Stage 3's - The Blackhawk - Buick whoops Chevy's and other ramblins

[old-tank]

2 hours ago, RivNut said:

My 63 came with the same shocks and sticker. 401 nailhead and a Dynaflow. No piddly boat behind mine;  a full sized Airstream.  No holes in the bumper either. A full hitch reliever welded to the frame, electric trailer brakes, and a tyranny cooler.  PO stepped up to a 3.91 rear gear.

A buddy borrowed his brother's car equipped like that, but not to tow trailers.  It was used to beat up on 4 speed 409's....in drive... with a car load of dumb kids.  Using Low would fry the tires for a block.

[countrytravler]

On 4/10/2017 at 8:08 AM, old-tank said:

A buddy borrowed his brother's car equipped like that, but not to tow trailers.  It was used to beat up on 4 speed 409's....in drive... with a car load of dumb kids.  Using Low would fry the tires for a block.

I have had dozen 409s and only Buick that would come close was a stage 3 Buick Skylark. Good times!! This was one of my 409s that I owned in 68. It was a 409-400 4 speed. Heck of a car to own at 16 years old. It would bury the speedo in 3rd gear.

Edited July 8, 2017 by countrytravler (see edit history)

[Brad Conley]

Beautiful Chevy.  But one question.  What is a Stage 3 Buick?

[countrytravler]

On 6/9/2017 at 6:44 PM, Brad Conley said:

Beautiful Chevy.  But one question.  What is a Stage 3 Buick?

Google it. All kinds of info on a GX Stage 3. They were very fast. It was anybody's race when I raced a couple. They were very deceiving. 

 

Edited July 8, 2017 by countrytravler (see edit history)

[Brad Conley]

9 hours ago, countrytravler said:

Goodle it. All kinds of info on a GX Stage 3. They were very fast. It was anybody's race when i raced a couple. They were very deceiving. 

 

 

.  Sorry.  No such animal.  Stage 1 was factory produced, Stage 2 was over the counter only.  There were plans for a Stage 3, but the only thing that ever came of that was a few experimental blocks (4 bolt mains) produced.  Never factory installed (either Stage 2 or Stage "3").

 

I happen to co-own (with Duane Heckman and Mark Reeves) one of the experimental 4 bolt main blocks that survives to this day.  They were given to a select few racers back in the day, according to Denny Manner, the Buick Engineer that developed them.

 

Still a real nice Chevy...my aunt had a 65 SS convertible.  Aqua, white top and white guts.  Beautiful car.  Sadly, only a 283/powerglide.

[countrytravler]

My dad worked in the Hi Performance Dept at the GM Tech Center in Warren MI. from the 50s to 70s. We had Zorro and Delorian wrenching on the cars in our driveway. They were my dads drinking bodies when they would race on Woodward back when. Dad would bring a muscle car home on the weekends to street race and he had to report the results. And not only GM either. He would bring home all other makes. He would take me and a friend to go racing so I was the most popular kid on the block. Dad would bring home EX parts to install into the kid's car in the neighborhood. These were the cars that would give me grief, 440 6 pack, Z28, Ram Air Goats, LS6, L88s and some 442s. My 65 09 had the best of the best because of my dad's connections at the tech center. Dad also prep the cars for the magazines to do their articles.This was a 8 sec 62 409 that was built in 80.

 

Buick Stage-3

– 1970, then 2001
– over the counter package, then in the Blackhawk concept
– 455 C.I.D.
– 463hp/510tq.
– 13.5:1 compression ratio
– 4-bolt mains

Edited July 8, 2017 by countrytravler (see edit history)

[countrytravler]

On 6/10/2017 at 7:39 AM, Brad Conley said:

 

.  Sorry.  No such animal.  Stage 1 was factory produced, Stage 2 was over the counter only.  There were plans for a Stage 3, but the only thing that ever came of that was a few experimental blocks (4 bolt mains) produced.  Never factory installed (either Stage 2 or Stage "3").

