My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project

[JV Puleo]

Not only did Gary make the hypothetical mating gear, he brought it up to the shop this morning so we could compare them. While waiting for him I milled the blocks that will be the spring shackles down to the finished length.

 

 

No sooner had I finished that and Gary arrived so we tried the gears to see if they worked together.

 

 

It looks as if I've calculated the the helix and the diametrical pitch correctly. The 3-D printer software wants to make the gear 2.75" in OD while the original gear is about .100 larger, hence the flats at the tops of the teeth are a bit wider. This is a characteristic of Helical gears...they can be made slightly larger than spur gears for the same tooth and DP settings. I don't know why they did it but it's something I've seen before. The Mitchell timing gears are also a bit larger than the tooth count warrants.

[edinmass]

This club and site are incredible......two guys helping out on a ridiculously complicated part just because it’s interesting. I feel privileged and honored that these two gentleman are helping me out with this very challenging project.

 

 

THANK YOU BOTH!

As well as all the other Intrested and helpful people who sent emails and PM’s.

 

This car will be in the road thanks to well over two dozen people. I owe all of them more than I can repay. My best to all. Ed

[Terry Harper]

Cool stuff and indeed a fantastic community!

 

Joe just an FYI.... we have not forgotten the impulse coupling. With a new school year we have a new team. The last few days they have 

made a lot of progress figuring out where the boys left off back in March and are moving ahead (they are a motivated team) I believe they have most of the parts

3D printed. Our hope is the have something in hand that we can use to test function and refine the design from there.

 

All good fun!

[edinmass]

I spent an hour typing in today’s update, and it got lost ...............pissed me off terrible........

 

Got 10 hours in on the White.

 

 

Another attempt in an hour.......if I sober up and get over it.

[JV Puleo]

Boy do I hat it when that happens. I've been known to type a long answer to something into word and copy it to a forum because if it vanishes into cyber space I know I won't do it again.

[Michigan Farmer]

Joe -

I ran across this in my files. You may already have a copy, but I thought it was interesting. It is 50 pages, so if you would like a copy I can send it to you as a pdf via email.

 

Ron

 

[JV Puleo]

Yes, by all means. I don't think I have it.

email is:

jvp5070@gmail.com

[JV Puleo]

Ed's water pump shaft is all packed up. I'll take it to FedEx in the morning...

I got a little done on the spring shackles today... with the two blocks  bolted together I put a center hole in for the shackle bolts. If it looks like I'm using a sledge hammer to swat a fly, I used the mill for this because I can move the table very precisely.

 

 

Then over to the drill press where I used two angle blocks bolted to the table as a fixture to locate the hole. doing it this way, all four holes will be in the same relative position to the blocks.

 

 

Drilled and reamed to 5/8" for the bushings that will be pressed in.

 

[JV Puleo]

I finished drilling and reaming the 5/8" holes.

 

 

And set it up in the mill to cut the middle out of them.

 

 

I got down to just below the bolt holes...

 

 

And this happened...

 

 

After the fact, I was able to work out what happened. You can never forget that these machines generate a huge amount of power and when something goes wrong, it happens very fast. But, I think this is only the third time in 10 years I've had a problem like this. I'll have to re-think how to go about doing it. I probably should have switched it over to horizontal and used a horizontal cutter. I'll have to get more steel...I don't have enough left to make both pieces...but I'm going to sleep on it and go back to it tomorrow.

 

This is a good example of why I'd rather make parts than work on the original parts...when something like this happens you've lost time but you haven't ruined something you can't replace.

 

Ed...what size are those 1/2-12's you need.  Length and head size. I'm at loose ends tomorrow so I may be able to knock them out. there's no point in wasting time.

Edited September 1, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Joe, not sure yet.....and Phil took off for ten days, so figuring it out may be impossible until I can call him. I did make an inquiry to several trusted restoration experts.....they suggested I check to see if they are Whitworth. I have all the taps and dies, as well as a selection of fasteners.......so I will check that out ASAP.

[JV Puleo]

Unlikely but not impossible. Whitworth threads were used in the the US prior to WWI. It's certainly worth checking.

[chistech]

Not sure what length or head size you need but if I remember right early Chevy head bolts were 1/2-12 and I think the filling station sells them. Sometimes the price is cheaper than the time making depending on the “price”.

[JV Puleo]

That's a good tip.

I'm at loose ends for the moment. None of the material I need for Ed's water pump shaft has come in and I ordered more to make the spring shackles. The next job on the Mitchell is the bearings but that will be demanding and I need to really focus on it. At the moment, I have a lot of other stuff going on so I'm trying to do simple things I've put off before attacking the bearing job. Today I started on a die holder. The technique of single-pointing threads about 3/4 of the way and finishing them with a die worked so well making the shackle bolts that want to make a die holder because the set I have only goes to 1-1/2". This will be useless for cutting coarse threads to their full depth but the die holder I have isn't much good for that either. Dies for some of the really archaic sizes can be found but they are often intended for use in a big die stock. So, I decided to try making a 2" holder. These are the two pieces roughed out. I'd have made it in one piece if I had the right piece of bar.

