head job

[carterbar]

Hi All

           It looks  my 47 just blew its head gasket,. is there anything I should know

or any tips about doin this job, had a few differing prices for the gaskets along

with varied shipping prices , I plan to get the head skimmed and tested while its off

 

thanks Paul

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

What tells you it blew the head gasket?  Is the engine stock or modified?

 

  Ben

[carterbar]

Hi

       radiator pressures up and lets rip,  also using water, its a stock straight 8

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

If you remove the radiator cap with the engine running , do you see bubbles? I do not recall ever seeing a blown head gasket on a Buick straight except sometime shortly after the head had been installed and NOT torqued properly. 

 

  Ben

[JohnD1956]

6 hours ago, carterbar said:

Hi

       radiator pressures up and lets rip,  also using water, its a stock straight 8

 

That could be a bad thermostat too.  When they don't open not only will it overheat, but the coolant will often eject through the overflow passage ( or out the fill if the radiator cap is off).  Oil in the radiator, or coolant in the oil pan indicates a blown head gasket.  Baring both try a thermostat before removing the head,.

[NTX5467]

If the "blown" head gasket happens, not only might coolant system pressures be too high, but there should be an engine miss, too.  Checking the spark plugs for moisture after the engine has run (about 15 minutes to be fully to operating temperature), then stopped and parked, to allow everything to stay pressured-up and cool down slowly, there probably should be excessive moisture on two adjacent spark plugs, which have also been mis-firing.  Of course, any moisture on a spark plug would be "excessive", I suspect.

 

For all practical purposes, it might not hurt to get a new gasket in there and also see about other wear areas in the cylinder head while you've got it off, BUT if that's not the problem after all is said and done, at least you know that everything is in good shape in there.  Your determination.

 

NTX5467

[Gene Brink]

Paul,

If you do determine the head has to come off just two things I'd mention. 1) The head is really heavy! When I was young I managed to pull one off myself but I'd use an engine hoist now! 2) Careful with the intake & exhaust manifolds. There are threads on this and you might want to read up on the subject so you don't damage them by tightening incorrectly, etc... Good luck.

[carterbar]

thanks for all the info , thought I'd start with the thermostat  and found there was not one in

so I'm off to the parts shop to try one before I strip the head off

 

                  cheers  Paul

[60FlatTop]

I would use a cherry picker to lift the head, might be called a gantry there. Be really sure to diagnose the problem thoroughly. Have you pressure tested the cooling system both hot and cold? Done a compression test and leakdown test?

 

The last time I hand lifted a head was almost 20 years ago. It was lighter, a 1956 Olds V8, but a long reach over the fender. I almost had it when my back gave out. I dropped the head a few inches and I dropped to the floor next to the fender (wing). As I lie there I looked up at the workbench where I could call my Wife in the phone or crawl into the car and lie on the front seat. The seat was closer so I took in and waited about 20 minutes before staggering to the bench to use the phone.

 

Two or three days later I used the cherry picker to lower the head in place.

Bernie

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

On 6/4/2017 at 4:12 AM, carterbar said:

thanks for all the info , thought I'd start with the thermostat  and found there was not one in

so I'm off to the parts shop to try one before I strip the head off

 

                  cheers  Paul

 

 Paul, Has the radiator been removed and RODDED out.?

 

  Ben

[carterbar]

Hi   Ben

                   rad  is flowing OK   , tried a new thermostat in today to no avail,

system pressured up  the same, started to strip off the head .

should have it off tomorrow night.

 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

carterbar, we have seen on here MANY times folks said the radiator is flowing OK. Do all kinds of things to fix the overheating problem, only to have to pull the radiator and have it rodded or recored. Since you are already pulling the head, hope I am crying wolf.