 

I happen to co-own (with Duane Heckman and Mark Reeves) one of the experimental 4 bolt main blocks that survives to this day.  They were given to a select few racers back in the day, according to Denny Manner, the Buick Engineer that developed them.

 

Still a real nice Chevy...my aunt had a 65 SS convertible.  Aqua, white top and white guts.  Beautiful car.  Sadly, only a 283/powerglide.

I always loved these Buicks. Love the one you pictured. Had a 64 Skylark Convertible with the aluminum 300 V8 that ran 14s in 69. Mine was a lighter green than the one pictured. I have had about hundred muscle cars in my time. Love my life in the car world section.

Edited June 21, 2017 by countrytravler (see edit history)

[Brad Conley]

The car pictured is my car.  I've owned it since 1978.  It is the factory show car (Prototype) for the GSX series and sold to Len Immke Buick in Columbus, Ohio at the conclusion of its use by Buick.  The photo depicted is my car, sitting on a turntable, at the 1970 New York International Auto Show.    Mr. Immke owned many such show cars over the years, this is not the only one to "escape" into the wild.  I have been involved with Performance Buick's all of my life (59 years and counting).  While this may not be as many years as you have accumulated, I assure you I know of what I speak.

 

I have spoke at length with Denny Manner, the powertrain engineer that developed the Stage 1, Stage 2 and the Stage "3" 4 bolt main block.  Again, according to Denny, the Stage "3" 4 bolt main was only give to certain racers and NEVER AVAILABLE OVER THE COUNTER OR FACTORY ASSEMBLY LINE INSTALLED.  It was, so to speak, a "Skunk works" project, completed during lunch hours in the Powertrain Engineering Department at Buick.  This is direct from "the horse's mouth", so to speak. There were less than 10 of these Experimental Block's produced by Buick back in the day.  I am not meaning to call you out, but you just can't believe everything you read on the internet.  I know the statements I have presented to be factual and direct from the person's involved with the projects directly and not from Google.  Again, you just can't rely on everything you see/read on the internet.  Inaccurate information is presented as fact all the time.  The sources you cite are inaccurate in both horsepower and torque including the "fact" they cite that the Stage 3 was produced and installed in the Buick Blackhawk Showcar by Buick.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  TA Performance, of Phoenix, AZ, designed and built the powertrain for for Blackhawk.  Buick hired TA Performance to develop  the powertrain for the Blackhawk.  TA Performance built the engine and delivered it to the designer/builder of the Blackhawk...Buick just paid the bill.

 

Those are the facts, from those involved with the various projects.  Google is just an assimilation of various posts on the internet.  You can never take anything Googled as fact.

[countrytravler]

The only thing that I Googled was the stage 3.  I did not google the stage three until you ask my source. I new about the stage 3 because of my dad brought one home and we raced with my 65. That is why I know how they ran. It ran strong for a 4k car.I did not follow the Buick history. My passion is the 348-409 era along with the LT1 and L88 along with the ZL1 and the Z28 302. Also played with the Pontiac 421 SD and the OHC 6 Sprint in the Pontiacs. I'm not an expert in Buick by no means. But I remember my dad with the engineers playing with these and the Z11s along with the 427 Mystery Motor in 63. Your car is over the hill. One of the Finest Examples that I have seen ever I think. Here is my 1st ground up resto that I did. 62 SS 409-409 4 speed. I raced this car regularly.

[BUICK RACER]

 

[RivNut]

1 hour ago, BUICK RACER said:

 

Those of us in the ROA who attended the annual event entry in Eureka Springs, AR in 2005 were fortunate enough to see the Blackhawk up close and personal.  Because it was necessary to put it back in the transport every night, some members were actually lucky enough to drive it.  It was transported down along with THE 83XX convertible that was THE actual Indy pace car, a 95 era Riviera that had a North Star V8 under the hood, the last built 99, 70 GS, and 87 GNX, as well as the Silver Arrow 1.  SA1 did not run under its own power and a bunch of us would have push it on and off the transport every morning and evening. Well worth it to see it up close and be able to see all of the minute changes that Bill Mitchell made to it.

