Mechanical fuel pumps and ethanol

[Bloo]

Is anyone making mechanical fuel pumps with a diaphragm compatible with ethanol? I bought an ethanol compatible kit for my Pontiac from Then and Now Automotive, and that is working out great so far. I now need one for a Ford 390-2v, and it is the crimped together non-rebuildable style. Then and Now cant do anything with this type of pump.

 

There are several brands available, but the technical data is a bunch of marketing jargon. I dug pretty deep online when I looked last fall, hoping to find some real data on ethanol compatibility.  I didn't get anywhere.

 

As of today the brands available on Rock Auto are Spectra Premium, Airtex, Delphi, and Carter.

 

The pump I have is 20 years old. I suspect it is not ethanol compatible. It still works, but is off of the car. Thoughts?

[Guest]

This man rebuilds them, excellent service, product and price.

Hal Houghton
President
The Classic Preservation Coalition
http://www.classicpreservation.com
houghton@classicpreservation.com
518-374-5078

[Bloo]

Thanks for the response! I was not aware of him. But it still looks as though I will still have to buy a new one, at least if an ethanol-compatible one is available. If not I guess I'll take my chances with the current one and see how long it lasts.

 

His website says: "Please note that I restore AC, Blackstone, Carter, and Stewart-Warner mechanical, screw-together pumps. I do not restore electric pumps, or factory-sealed fuel pumps."

 

This is a factory-sealed crimped together pump.

 

 

 

 

[ply33]

48 minutes ago, Bloo said:

The pump I have is 20 years old. I suspect it is not ethanol compatible. It still works, but is off of the car. Thoughts?

 

Pump is from about 1997? If it was new then as opposed to having been on the shelf a while and simply sold then, there is a reasonable chance it will stand up to modern gasoline.

 

7 minutes ago, Bloo said:

Thanks for the response! I was not aware of him. But it still looks as though I will still have to buy a new one, at least if an ethanol-compatible one is available. If not I guess I'll take my chances with the current one and see how long it lasts.

 

With a spare in the trunk, I'd take my chances with the original one too.

[PFitz]

Alcohol has been mixed in USA gasoline since the 1980's ( as part of Jimmy Carter's national energy program). The problems for antique autos with it turned up quickly and one result was alcohol resistant gas tank sealers came out back then. Shortly there after, so did changes in fuel pump diaphragm materials,.... so it's very possible your 1990's factory pump is OK with it.

 

Paul 

Edited July 21, 2017 by PFitz (see edit history)

[Bloo]

7 minutes ago, ply33 said:

 

Pump is from about 1997? If it was new then as opposed to having been on the shelf a while and simply sold then, there is a reasonable chance it will stand up to modern gasoline.

 

It was last changed in the late 90s sometime, maybe as late as 2000, and wasn't any sort of NOS/NORS, just a new pump from the parts store, most likely NAPA. The current manufacturers aren't giving very good clues about what if anything they have done to address the issue.  Airtex at least adressed it;

 

"Airtex mechanical fuel pumps are designed to meet or exceed OEM specifications for fit and performance. Precision castings and hardened rockers help ensure a long life. Advanced polymer pump diaphragms help ensure consistent performance in multiple fuel blends."

 

That sounds like marketing jargon, but at least they mentioned "multiple fuel blends"

 

 

 

 

[Bloo]

16 minutes ago, PFitz said:

Alcohol has been mixed in USA gasoline since the 1980's ( as part of Jimmy Carter's national energy program). The problems for antique autos with it turned up quickly and one result was alcohol resistant gas tank sealers came out back then. Shortly there after, so did changes in fuel pump diaphragm materials,.... so it's very possible your 1990's factory pump is OK with it.

 

Paul 

 

This is what I read back in the 1980s in some oil industry publication. At that time the word was that any gasoline available contained Ethanol, Methanol, or MTBE, or some combination of the three in concentrations up to 10%. They tried to keep Methanol content down because of corrosion problems. This was how they got the octane up without lead, which was, at the time, limited to 1/10th of a gram per gallon, and it was only good for about 1/2 or 3/4 of an octane point. You could expect super unleaded to be at the full 10%.

 

In the time since then, I understand MTBE has been banned in California, and I don't think it is used in WA where I live  anymore either. 10% alcohol should be nothing new. The implication is that gas has not changed that much, yet today suddenly everyone is having problems and screaming about it. I wonder what changed?

Edited July 21, 2017 by Bloo
typo (see edit history)

[PFitz]

1 hour ago, Bloo said:

 

This is what I read back in the 1980s in some oil industry publication. At that time the word was that any gasoline available contained Ethanol, Methanol, or MTBE, or some combination of the three in concentrations up to 10%. They tried to keep Methanol content down because of corrosion problems. This was how they got the octane up without lead, which was, at the time, limited to 1/10th of a gram per gallon, and it was only good for about 1/2 or 3/4 of an octane point. You could expect super unleaded to be at the full 10%.

 

In the time since then, I understand MTBE has been banned in California, and I don't think it is used in WA where I live  anymore either. 10% alcohol should be nothing new. The implication is that gas has not changed that much, yet today suddenly everyone is having problems and screaming about it. I wonder what changed?

 

 

Not just today - the changes came many years ago. Thanks to the internet, those in the "hobby" are just catching up to what those of us in the professional restoration business have been dealing with alcohol related fuel problems for about thirty years now.

 

Back in the 80's many antique owners (myself included) were finding their carbs and fuel pumps filled with a sticky, yellow mess that used to be the gas tank sealer. Alcohol in the gas was partially dissolving the properly dried sealer so that it traveled into the down-stream fuel system. On opening fuel bowls and pumps, it looked more like something that should be floating around in a lava lamp !  Not long after that old fuel pumps, and rebuild kits of that era, started having diaphragm leaks.

 

It's been over 20 years since I've talked with Tom Hannaford, at "Then and Now " (called the Antique Auto Parts Cellar back then )  about, how he had to deal with the fuel problems by finding and replacing the diaphragm material in his fuel pump rebuilding kits. I've not had any problems with his kits since he changed over to alcohol resistant diaphragms all those many years ago (same with Bill Hirsch changing his gas tank sealer from the original yellow to white alcohol resistant sealer way back then)..

 

Paul  

[cahartley]

Having just purchased a '32 Chevy Confederate high on my list of priorities was putting new, ethanol compatible, kits in the fuel pump and carb as I had no idea if that had already been done.

Upon taking the apart the fuel pump I found the diaphragm to be in perfect shape despite having 20 year old gas in it.

Upon removal of the carburetor accelerator pump plunger the piston packing was in good working order as well showing no signs of breaking down despite having sat in the same gas over the same time frame.

At least I now KNOW what's there so I don't get any nasty surprises.

[PFitz]

One way to avoid alcohol related fuel problems is do a search for "e-free" gas. Many of the gas stations here in CNY have switched over to 91 octane that has no alcohol in it. About 50 cents more a gallon than regular, but no other expense from the alcohol, and the water it absorbs, affecting the steel and brass parts of fuel systems.

 

Paul

[Bloo]

Thank you everyone for the responses!. I guess I will put the old one back on.