 

  Ben

[carterbar]

thanks for all the info, rain stopped play ,

[NTX5467]

Radiator might be flowing, but is it flowing ENOUGH?  It might look good through the filler cap hole, but the bottom could be plugged with sediment.  ONLY way to check it would be with a non-contact IR heat "gun", checking the temps at the top, thermostat housing, and the bottom of the radiator core.  There should be a reasonable progression from Hot to not so hot.

 

Hope everything works out!

NTX5467

[carterbar]

Hi

        Ok  me and my friend Trev  took the head off the other night ( what a bleedin weight )

Found 2 possible causes and 1 concern, 

  1    there seemed to be a blow through between cylinders 2 & 3 & water jacket

  2   the water appears to flow from the rear cylinders up and around the head

or vice versa   from 5 holes around the rear cylinder.  there was a massive build up

of silt / corrosion debris blocking these passage ways,

I duly cleaned up the head and block.  removed the core plugs and totally blasted the sh*t

out of the block then blew it all out and oiled the bores and machined surfaces

my 1 concern is  the head gasket and head have water passages  all along the length,

the block does not appear to have matching holes, there is the usual telltale sign/shadow

but these seem  totally solid,   could  I drill these out to relieve or match the head passages?.

     The head is away to get pressure tested and skimmed if necessary , maybe a quick valve relap

  I thought I'd better check the water pump expecting just nubs instead of vanes  but it seems OK

  The cylinder bores are good with no lip, pistons and valves are a bit sooty but so are my lungs and I'm younger

 Has any body got the Torque settings and sequence for the head bolts,

any comments  views etc.?

 

                        cheers Paul

 

PS still looking for that elusive bit of trim for my rear fender

[old-tank]

28 minutes ago, carterbar said:

my 1 concern is  the head gasket and head have water passages  all along the length,

the block does not appear to have matching holes

That'st the way most engines are made for water circulation:  lower rad hose -> water jacket -> up backside of cylinder head -> across head and then out to radiator.

Those pitted marks on the block are where a head gasket rotted at a blind hole.  Put the gasket on the block and see if there is any non sealing areas.  I sometimes fill the pits with JBWeld and file flat.

[FLYER15015]

Paul,

Now that you have her apart, CHECK THE BYPASS VALVE HOUSING, BELOW THE THERMOSTAT CASTING !!!!!!!

 The fix is to remove the brass rod, spring and little brass washer, and REPLACE with a frost plug, and drill a 1/4" hole in the frost plug.

This prevents the lower radiator hose flow from overpowering the flow coming out of the head. they both run up thru the thermostat.

 

This is a MUST to cure overheating and has been addressed in several Pre War forum threads.

 

Sure cured my overheating !!!!!

 

Mike in Colorado

 

PS; GREAT LOOKING CAR !!!!!!

Edited June 9, 2017 by FLYER15015 (see edit history)

[carterbar]

15 hours ago, FLYER15015 said:

Paul,

Now that you have her apart, CHECK THE BYPASS VALVE HOUSING, BELOW THE THERMOSTAT CASTING !!!!!!!

 The fix is to remove the brass rod, spring and little brass washer, and REPLACE with a frost plug, and drill a 1/4" hole in the frost plug.

This prevents the lower radiator hose flow from overpowering the flow coming out of the head. they both run up thru the thermostat.

 

This is a MUST to cure overheating and has been addressed in several Pre War forum threads.

 

Sure cured my overheating !!!!!

 

Mike in Colorado

 

PS; GREAT LOOKING CAR !!!!!!

Hi Mike

              thanks for the advice,  either I'm missing something or the thermostat housing is missing something

because I can't see anything in there

[carterbar]

Hi all

              getting some great advice here   thanks

 

            Paul

[1939_Buick]

Download the 1942 Buick shop manual. All of it section by section. The pdf link does not work.

It is very comprehensive and has information that can be used with all straight 8’s.

It has more information than was included in older “Shop Manuals” before 1942-41

http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/Buick/1942/Shop%20Manual/

 

Page 349 below Expect 1942 is the same as 1947, but is your risk.