[PWB]

Masterpiece

Where does the Blackhawk reside now?

 

[countrytravler]

1 hour ago, RivNut said:

Those of us in the ROA who attended the annual event entry in Eureka Springs, AR in 2005 were fortunate enough to see the Blackhawk up close and personal.  Because it was necessary to put it back in the transport every night, some members were actually lucky enough to drive it.  It was transported down along with THE 83XX convertible that was THE actual Indy pace car, a 95 era Riviera that had a North Star V8 under the hood, the last built 99, 70 GS, and 87 GNX, as well as the Silver Arrow 1.  SA1 did not run under its own power and a bunch of us would have push it on and off the transport every morning and evening. Well worth it to see it up close and be able to see all of the minute changes that Bill Mitchell made to it.

That is so awesome. 

[countrytravler]

1 hour ago, RivNut said:

Those of us in the ROA who attended the annual event entry in Eureka Springs, AR in 2005 were fortunate enough to see the Blackhawk up close and personal.  Because it was necessary to put it back in the transport every night, some members were actually lucky enough to drive it.  It was transported down along with THE 83XX convertible that was THE actual Indy pace car, a 95 era Riviera that had a North Star V8 under the hood, the last built 99, 70 GS, and 87 GNX, as well as the Silver Arrow 1.  SA1 did not run under its own power and a bunch of us would have push it on and off the transport every morning and evening. Well worth it to see it up close and be able to see all of the minute changes that Bill Mitchell made to it.

 

[countrytravler]

Just now, countrytravler said:

 

 

[RivNut]

In 2009. it was sold at Barrett-Jackson to a private buyer.  From the internet, I found that it was going on the auction block again in 2015 at the RM auction in Texas but there was no follow up on it from there.  

1983 Indy Pace car (not replica) with the pace light attached 

 

4.3 liter intercooled twin turbo V6

 

Factory 95 era convertible - Now owned by an ROA member

The Northstar System in a 95 era Riviera - now owned by an ROA member

 

Last Built 1999 Riviera

The underneath side of the hood was signed by every line worker that had a hand in assembling it.

 

Last built 1970 GSX

 

Last Built Grand National

 

And of course Bill Mitchell's Silver Arrow 1

[PWB]

At least - a '67 air cleaner was contributed to the final model. 

Nothing escapes THAT which was 1967. 

 

Denouement

 

 

[NTX5467]

The BlackHawk was one awesome creation!  Many were fortunate enough to see it up close and personal at various Buick events, including a regional meet the North Texas Chapter did in Waxahachie, TX one year.  As it turned out, Harold was transporting that car, plus a customer's car, and spent the day with us in Waxahachie, then continued on the next morning.   That was definitely appreciated!

 

The BH has been through a few car auctions.  Not really sure where it is now.

 

Great pictures and history!

 

NTX5467 

[EmTee]

Wow - this topic sure got off into the weeds!  How did we get from Pleasurizers to the BlackHawk...? 

[countrytravler]

Shocks are boring and the BlackHawk is exciting. LOL!!

I am shocked!!

 

My fought, I'll take the hit. It started about a Buick blowing the doors of a 409 and then all h--- broke loose. Enjoyed the ride?? 

[countrytravler]

On 6/10/2017 at 10:07 AM, Brad Conley said:

The car pictured is my car.  I've owned it since 1978.  It is the factory show car (Prototype) for the GSX series and sold to Len Immke Buick in Columbus, Ohio at the conclusion of its use by Buick.  The photo depicted is my car, sitting on a turntable, at the 1970 New York International Auto Show.    Mr. Immke owned many such show cars over the years, this is not the only one to "escape" into the wild.  I have been involved with Performance Buick's all of my life (59 years and counting).  While this may not be as many years as you have accumulated, I assure you I know of what I speak.

