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Not sure of your model and year... but it is my understanding the body was painted separately all over at once and after fitting out went to the "body drop" onto the painted and assembled chassis. The museum had a display of this a few years ago with a 1937 model I think. So firewall and underneath are the same as the outside of the body. Two-tones are another thing tho!

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as far as years mines a 27 and keninman's seems to be a 29.  i would think easily by 27 they were using lacquer on both the chassis and body, even unbuffed lacquer would still have a decent shine on the chassis, gloss content would change with age and also by the weather conditions they were spraying in, if it was hot and they were using a slower lacquer thinner to shoot the chassis more easily and keeping everything wet, that could tone down the gloss, also if over thinned it can look beautifully wet and shiny to the painter but then "blush" as the lacquer drys creating quite the matte effect unintentionally.

 

i'm guessing on the earlier bodies like the 27 and 29 the metal floor pans that are nailed in were probably already pre-painted black both sides and installed and most likely the wooden floor boards painted both sides, i would guess the wooden boards went in after the chassis and body were mated together leaving the open spaces to aid in body mounting etc.

 

body color would have been applied before chassis mount and as far as painting underneath i bet it was as far as the painter could reach underneath on the jig or body cart the body would be mounted to, and there would be overspray on anything he could not reach including the metal floor pan. wood floorboards installed after would be no overspray.

 

this is all an educated guess on my part i'm just getting into studebakers and have nothing to back that up except for other cars i have duplicated. i read in 27 they were cranking out over 1,000 cars a week so i bet that line was moving. it would be cool to check out an original unrestored car, that 27 speed record car they have at the museum looks like it's untouched and original would love to climb under that.

 

on mine i'm going with single stage black on the chassis 75% gloss toning it down a bit will add a little contrast to super shiny black base/clear fenders  and i'm guessing look a little closer to what it would have been. under neath i'll go straight single stage black then mask off to body sheetmetal fold, then shoot the body base / clear.

 

check this link i had saved on early body paint history, types and techniques interesting read, and also mentions studebaker.

http://www.bodyshopbusiness.com/behind-the-paint-history/

 

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One of the very early publications, I think it may have been either an "Antique Review " from the 70's, or one of Bill Cannon's publications, contained an in depth review of the process. The information was gathered from the inspection of a number of original cars. The conclusion, as I remember it, was that at least the "Classic" 1929-33 Presidents, and maybe others as well, the chassis' were painted lower body color, after the body was dropped, but before the front clip, fenders etc. had been assembled. The inside of the frame rails were not painted and retained their black color, as did an a voided area under the, already applied, running boards.

 

Therein lies the problem for the restorer. Two of choices for the chassis would be incorrect, and the third would just look stupid on a restored car.

1) leave the chassis black, which was wrong, but could have been an acceptable option.

2) Paint the entire chassis lower body color. Giving a much better finished look to the semi-custom car that Studebaker was producing.

3) Leave parts of the frame black, while using lower body color on the rest of the chassis, as Studebaker seemed to have done.

The choice was clear to me, but others, no doubt, might choose to go a different route.

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What I originally had in mind was whether to use gloss of matte finish for the undercarriage. Since I am not removing the body, everything is going to be the same and I believe I will go with a gloss implement paint for durability and ease of touch up. It does bring up another question though and that has to do with the door posts, and the edges of the doors, etc. On mine the post and other surfaces only visible when the door is open are black all of the way down. From what I can see under the seats, these areas are black as well as the wood part of the floor and I am pretty sure they were not repainted. The wood spokes are black and have probably been repainted but in the brochures the spokes are always painted the body color (I plan to paint them this way). 

 

BTW, thank you all for the help. I have a much better understanding now than before. 

 

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I would like to add a couple of comments about the cars from the "Classic Era."  The Depression of the thirties, required most of the car manufactures to do things that might not have seemed prudent in the high production market that ended in 1929. It became more difficult for Studebaker to sell it's top of the line President model (and everything else, as well). I used the term semi-custom to indicate that Studebaker was willing to do about anything that the customer wanted in order to make a sale. At an additional cost to the customer there was a provision for painting a car in any color that the customer wanted. There were, no doubt many other custom treatments that were available for the asking. So the terms "always" and "never," don't really apply to production process at that time. This has given credence to today's restorer who would like to add some, period correct, custom touches to his car.

 

I doubt that wood wheels were "always painted body color." I know that this was not the case where wire wheels were used, as with the two toned green, 80R which used yellow wheels. Again the case of "always" and "never," being applied to a process that did not apply to the production process as it existed at that time.

