old-tank

Carburetor: WCFB 2197S idle problems

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On my last road trip the carb started having problems:  very slow idle and rough sounding exhaust.  Turning the passenger side idle screw had no effect; turning the driver side increase drpm a little when turned out richer.  To get home I increased the idle speed.  Now the exhaust still sounds rough and stinks, but driveability was fair and we made it home.  Something is apparently plugged in the idle circuit on that side.  The carb was last rebuilt 30 years ago and 115K miles.   Do I rebuild or just fix what is broken?  Other than the idle problem everything works as expected with good driveablilty even on E-10 fuel with good as expected economy (16mpg)...that is why is has not been touched in so long.  Too many times I have made things worse with too much tinkering.

Rebuild?

Repair?

 

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In this century, the first thing I would do is put in a new condenser. AND, if I had a used, known good one, I would put that in before a new one.

 

On carburetors. in the last 20 years, only since 1997 or so, The only carburetor plugging I have experienced is from spider bodies on cars that sat around.

 

I don't run filters sometimes, I buy Mobil gas at the same place all the time. Yesterday I was addressing a drip on my Packard carb. When I took the bowl cover off I found the bottom full of silt after a cleaning 3 years ago that I did. That is the only dirty carb, in use, that I have seen in a couple of decades. It is also the only car that had the tank "professionally" removed and cleaned at a noted Rochester, New York restoration shop by the previous owner. The last owner had about $3,000 worth of service done by a "professional" and the only thing I can figure is that they were sending him the message "Don't bring your car back. It is not the quality we want in our shop." They could have just told him and sent it home. Poor job on everything they did.

 

And the fuel gauge doesn't work. I bet it did before they dropped the tank. "48 Packards  use a different type of gauge.

 

Anyway, put a known good condenser in the old tank first, Old Tank.

Bernie

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In this century, the first thing I would do is put in a new condenser. AND, if I had a used, known good one, I would put that in before a new one.

 

On carburetors. in the last 20 years, only since 1997 or so, The only carburetor plugging I have experienced is from spider bodies on cars that sat around.

 

I don't run filters sometimes, I buy Mobil gas at the same place all the time. Yesterday I was addressing a drip on my Packard carb. When I took the bowl cover off I found the bottom full of silt after a cleaning 3 years ago that I did. That is the only dirty carb, in use, that I have seen in a couple of decades. It is also the only car that had the tank "professionally" removed and cleaned at a noted Rochester, New York restoration shop by the previous owner. The last owner had about $3,000 worth of service done by a "professional" and the only thing I can figure is that they were sending him the message "Don't bring your car back. It is not the quality we want in our shop." They could have just told him and sent it home. Poor job on everything they did.

 

And the fuel gauge doesn't work. I bet it did before they dropped the tank. "48 Packards  use a different type of gauge.

 

Anyway, put a known good condenser in the old tank first, Old Tank.

Bernie

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Oh, I didn't have a known good one to swap in so I drove the 10 miles to the next town and got an Echlin at NAPA, only ignition parts I use anymore.

B

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I just had a similar problem in my '65 Skylark, but it was intermittent.  I finally pulled the lid, removed the primary venturi cluster (it's an AFB), blew out all passages, and put everything back together with the same gaskets.  Problem solved (for now anyway).  I'd make sure I had some gaskets on hand, but it doesn't take too long to partially disassemble the likely suspects and clean them up.  Heck, you might get away with blowing a little compressed air through the idle needle port in the carb.

Edited by Aaron65 (see edit history)

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Plus one to blowing compressed air through the passage. If there's one thing I learned from all you guys, it's KISS.

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Obviously, the main system circuits are working, so the issue is with the idle circuit only.  If the WCFB is like newer Carters, I'd remove the venture cluster and soak it in carb cleaner for a while, then finish cleaning it with compressed air and possibly some solvent (for good measure).  After that, I'd find a bent-wire spark plug gage and probe the bottom of the idle tubes (the solid ones of the set) and see what the "low speed jet" size might be, starting with the smallest diameter on the tool.  Then progress to larger sizes until they won't fit any more.  IF the initial hole size keeps getting bigger, then that's where the blockage was.  When you get to the largest size that will still go in, then use that for a guide to purchase a set of twist drill bits.  Then with that selection of bits, use them to ream/clean the tubes until you "get brass".  Then wash and reinstall the venture cluster.  Adjust the carb idle to desired specs.  Enjoy!

 

Verifying "flow" with spray carb cleaner will just prove that the passage is open and NOT the size of the passage.  It can still be open and of a too small size, which is why the bits are needed to mechanically remove the hard deposits the carb cleaner would not remove.  Intent is to just clean, NOT enlarge the holes!

