yesterday, I had a Jedi Master formerly from Ned Herman's Vintage Auto in Cincinnati  (one of the top pre-war RR shops of the 60's-early 80's time) help me do some  tuning.  He thought I did not have the right range of mixture off the steering sector (too lean) and readjusted the high speed jet to correct.  And, he preached waiting longer to shift into first to get it out of the garage (for those unfamiliar - the starter drives through the transmission and so when you start it you never push in the clutch pedal - so once started you have a very "active" transmission and you have to let everything in it stop spinning to get it into gear (he said my waiting period was too short and I needed to slowly count to ten plus).  He also preached not an easy car to master shifting with, but when you do master it there is nothing finer.    He also criticized my double clutching - apparently too rushing in the double clutching process too and said to stop trying to "ear" it (keep right foot off accelerator) and to just let it return to idle in process. 

 

Sidenote: Friday 01/11/2018 - Had it out 2nd day in a row - shifted like butter as they say - super sweet !

 

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On 1/11/2018 at 12:37 PM, John_Mereness said:

Yesterday, I had a Jedi Master formerly from Ned Herman's Vintage Auto in Cincinnati  (one of the top pre-war RR shops of the 60's-early 80's time) help me do some  tuning.  He thought I did not have the right range of mixture off the steering sector (too lean) and readjusted the high speed jet to correct.  And, he preached waiting longer to shift into first to get it out of the garage (for those unfamiliar - the starter drives through the transmission and so when you start it you never push in the clutch pedal - so once started you have a very "active" transmission and you have to let everything in it stop spinning to get it into gear (he said my waiting period was too short and I needed to slowly count to ten plus).  He also preached not an easy car to master shifting with, but when you do master it there is nothing finer.    He also criticized my double clutching - apparently too rushing in the double clutching process too and said to stop trying to "ear" it (keep right foot off accelerator) and to just let it return to idle in process. 

 

Sidenote: Friday 01/11/2018 - Had it out 2nd day in a row - shifted like butter as they say - super sweet !

 

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On 1/11/2018 at 12:37 PM, John_Mereness said:

Yesterday, I had a Jedi Master formerly from Ned Herman's Vintage Auto in Cincinnati  (one of the top pre-war RR shops of the 60's-early 80's time) help me do some  tuning.  He thought I did not have the right range of mixture off the steering sector (too lean) and readjusted the high speed jet to correct.  And, he preached waiting longer to shift into first to get it out of the garage (for those unfamiliar - the starter drives through the transmission and so when you start it you never push in the clutch pedal - so once started you have a very "active" transmission and you have to let everything in it stop spinning to get it into gear (he said my waiting period was too short and I needed to slowly count to ten plus).  He also preached not an easy car to master shifting with, but when you do master it there is nothing finer.    He also criticized my double clutching - apparently too rushing in the double clutching process too and said to stop trying to "ear" it (keep right foot off accelerator) and to just let it return to idle in process. 

 

Sidenote: Friday 01/11/2018 - Had it out 2nd day in a row - shifted like butter as they say - super sweet !

My father worked for Ned Herrmann at the Vintage Auto and helped restore the 1929 Rolls Royce Phantom 1 York Roadster. 

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The York your father restored back in 1966 was well done, and for the era nothing better was coming out of any shop in the US. We just did a total frame off restoration on it last year........it didn’t really need it, but we wanted to put it back to the factory colors. Recently it was on the cover of the CCCA magazine. It won most elegant open car at Pebble Beach in August........quite a compliment! And, being born and raised in Springfield........it’s my “home town car” and my favorite car in the collection. I usually don’t post photos, but thought you would like to see his work, then and now. There is nothing better than a Springfield Phantom 1, nothing.

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Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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13 hours ago, AnnK said:

My father worked for Ned Herrmann at the Vintage Auto and helped restore the 1929 Rolls Royce Phantom 1 York Roadster. 

The Jedi Master is great - "Glenn Grismere" and he is still around though in declining health with both Parkinsons and ALS catching up to him (he called Monday late afternoon).  Rod Stryker (Ned's painter) still paints for me.  And Ned Jr. is still around too - they live in Florida I believe.   Glenn was very right in saying I was 'doing it wrong" and to figure out its magic formula and I would be rewarded. 

