mbenseignant@gmail.com Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I am trying to take out slack between the worm and the worm wheel. Later cars and later manuals show that a narrow wrench was inserted on the outside (body side) of the steering box to turn the eccentric bearing belonging to the worm wheel. But I don't think my car is like that. There is not enough bearing sticking out to grab with anything, and it doesn't seem hex anyway. When I remove the cover (engine side) there is this cam-shaped thing seemingly acting as the bearing for the worm wheel. Should that be turned? I don't know what I would grab it with, given that there is little space between engine and box. Also, I don't see where I am to loosen a lock before twisting. Second photo is a 1916 manual (my earliest). My steering box is somewhat different. It looks like one single cast box housing the worm all the way to the steering lever. An early design? Maybe not even Dodge? If I had the answers, I would not be posting here. Help and advice appreciated! Mike Barnes, Vancouver, Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyAus Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 Not sure about your steering box. It appears to use a worm and sector rather than a worm and wheel as illustrated from 1916 on. Perhaps this was a 1915 only feature? Adjustment of the later box is secured by rotation of the eccentric wheel shaft bush (the bit that hangs out behind the pitman arm). I can only assume that your earlier box lacks this adjustment and the sector shaft runs in a plain parallel bush or just an unbushed hole in the case. You should try pulling the sector out and checking the condition of its shaft, the bush if any, and/or the bearing surface in the case. Correction of wear by building up the sector shaft/replacing the bush/reboring and bushing the case should restore the correct mesh of the worm and sector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbenseignant@gmail.com Posted July 21, 2017 Author Share Posted July 21, 2017 There is a whole wheel, but I only photographed a bit at the top right. Any ideas about that cam? Just holding the wheel in place? Your suspicion may be right that this is a plain bushing or no bushing. I guess the steering box will have to come right off to check. Or I can put up with the slack a while longer. Thanks, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyAus Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 I notice that the cam has a boss on one side. Is this retained in one or more positions by the steering box cover or just to limit the steering lock? Perhaps the shaft is eccentric to the wheel. Another method to remove slack is to rotate the wheel so that unworn teeth bear on the worm - that could be your only adjustment. In any event its probably better to pull the steering box - no big deal - just remove the steering shaft bolts and pull back the steering wheel, take off the pitman arm and unbolt the box from the chassis rail. All may be revealed than. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyAus Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 Further thoughts. The cam is probably a stop to limit the steering lock in each direction. If the shaft and wheel are in one piece it may not be possible to rotate the wheel to introduce unworn teeth. If you're lucky the shaft may be a splined or squared fit in the wheel, allowing relative rotation. Another source of play could be wear in the top and bottom worm bushes. Again, disassembly should reveal the facts of the matter. Must stop thinking - its dangerous............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 Is that (chassis) grease in the box? It should probably NOT be grease because it is wiped off the worm and doesn't flow back. It should be a semi-fluid grease = very thick oil that will gradually flow back onto the worm.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 Looking at the manual diagrams, it looks pretty similar to adjust this to my 1930 Dodge 8. The "Worm Adjusting Nut" is to adjust the worm bearings so the worm doesn't move up and down. The set screw is just to stop the nut coming loose. The "Worm Wheel Shaft Thrust Screw" is used to adjust the depth of engagement of the wheel with the worm. As the system wears, you push the wheel further into the worm. Eventually it cannot be adjusted any more. Those are the only adjustments. The other things that affect slack are the bearings the worm wheel shaft rides in and the bearings of the worm. TonyAus has talked about those things. Wear outside the steering box can also give you slack at the wheel. The Steering Lever might be a tiny bit loose on the shaft (a spline?). The ball joints may be worn etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyAus Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 23 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said: Is that (chassis) grease in the box? It should probably NOT be grease because it is wiped off the worm and doesn't flow back. It should be a semi-fluid grease = very thick oil that will gradually flow back onto the worm.. Correct in normal circumstances but the facrory instruction is to lubricate with graphite grease. I doubt whether the original DB steering box is sufficiently sealed to retain the usual heavy oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 (edited) I had a thought later that if you have a full worm wheel like the manual shows, perhaps you can remove the cover over the worm wheel (the one with the thrust screw in it) and the steering lever or arm, pull the wheel out a bit and put it back in rotated 60° to use a less worn part of the wheel engaging the worm. If that is possible, I imagine it has been done before now. I am saying 60° because I am guessing lock to lock is about 60°. Easy to find out: support the front of the car and observe the angle the steering arm goes through, lock to lock. Do you think the lock control is in the steering box rather than at the wheel? I ask because my 1930 has the stops at the king pins. EDIT. The parts book shows the same worm wheel part number up to car number 330598, which is in the 1916-23 number range. So the manual drawing might be fairly representative of what you have. Edited July 22, 2017 by Spinneyhill (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
22touring Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 "From November 14, 1914 (when the DB entered production) until September 18, 1915 the DB used an irreversible nut and sector type steering gear. This was now replaced by a worm and wheel type." Don Butler, "Good Enough Is Not Acceptable", Cars and Parts magazine. April, 1979, page 50. The worm and wheel type is commonly known as "the DB steering box", and continued to be installed until car no. A699956 in late June of 1926, when DB began installing the Gemmer box. So I am thinking maybe the original poster has the early steering gear that was used between November 1914 and September 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, 22touring said: "From November 14, 1914 (when the DB entered production) until September 18, 1915 the DB used an irreversible nut and sector type steering gear. Anyone got a diagram of how that worked? It sounds like the nut ran up and down the worm and the sector engaged with teeth on the nut. Perhaps the later "recirculating ball" arrangement was a development of this idea? Perhaps Mike (the OP) will be inspecting it to determine what can be done and will post a photo or two? Please? Edited July 23, 2017 by Spinneyhill (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
22touring Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 I'm not sure about this, but doesn't the Master Parts List, 9th edition, have a diagram of the nut and sector type steering box at page 317? Let me know if I'm wrong about this, or if you would like me to scan and post the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted July 23, 2017 Share Posted July 23, 2017 There's a phantom drawing of the '14-'early '15 steering box in the Preliminary Book of Information. It is very different then the late '15-'16 box. From the original picture I can't tell if that is what Mike has or not. A serial number would help. IF it is a copy of the Preliminary Book of Info can be gotten from the AACA library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, 22touring said: I'm not sure about this, but doesn't the Master Parts List, 9th edition, have a diagram of the nut and sector type steering box at page 317? Let me know if I'm wrong about this, or if you would like me to scan and post the picture. I have the Final Edition, issued May 1, 1934. The earliest steering box shown is DA. Yes, please scan the picture. Edited July 24, 2017 by Spinneyhill (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
22touring Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 (edited) Do you think this is the early box? The only title on the page is "Steering Gear". The following two pages show pictures of the DB box and the Gemmer box, which makes me think that this is probably the early one. Edited July 24, 2017 by 22touring (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted July 24, 2017 Share Posted July 24, 2017 That looks like the early box, but there's at least two versions of it that I have seen. I think the cam on the outside of the frame adjusts the sector to and from the piece called the nut in this picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbenseignant@gmail.com Posted August 3, 2017 Author Share Posted August 3, 2017 It is much much closer to the illustration supplied by 22touring. I am on holiday with limited internet and away from car. I want to thank everybody very much for support. Will be puzzling over it in a week or so! Cheers, Mike in Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbenseignant@gmail.com Posted May 7, 2018 Author Share Posted May 7, 2018 Turns out I have the 1915 steering box, which is pretty unadjustable. Does anybody have a slightly newer box (adjustable) they would like to sell? Thanks, Mike Barnes, Vancouver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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