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On 6/2/2017 at 3:43 PM, Buffalowed Bill said:
On 6/2/2017 at 6:01 AM, Buffalowed Bill said:

One of the very early publications, I think it may have been either an "Antique Review " from the 70's, or one of Bill Cannon's publications, contained an in depth review of the process. The information was gathered from the inspection of a number of original cars. The conclusion, as I remember it, was that at least the "Classic" 1929-33 Presidents, and maybe others as well, the chassis' were painted lower body color, after the body was dropped, but before the front clip, fenders etc. had been assembled. The inside of the frame rails were not painted and retained their black color, as did an a voided area under the, already applied, running boards.

 

Therein lies the problem for the restorer. Two of choices for the chassis would be incorrect, and the third would just look stupid on a restored car.

1) leave the chassis black, which was wrong, but could have been an acceptable option.

2) Paint the entire chassis lower body color. Giving a much better finished look to the semi-custom car that Studebaker was producing.

3) Leave parts of the frame black, while using lower body color on the rest of the chassis, as Studebaker seemed to have done.

The choice was clear to me, but others, no doubt, might choose to go a different route.

 

i was thinking about this at work after read your post bill that is pretty crazy they would body color the chassis with body on fenders off etc. i mean at 10-20 feet it must have looked acceptable but oh man up close i can only imagine. and the extra work they must have done in masking off body engine etc. quite possible they had down draft in floor for the exhausting of overspray that technology is not as new as some think. 

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Im not sure about Sudebaker but Oldsmobile had most of the parts already painted before they went on the car so they would different colors or different levels of shine depending on the manufacturer of that part. By the 1950's and 1960's they seemed to just paint the bottom of the car all at once then install the parts so the floor would sometimes be a color like primer or body color but the suspension and brakes and other parts would still be black. I always like the look of a car with some different levels of shine on the parts but i dont know what was correct for Studebaker. I dont think any maker at that time was just painting the whole bottom of the car at one time after it was all together.

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On 6/2/2017 at 3:43 PM, Buffalowed Bill said:

I would like to add a couple of comments about the cars from the "Classic Era."  The Depression of the thirties, required most of the car manufactures to do things that might not have seemed prudent in the high production mark et that ended in 1929. It became more difficult for Studebaker to sell it's top of the line President model (and everything else, as well). I used the term semi-custom to indicate that Studebaker was willing to do about anything that the customer wanted in order to make a sale. At an additional cost to the customer there was a provision for painting a car in any color that the customer wanted. There were, no doubt many other custom treatments that were available for the asking. So the terms "always" and "never," don't really apply to production process at that time. This has given credence to today's restorer who would like to add some, period correct, custom touches to his car.

 

I doubt that wood wheels were "always painted body color." I know that this was not the case where wire wheels were used, as with the two toned green, 80R which used yellow wheels. Again the case of "always" and "never," being applied to a process that did not apply to the production process as it existed at that time.

this thought is intriguing and i would guess correct that many of the manufactures would bend over backwards to keep sales flowing especially on higher end models. since the beginning of my research (2-3) weeks on studebakers and the company they seemed to want to give the customer the latest and best as soon as it was available even during a model year.  i wonder how many cars almost became bespoke status with changes and requests customers made, that's the stuff i love seeing how they did it and did some differently. we have a shelby at the shop were we have gone through painstaking steps duplicating everything from overspray to seam sealer application even where the lineman would wipe his brush after spreading it, drips in the primer on the floor pans were nozzles in the floor sprayed it too heavily even the bare metal spots were the body sat on the chassis jig that rolled on the assembly line track. on the studebakers i wonder how a judge would react to a chassis painted in the fashion with black showing on some components and overspray probably be interesting!

one things for sure though sounds like multiple techniques are fully acceptable and that's good flexibility is always good. i want to get my hands on the studebaker review volume sets i believe by jan young? and also i wasn't aware of  publications by bill cannon i was aware of his mascot service already emailed them for the goddess of Atlanta for my 27 i will have to research availability on publications.