 

I will give  Ed "EDINMASS" credit too - after continually struggling with shifting the car he brought up issue of my RR PI possibly having a "clutch Brake" on it and that turns out to be exactly what it had (apparently something very few RR PI cars have)  - a whole counter-intuitive mentality of shifting that no one in their wildest dreams thought about (the clutch pedal becomes more of an on-off switch for the clutch with nothing in between the extremes matched to critical shift timing - and NO DOUBLE CLUTCHING NEEDED AT ALL - and, that is when the truly "magic" driving started). 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)

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AJ here is my drive report for a November 1932 built Springfield RR PI "L" Series:

 

 Update: 01/24/2020 - When I say "I" it tends to be a large scale group effort on this car.

 

It took me a while to figure out I had to count to about 30 after starting it before I shifted.  Then, it took me a while to figure out the clutch was either on or off - no in between.  Then, I had to figure out I could not double clutch it and had to shift straight through - which was counter-intuitive for a non sycromesh car of the era (aka as car had a clutch brake on it).   Then, once I figured that out I found I had it running fabulous, but I had to richen it up substantially as there was not enough gas at any speed over idle and especially at speed.   And, I had a ton of problems to work through for a car that probably had 5 miles put on it in 40 years.  

 

The joys were a car that had never seen a speck of rust, a car people had been into for all the right reasons and had kept their hands off it otherwise, low mileage, and you only had to turn the steering wheel 1/2 turn for a full right and 1/2 turn for a full left - I had people in England refere to it as half-point steering and they said few cars had it - dreamy over 10mph, but under ten I did not have the strength.    Also, incredibly comfortable seats and seating position, albeit you had to be somewhat a monkey to get in and out - suicide front doors only helped a little, but did help.   Also, very nice it had glove boxes and also a toolbox under front seat, but thank god it had a luggage trunk as again a  huge car with no place to put anything. 

 

As to faults:  A complicated car by even today's standards (must have been mind blowing complicated when new) and massive, plus via that close coupled coachwork you could really see nothing out of the back of it (lots of glitzy mirrors though that allowed seeing nothing).  Also, short top end speed - needed another gear in the gearbox, but IMPRESSIVE torque and could get you up to speed quick.  

 

Would I recommend one ?  Yes I would, though it is a car that owns you verses you owning it and you have to be patient, know how to write a check, and be handy (even if someone is working on it for you). 

 

Impressive stature on it - most people do not realize the size of the engine - just as with a Dusenberg it is chest height and really long, with a ton of aluminum and little polished trinkets. As to engineering - I would say complicated in a different way than a Duesenberg and as a result actually a more sophisticated product. 

 

Update:  Brakes - the car has 20" wheels and brakes drums must have almost 18" +/-  - servo assist off transmission and they pulsate in a primitive version of ABS,  teh Brake drums are steel and finned - I loved that they were turned and you could see the turning marks.  And they are spectacular, though I assume do have fade upon extreme usage.   And, whoever say 20's and 30's cars do not stop have never been in a RR - THEY STOP !!!

 

Further Update: Electrical = Westinghouse (I believe) and more so on the commercial than automotive side - pretty impressive and the wiring I believe is Westinghouse too - also commercial side. 

 

Further-Further Update: Also, no die cast other than the windshield wiper - everything is brass, bronze, steel, aluminum, German silver, or ...

 

Further-Further-Further Update: The vacuum system is good too for fuel delivery - there is a tank on the firewall that holds perhaps 1.5 gallons and the tank is 22 gallons I believe.  There is a dual pick-up mechanism (many people think two tanks with one being a reserve, but it is a high and a low pick up - allowing you clean gas without contaminates from bottom of tank (unless you have a gas emergency).   Perhaps the only advantage would have been the ability to prime the vacuum tank - obviously, a 7.6 Litre engine creates enough vacuum to pull from tank when system is dry, but ...

 

Also:  When people say production ended in 1931 and remaining cars were built from parts - Yes, I would agree as mostly correct, though this particular car has 11/1932 casting dates on most key parts, as well as original numbering on every part (ie. largely a "new construction" car). This car being built for their Steel supplier, I would guess this was a mercy purchase to keep them in business. 

 

I am going to stick with 35-36 Auburns for the moment.  Ed, had me thinking about a 1931 Pierce Arrow Series 42 Berline Club Sedan though.  A couple people keep preaching a Cord L-29 Brougham for me and a couple more a 1932 Franklin Club Sedan.  JCNA friends say I need a XK150 Drophead.  And, ...

 

29572882_10156454165462189_2440925655986479070_n.thumb.jpg.0b62f48f6ff1a1c8d9bcfe43b0119a14.jpg

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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