 

I have spoke at length with Denny Manner, the powertrain engineer that developed the Stage 1, Stage 2 and the Stage "3" 4 bolt main block.  Again, according to Denny, the Stage "3" 4 bolt main was only give to certain racers and NEVER AVAILABLE OVER THE COUNTER OR FACTORY ASSEMBLY LINE INSTALLED.  It was, so to speak, a "Skunk works" project, completed during lunch hours in the Powertrain Engineering Department at Buick.  This is direct from "the horse's mouth", so to speak. There were less than 10 of these Experimental Block's produced by Buick back in the day.  I am not meaning to call you out, but you just can't believe everything you read on the internet.  I know the statements I have presented to be factual and direct from the person's involved with the projects directly and not from Google.  Again, you just can't rely on everything you see/read on the internet.  Inaccurate information is presented as fact all the time.  The sources you cite are inaccurate in both horsepower and torque including the "fact" they cite that the Stage 3 was produced and installed in the Buick Blackhawk Showcar by Buick.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  TA Performance, of Phoenix, AZ, designed and built the powertrain for for Blackhawk.  Buick hired TA Performance to develop  the powertrain for the Blackhawk.  TA Performance built the engine and delivered it to the designer/builder of the Blackhawk...Buick just paid the bill.

 

Those are the facts, from those involved with the various projects.  Google is just an assimilation of various posts on the internet.  You can never take anything Googled as fact.

Do you know about this car?-http://barnfinds.com/1987-buick-gnx-13-miles/?utm_campaign=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Newsletter+(Instant)&utm_content=imagelink

Edited June 18, 2017 by countrytravler (see edit history)

[Brad Conley]

11 hours ago, countrytravler said:

Do you know about this car?-http://barnfinds.com/1987-buick-gnx-13-miles/?utm_campaign=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Newsletter+(Instant)&utm_content=imagelink

 

I have no personal knowledge of this particular car but have heard about it several times.  It has been touted as a "Bobby Labonte" edition where in it was sold through his dealership back in the day.  See:  http://www.turbobuick.com/threads/labonte-edition.153529/ for a thread on this particular car and postings from the (then) owner.

[MrEarl]

Moved this here from a General forum thread that had gotten a bit off course.

 

Please carry on.......

[MrEarl]

I've just got one question? From post # 9 above....

 

 

I assume that that is a Buick guy at center and that that picture is the origin of this famous image? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MrEarl]

Again all in jest countrytraveler. Hell my first car back in '65 was a '57 Chevy with a bored and balanced 327 and 4 speed, traded that for a black on black '67 Chevelle SS 396 4 spd and posi traction. Left my two front teeth in it's woodgrain steering wheel in a curve one night. Joined the Corp, and you know what my first car was when I got out of the suck.......  a '54 Buick.... and never looked at another Chevy since.

[smithbrother]

I kind of recall seeing the Blackhawk in/at the Buick gallery in Flint last September.  Sharon and I met Dave Langdon there to get pic's & info on the 1910 BUICK BUG.

 

Could be wrong, 

 

Dale in Indy

[Brad Conley]

On 6/10/2017 at 7:54 PM, BUICK RACER said:

 

 

Roberta,

 

Per your post on ,V8Buick.com you stated the following:

 

As said in way previous posts, there is no such thing as a Stage 3 block, I think the engine in the Blackhawk may have the TA Stage 3 heads on it as they tried to make it all out Buick, but didn't have the right components with the right techs to do the job, as "The Old Guy" said, we were there, and know the details, as do several others. The car has been reworked and if you look at the pics from Richmond, compared to the pics before it went to NM,you can see a great deal of work was done on cleaning up the engine compartment etc. The car doesn't get a great deal of on the road or racing action, but basically out of the Reliable Trailer out to the shows and back in the trailer. It's a show car, and that's all it will ever be, and hopefully will be for a long time. Maybe Buick/GM will take it in as something that could be a production car or at least a clone of a production car someday.Like this???