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13 minutes ago, billorn said:

Im not sure about Sudebaker but Oldsmobile had most of the parts already painted before they went on the car so they would different colors or different levels of shine depending on the manufacturer of that part. By the 1950's and 1960's they seemed to just paint the bottom of the car all at once then install the parts so the floor would sometimes be a color like primer or body color but the suspension and brakes and other parts would still be black. I always like the look of a car with some different levels of shine on the parts but i dont know what was correct for Studebaker. I dont think any maker at that time was just painting the whole bottom of the car at one time after it was all together.

yup i agree pretty much all original makes and models i've encountered have an array of different gloss levels, texture and even color some like ford even their redoxide primer bolted right up to black components and don't forget bare metal, driveshafts,spindles etc. some would already be rusting on their way out the dealerships door. it definitely makes your eye take in the whole picture much more than all shiny black front to back. that's why when doing that i like to at least go back and do new cotter pins zerk fittings etc to break it up a bit and get the assembled look

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As far as the firewall goes, I really do not think this car's firewall has been repainted. The engine is rust and the transmission is almost undistinguishable as to color.  I have read that the firewall should be the body color but this one is flat black. The body has most likely been repainted and I am unsure what color it originally was. I guess I am going to have to chip some paint somewhere. From my documentation blue was not even and option on the 29 dictator, nor was all black but I find that hard to believe. Someone has been after many of the undercarriage parts with undercoating but it is in pretty sorry shape. I will say that it seems to have done it's job and prevented much rust. I just finished cleaning the front axle and I have no idea what color it might have been. I could not distinguish between the road tar, grease, dirt and paint. I just took it all off. 

 

My intention now is to paint all of the undercarriage gloss black, the engine and tranny, Studebaker olive green and the car some shade of green with a black top and fenders, etc. I have seen that 29 Dictators could be silver pine but I really want to see this color first. I think I might more like the 30-31 colors like absinthe or catona green though I really need paint swatches. 

 

I want to thank everyone for their input. I was not born until 65 and I do not remember a single car older than the  40s other than at a parade or car show. 

 

Below is my car now, an absinthe green Studebaker and a silver pine Toyota. 

 

 

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Absinth Green Stude.jpg

silver pine.jpg

Edited by keninman (see edit history)
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i was born in 64 but the first car i worked on in the trade was a 22 morgan 3-wheeler at 15yrs old i then was given a 1970 tr6 by my brother, still have it, so have been around the old stuff since the beginning your roadster is sweet!

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My first was a 65 Chevelle, 194, 3 on the tree with a hole in the #6 piston. I had never really worked much on anything older than my 62 or 63 pickup, I can't remember the year exactly I did have a couple of 55 Buick Specials but I did not really drive either of them farther than off of the trailer and ended up scrapping them. My dad was actually 2 years older than this car but ma is 4 years younger than it. BTW that is not my roadster I could not afford anything like that, its pic is only to illustrate the  absinthe color, same with the silver pine Toyota. Mine is the blue Dictator.  Also here is my engine and firewall.

 

engine and firewall.jpg

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I have a 28 Dictator GE second design royal model. It had a poor repaint that is peeling in places. The firewall is black from repaint but where it is peeling it is also black underneath.The car paint was never stripped which is part of the reason I believe the paint is failing. The black paint is only on the chassis, fire wall and fenders. The original color codes under the rear seat say Dove grey and Spruce green. The spruce green seems to be about the same color as the studebaker green engine paint. 

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I looked under the rear seat but the stencil is in too bad of shape to read much. The only writing is in the pic below. There had been squirrels or other animal that left behind a lot of shells from acorns and such under both the front and rear seats. I imagine this animal or animals caused the scale rust that destroyed the stencil. I used the shop vac to clean up the shells and nests. Now I have poison under the seats. 

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I have been doing more cleaning this morning. I found that the frame once I got through the layers of grease and dirt was a glossy black. The oil pan appears to be galvanized it is such shiny metal.

 

I checked the firewall and found another color under the black. It might only be primer but a similar color is under the dash area and behind the kick panels. I will include pics. 

 

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Without any individual production sheets surviving, all restoration information has had to be compiled from the inspection of original cars and workers at the plant who put them together. Today both are in short supply or maybe even nonexistent, in some cases. I know that judging may not be the goal of the restoration that you are doing, but some observations made from being a judge and having my car judged.

 

For obvious reasons I chose to paint the whole chassis of my 80R all lower body color. The only time I was ever challenged by a judge was at the car's first CCCA Grand Classic. The head judge, who was obviously unfamiliar with Studebaker, asked pointedly about Studebaker painting there chassis body color. I told him that it was what Studebaker was doing with it's top of the line cars. Studebaker was competing in a shrinking luxury car market, and the little things  were essential if they were to survive in the semi-custom, upscale market. He seemed satisfied and no one throughout the ensuing years has questioned that feature.  This included judging at the International Studebaker meet in Portland and an invitation and showing at Pebble Beach.   