Edited June 10, 2017 by 1939_Buick (see edit history)

[FLYER15015]

Paul,

Per your pictures, it looks like yours has the restrictor hole cast in the bypass housing.

The '39 - '40's do not, and we have to use a frost plug to accomplish what you have showing in the 1st picture.

 

Mike in Colorado

[carterbar]

Hi all

still waiting on word about my cylinder head , head gasket arrived today but it appears to be the

wrong one, the old one is a composite  gasket ie top and bottom metal with gasket material inside.

 the new one  is one piece metal and very thin  , in fact it looks like I have only got part of a gasket,

  any ideas or info would great  as it is getting very costly getting the wrong parts, paying tax and shipping etc.

 

                             cheers Paul

[JohnD1956]

You have an original head gasket.  That's what they looked like and will increase the compression ratio in your engine. Generally speaking you id the water jacket ports and put a coat of sealer around them before assembly.  Do a dry run on placement too.  It has a top and bottom.  It fits perfectly the right way and may look close the other.

[NTX5467]

Steel shim head gasket.  Installed thickness about .018".  The "composite" gasket is usually about .060" installed thickness.  Allegedly worth about .2 or .3 difference in compression ratio, from what I've read.  Many replacement gasket sets used the composite gasket.  It's a little more tolerant of uneven surfaces, I suspect, when compared to the steel shim gasket.

 

NTX5467

[carterbar]

 I take it there is no valve /piston clash on these engines , so fitting a thinner head gasket will

increase the CR and maybe give a little? more  HP, I have been told there is 3 types of gasket

steel shim ( which I have now )

composite ( which was on )

compression ring 

what determines which gasket to fit?  ie engine number, year , model ?

hopefully my head should comeback skimmed and true , just wondered what  gasket

people rate the best for these old beasts

can't wait to get it back on the road.

thanks to all the Buiticians for all the help and info

 

  cheers Paul

[NTX5467]

Performance wise, you'll probably never know the difference between head gaskets.  That minor increase in CR MIGHT make 1 or 2 additional horsepower.  Factor that down by about 20% for powertrain power absorption, and you see where it ends up.  Acceleration might better be helped by increasing the tire pressure to max.

 

ALL composite head gaskets need a "fire ring" for sealing, period.  Some makers, on their higher-level/performance gaskets, will add a thin copper wire inside the ring's "U" area for a better seal (akin to "o-ringing" a block, but without that labor operation).  The metal O-rings were usually used with "dead soft copper" head gaskets, which are NOT a streetable item.

 

Other than stock purists, when the Chevy steel shim head gaskets were replaced by the composite gasket, the only people who chased after those last remaining steel shim gaskets were usually racers.  In some cases, they'd stack two of them, for a build thickness of .036", which was still less than the typical .060" of the composite gaskets.  For them, that marginal additional CR might make the few horsepower that it took for them to win a close race.  But that doesn't count driving ability and such.  All of this is presuming nothing was cut from the cylinder head surface that would reduce combustion chamber volume or shape!

 

In more recent years, the items in the composite head gaskets have improved from what they were 40 years ago, when they were typically "budget" gaskets.  Follow all instructions for correct gasket orientation and placement, plus the mention of "sealer".

 

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[60FlatTop]

That's a big car. The performance difference in head gaskets would be like a pedicure on a fat woman's dancing ability.. Sealing and alignment are the key issues.

Bernie

[carterbar]

Hi All

              Fell behind doing the Buick due to doing  other things  including a trip to the Normandy beaches ( brill ) 

             But   I  finally got the head back , all skimmed and true, cleaned out and valves cleaned up and lapped in

              Took 3 of us to lift and locate the head back in place but its nearly all back together now,

              what's the best way to set up for the valve gaps and what is the recommended measurement

              as the head was skimmed and the valves lapped in I backed off all the adjusters in case of any damage

               also can you buy a new temperature sender unit as I do not trust the old one, or is it best to fit a

             more modern gauge and sender unit,

           

[carterbar]

the bridge is the Pont De Normandy over the river Seine which leads onto the Viaduc du grand canal du Havre

pretty good view up there, and

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

 

 You have a '48 or '49 248 CI engine. Is it a Dynaflow car or standard?  Should be a standard if it is a '47.