 

Roberta
BPG# 1018, BCA #16798, GSCA #2598
Director -Michigan Buick Performance Club http://www.mi-buicks.com
'68 GS350,4-sp, '68 GS400, 4-sp, Convt, P/S, 14.269 ET, 97.79 MPH, '70 GSX Stage 1, #14, 12.99 ET, 104MPH, Concours Gold Award in 2011 GS Nats, '70 Skylark Race Car - Broke, '86 GN, 14,853 miles, Senior Preservation Award in 2013 BCA Nats Show! '99 Buick Riviera Silver Arrow #12, 228K miles

 

 

I was mistaken on Mike T at TA Performance building the engine, but TA Performance did supply many of the parts used.  

 

 

[smithbrother]

I got the true info, the Blackhawk was auctioned off a few years ago like was mentioned in a former post, and the private owner hasn't been seen, maybe someone has seen it since it was sold, but my info doesn't know where it is.

 

Dale in Indy

[RivNut]

I've since lost the article but it was about a best of three heads-up between a 70 GS and a 69 Dodge Charger Hemi.  The Buick was a 455 single Quadrajet  with turbo 400 transmission and 3.42 gears.  The Charger was the hemi dual quad 4 speed variety, I can't remember what rear gears but I think it was 4.11.

 

After two runs, the Charger was put on the trailer with its "tail between its legs."

[gbsean]

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hemi-killer-buick-gs-vs-gtx/

 maybe you were thinking of this

[countrytravler]

On 6/20/2017 at 0:27 PM, MrEarl said:

I've just got one question? From post # 9 above....

 

 

I assume that that is a Buick guy at center and that that picture is the origin of this famous image? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is when I was working on the front carb when I was drag racing in 110 plus degree weather taken at the Great Lakes Dragway in Racine Wisconsin in 1980. The floats were sticking and someone took this picture and never seen until a couple of years ago when a guy posted on FB. This was at a 409 meet and how this all started when a post had that his Buick was never beat by a 409. That is when I came into defend my heritage. We have 409s running 7s in the 80s. Show me a Buick that won the NHRA Nationals in the 60s. NONE. Show me a Buick that can run 7s on racing fuel. NONE!! It was all in fun and the jabs were fun and educational. I even learned a thing or two about Buicks. Life is too short to be all that serious. Loosen up and have fun. We were lucky to be in the muscle car age. 

Thanks

Dave

Edited June 21, 2017 by countrytravler (see edit history)

[countrytravler]

2 hours ago, gbsean said:

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hemi-killer-buick-gs-vs-gtx/

 maybe you were thinking of this

Great clip from 84.

[countrytravler]

We took a junkyard,1970 Cadillac 500ci engine and stuffed it in a 1966 Nova. We reworked the carb and dist. We had to use the stock exhaust manifolds with cut outs, headers were not available, a reworked turbo 400 with a 3200 stall converter and a 4.11 posi with 7in slicks. The car would run high 11s all day. People would look at the engine and most thought it was a Buick. They would flip when told it's a 500 Cadillac engine. It did not last long with the weak upper end.

Here are the stock specs on the 500. Check out the torque.

Year

Engine

Carb

Bore and Stroke

Piston Dis place ment Cubic Inches

Com pres sion Ratio (Stan dard)

Maximum Brake H.P. @ R.P.M.

Maximum Torque Lbs. Ft. @ R.P.M.

Normal Oil Press Lbs

Spark Plug Type

Spark Plug Gap

Point Gap adj in to misfire then out

Dwell Angle

Firing Order

Ignition Timing BTDC or Mark

Grnd +/- Volts

1970

375 Horsepower

V8-472

4 Barrel

4.30 x 4.06

472

10.0

375 @ 4400

525 @ 3000

35-40

AC R46N

.035

1/2 turn

30

15634278

7.5°

-12

400 Horsepower

V8-500

4 Barrel

4.30 x 4.304

472

10.0

400 @ 4400

550 @ 3000

35-40

AC R46N

.035

1/2 turn

30

15634278

7.5°

-12

 

 

Edited June 22, 2017 by countrytravler (see edit history)