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On 6/4/2017 at 4:55 PM, Buffalowed Bill said:

Without any individual production sheets surviving, all restoration information has had to be compiled from the inspection of original cars and workers at the plant who put them together. Today both are in short supply or maybe even nonexistent, in some cases. I know that judging may not be the goal of the restoration that you are doing, but some observations made from being a judge and having my car judged.

 

For obvious reasons I chose to paint the whole chassis of my 80R all lower body color. The only time I was ever challenged by a judge was at the car's first CCCA Grand Classic. The head judge, who was obviously unfamiliar with Studebaker, asked pointedly about Studebaker painting there chassis body color. I told him that it was what Studebaker was doing with it's top of the line cars. Studebaker was competing in a shrinking luxury car market, and the little things  were essential if they were to survive in the semi-custom, upscale market. He seemed satisfied and no one throughout the ensuing years has questioned that feature.  This included judging at the International Studebaker meet in Portland and an invitation and showing at Pebble Beach.   

bill do you still have the 80R? how about a few pictures if you have any.

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On 6/4/2017 at 11:50 AM, keninman said:

I have been doing more cleaning this morning. I found that the frame once I got through the layers of grease and dirt was a glossy black. The oil pan appears to be galvanized it is such shiny metal.

 

I checked the firewall and found another color under the black. It might only be primer but a similar color is under the dash area and behind the kick panels. I will include pics. 

 

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the 27 unfinished project i picked up was 95% already blasted and primed except for front fenders which had been manually stripped of most paint but the primer was still intact very similar to modern meaning (50's 60's) red oxide primer looks the same as the inside of your dash / cowl area

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i have no paint stamp in rear seat area already blasted primed but i do have the body tag from what i've seen on research it  mounts on rt. hand outer firewall i did locate two holes that line up, i had bumped into a studebaker document which i cant locate again that had the EU-W-2 listed as two tone greens hopi and i cant recall the other , but i have also read this tag relates to interior type / color i still need more clarification on that. not overally concerned on original colors i plan on greens anyways.

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to further the mystery on my car i had a chance to break down the hood today, its completely black both sides original one coat of paint, unless somebody completely stripped it many years ago for paint or possibly from another car? who knows. i am looking for drivers side upper hood half or complete hood if necessary if i have to possible repair or i'll fabricate new but a replacement would be a time saver for sure.

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I imagine that anyone who uses a Folgers coffee can for a gas take is a real mechanic not just a parts changer. It looks like you have your work cut out for you. I have a similar tag as yours and it is just above the steering column on the firewall. I was thinking that the brown in my pics look a lot like red oxide primer. It is kind of odd to find it under the dash unless it is original. I have included pics of my tag, also some of my repaint so far. I am not sure that my engine color is close but it was the only olive I could find without paying $50. I am hoping it will cure a little darker. 

 

 

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A couple of comments. In the late 20's i.e. 28, 29 original factory photos show some cars with the hood a different color from the rest of the body. Also in an earlier thread on color, a person who has restored many car from the late 20's and early 30's mentioned that he had found many cars in this era that the firewall in original paint was black. But as many where it was body color. 

As for the primer color, there was a color in 1928 29 (the name escapes me) that Richard Quinn once described to me as the color of rustoleum red primer.

That color is the original belt line on my 1928 GE, though it isn't mentioned in the paint code under the seat. Just the two main colors dove grey and spruce green are listed.

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  • 1 month later...
On 6/4/2017 at 8:56 PM, studeboy said:

I believe the first line of your paint code says Gliddens. So that was the manufacturer of the paint. Maybe wetting will reveal more information??

I did finally get around to wetting with wd40. It clearly says Limosine Blue, pretty much the color it is now. Blast it I really wanted a Green car. 

 

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Edited by keninman (see edit history)
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On ‎6‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 1:42 PM, danoz said:

i have no paint stamp in rear seat area already blasted primed but i do have the body tag from what i've seen on research it  mounts on rt. hand outer firewall i did locate two holes that line up, i had bumped into a studebaker document which i cant locate again that had the EU-W-2 listed as two tone greens hopi and i cant recall the other , but i have also read this tag relates to interior type / color i still need more clarification on that. not overally concerned on original colors i plan on greens anyways.

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As far as I know that plate is purely a body serial number. EU is the series, W-2 is the body style and the number is the numerical sequence.

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