 

NTX5467

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I am not a carburetor expert by any means, but the first thing I would do in the future is stop using Ethonol (or as some refer to it, Deathonol).  I have 4 vintage cars and I have had to replace the fuel pumps on all of them.  The Ethonol destroyed the innards.  I also had an in-line fuel filter on my '55 Buick whose baffle was destroyed by Ethonol.  Even our farm equipment (weed whackers, lawn mowers, etc.) have had parts chewed up by Ethonol.  Now I only use non-Ethonol in my vintage cars.  Do an Internet search on Pure-Gas.  It is a great site for locating non-Ethonol gas stations near you.  They even have an app you can install on your cell phone. 

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1 hour ago, packick said:

I am not a carburetor expert by any means, but the first thing I would do in the future is stop using Ethonol (or as some refer to it, Deathonol).  I have 4 vintage cars and I have had to replace the fuel pumps on all of them.  The Ethonol destroyed the innards.  I also had an in-line fuel filter on my '55 Buick whose baffle was destroyed by Ethonol.  Even our farm equipment (weed whackers, lawn mowers, etc.) have had parts chewed up by Ethonol.  Now I only use non-Ethonol in my vintage cars.  Do an Internet search on Pure-Gas.  It is a great site for locating non-Ethonol gas stations near you.  They even have an app you can install on your cell phone. 

Agreed, but no real gas available locally for me and on my recent trip, I found only one station with real gas that was 50 cents higher than E10...I declined since one tank will not make a difference.

Bernie, thanks for the condenser recommendation, but no joy.  Carb comes off soon.

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Going on 15 years without fuel injector failure or rubber house failure using ethanol in a 2002 Jeep. Not sure where the ethanol stigma comes from. If the system is updated to ethanol resistance, as it should, then there is no problem. Not saying ethanol isn't corrosive, but it's not the end if you plan accordingly. 

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The only rubber in the fuel injection fuel systems is probably in the pressure regulator  That was the first thing I had to replace on my then-low-mileage 2005 Impala after I got it 3.5 years ago.  The fuel lines are plastic (and have been for about 20 years, for example.  The fuel tanks are plastic, too.  There are sometimes flex hoses under the hood to interface the chassis lines and the engine lines.  Seal O-rings would be rubber, too, as would fuel injector seals (where they seal against the cylinder head and fuel rail).  The fuel injectors, still metallic in nature, seem to last a looooong time, even the TBI injectors.

 

You CAN de-ethanolize gasoline if you want to go to the trouble, 5 or 10 gallons at a time, but the resulting gasoline will have less octane if that matters.  I believe the pure-gas website has how to do it somewhere in it?

 

Ethanol can cause issues, but I somewhat suspect that many of the issues that are blamed on it might well be normal deterioration that got hastened by the cleaning action of ethanol?  I concur that it's prudent to do fuel system upgrades for greater ethanol tolerance.  With ethanol'd fuel blends, fuel pumps have become maintenance items, as oil filters and spark plugs already were, to me.  Same with any rubber fuel lines, especially the ones at the fuel tank sending unit area (unseen).

 

Enjoy!

NTX5467

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Every once in a while I'll pour in a half a tank of 100+ octane Av gas.  It cleans everything out and perks up the engine.

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Neat products!  Question is how do they eliminate water and prevent phase separation at the same time?  There's got to be some alcohol in there somewhere, but not ethanol.

 

Just curious . . . 

NTX5467

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Removed the carb and disassembled.  Nothing remarkable noted except there was some sort of sticky substance in one of the low speed jets (might be the source of the problem, but what is it and where did it come from) and one of the metering rods was bend and was rubbing on the main jet (not likely to cause the idle problem).  And other than a tiny bit of silt in the corners it was like new inside.  Even the gaskets released without tearing, accelerator pump was fine, gas line had pressure after sitting for 2 days.  

Anyone with a junk 2197S WCFB that can donate some main jets and metering rods?

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Willie, I know of a yard here that has a 2197 that's frozen solid. I am not sure the condition of the carb, but I'll see. I'm not sure if I'm banned from that yard or not because the last time I was there he had the 56 up in the air and was trying to get $400 for a short block...

 

The 1406 is a pretty reliable mod. However, lack of gas pedal start is disheartening.  I have some plans drawn up that include pipe fitting, 1/2" ID pipe, a 1/2" ball bearing,  1/2" drill bit, 1/8" flat stock, a tap, rod and arm... still working on it, but it would bolt on aft the carb at the driver rear stud.

Edited by Beemon (see edit history)
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Did you ever figure out what the sticky stuff was? 

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7 minutes ago, Beemon said:

Did you ever figure out what the sticky stuff was? 

Goo

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