The picture of the passenger side appears to show hydraulic lifters. IF so, with the piston at top dead center with both valves closed, [ compression stroke] one adjusts the rocker arm to JUST remove any slack and the turn the adjusting screw 1 1/2 turn more.  If mechanical lifters, using a feeler gauge between the rocker arm and valve, set a .015 in clearance with engine at operating temp.

 

  Ben

[60FlatTop]

With clean water jackets, proper torque and retorque, new belts and hoses (heater hoses, too) and a good thermostat, your car's cooling system is more reliable than any gauge you can find. Fit an aftermarket one to the opening and tie wrap it to something in the engine compartment. Open the hood frequently and check it. Once you are satisfied with the job you did remove the test gauge and keep the cooling system in good repair.

 

Maybe I will put up a couple of pictures this afternoon.

Bernie

[carterbar]

Well  got the engine up and running and it sounds sweet as a nut, so I'm

pleased with that, the radiator didn't sound so clever though  and the heat did

not seem evenly spread  so I'm taking your advice and sending it off tomorrow

for a flow check and recondition if necessary, when is the best time to retorque

these engines,  thanks to everyone for the info and advice.

   still looking for that elusive rear fender trim if anybody finds one

[60FlatTop]

Once the car has gone through a couple of temperature cycles it would be a good time to recheck the torque.

 

As to my thoughts that a well maintained system is more reliable than a gauge, I open the hood and check fairly often. I don't use hoses or belts over 15  years old, less on either if a visual inspection causes concern.

 

My Riviera showed a "HOT" light when started, known cold, in the early 2000's. I put this gauge on to check and it was the 40 year old sensor. I took the picture today. I still open the hood and look at the gauge after short and long drives. And I have confidence. Maybe I will get a new sensor.

 

We had everything apart on the convertible, new engine, trans rebuilt, sub-frame detailed, enough so all was a concern. I installed these gauges to monitor during and after driving, again, opening the hood and snooping around frequently. I even found a leaky fuel injector I would not have seen monitoring from the dashboard.

It has been written (even on this forum) that I am a little nuts for putting gauges under the hood, but they satisfy me. If I needed them as a warning while I was driving, well, I'd feel like I let myself down.

The cars are all full of gas and will start right up. I am only taking a 2 mile round trip to Tim Horton's for coffee, but any one is ready to go as far as the tank will take it.

Edited August 1, 2017 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[carterbar]

Hi all

          Well I am back up and running again,cars going fine, head done 

reconditioned radiator, thermostat,belt, hoses etc.just ordered a carb rebuild kit

and hopefully picked the right trunk seal, new headlining getting done this week,

going to retorque the head bolts and the jobs a guddin.

thanks for all the advice and info    it helped a lot.

  cheers Paul

[carterbar]

Hi all , well I re torqued the head  , and I did get a little more on the bolts , used the car

for a friends wedding day and it went fine ( both the car and the wedding ),

 I'm finding the gearbox getting quite noisy in 1st and reverse , are these known for

bad bearings or gear trouble. if I shift into 2nd and third the box is relatively quiet,

just waiting ( still ) on my headlining and carb kit ,boot seal,

 

                  thanks all    Paul

[carterbar]

Hi all

             I've been putting the new headlining in, but need some info, I need some close up pictures

of over the door area and how it finishes off , headlining is blacker than a black thing in a black shed on a black night

and looking good just needs a bit friendly persuasion to smooth it out and fasten around the door aperture.

fitted the correct new boot seal  from Old Buick parts who   where great.

will post pics when done.

                                                                thanks Paul