 

 

With any luck, tomorrow I'll post some photos of my "barn find"...

 

[JV Puleo]

As if I didn't have enough to do, I've been helping two of my cousins clean up the family home so it can be sold. Until recently their brother was living there but he died unexpectedly a few weeks ago. In walking around the property, a place I've know literally all my life, we came to the barn - actually a boat house - that collapsed in a hurricane about ten years ago. Sticking out of the rubble were some handlebars. My cousin George and I both had Nortons about 40 years ago...at one time or another he also had a Triumph and an Indian. I'd presumed they were long gone but George was one of those people who hardly ever dispose of anything and the bikes were still there in the ruins of the boat house.

 

This is the Indian.

 

 

The Triumph...

 

 

And the Norton

 

 

They gave them to me...I'm not sure what I'll do with them. I will probably restore the Norton as George had been planning to do. His brother tells me there is a pile of NOS parts for it in the cellar. Getting them out of there is going to be a challenge. I've started shifting the rubble but I think I'll enlist one of my nephews to give me a hand.

 

The materials for Ed's water pump shaft arrived yesterday as I was leaving so I'll get on to that tomorrow if I'm not in North Kingstown moving rotten timbers.

Edited September 3, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Mike Macartney]

A nice find Joe. It makes up for all the efforts with the clearing up.

[JV Puleo]

I noticed that my cousin Gail thinks I'm a bit daft for even wanting them but she probably though that to begin with.

I called my nephew to tell him I was giving him all of his Great Uncle's fishing gear and took the opportunity to enlist him n the moving project.

[Mike Macartney]

5 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

. . . . my cousin Gail thinks I'm a bit daft for even wanting them . . . .

 

A little eccentric maybe, like the majority of us on this forum! 😉

[1912Staver]

Top photo looks like a Royal Enfield , middle, a BSA , might be something good , bottom a Norton Commando. All well worth saving ! Commando's have excellent parts

availability. The BSA really depends on the model, some have quite low value , Thunderbolt's  for example. Others are quite valuable and sought after, Hornet's and Spitfires.

 

Greg  ... more or less retired from British M.C.'s but at one time I was very keen. Owned many.

[JV Puleo]

The top bike is an Indian - since I took that picture I've dug it out and it's upright for the first time in years. I think it's a Scout but until I get it some where I can look at it I won't know. I thought the 2nd one was a BSA but my cousin tells me it was a Triumph. He's never been interested in bikes so I'll know better when I dig it out. The Norton I remember well because my cousin bought it at the same time I had one and we used to trade tools back and forth.

 

I like BSA...I've had at least 3 of them, all 1-lungers though.

 

The materials for Ed's water pump shaft came in and I'll start on it next week.

 

 

Today I worked on finishing the die holder I started on Wednesday. Of course, I changed the design, in this case so I could make it from available scraps. I'll need this tool eventually but a secondary motive for doing it now is that the materials and the sizes are similar to the gear project so I'm using it as an experiment to make sure I've selected the right tools. I didn't have a piece of bar long enough so I made the front end first then turned won another scrap for the back end.

 

 

Both have 1" holes reamed in them but attaching them so that those holes line up perfectly is a trick.

 

 

I pressed a piece of 1" aluminum bar in and pulled the two pieces together with a bolt. then used the dividing head to drill 4 evenly spaced holes in the flange I'd made. I forgot to take a picture but after doing that I had to deepen the holes in the lower piece to have room to thread them

 

 

Then I opened up the holes in the flange a few thousandths larger than the diameter of the screw.

 

 

This allowed me to press in a 1" mandrel, align both pieces on it and screw them together.

 

 

It worked perfectly.

 

 

I pressed the mandrel back in and turned the OD of the big portion so it was absolutely concentric with the center.

 

The last step was to face it off. I now have to bore it for a 2" die and put in some threaded holes.

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Laughing Coyote]

Joe,

Being that your a machinist I thought I would share these pictures of a tool my friend made up. He was a machinist with the Air Force for 30 years and when he retired he gave them to me. They work pretty neat when the situation presents itself. They go inside a mill table slot and you turn the wheel outward to hold it in place. Then the material can butt up against the back side.

I enjoy following along on your machining adventures.

 

 

[JV Puleo]

I like those so much I'm going to make some...what a good idea.

[Laughing Coyote]

I can PM you the dimensions if you like. I do believe he made them out of 17-4 PH material. 

[1912Staver]

The top bike is an Indian ,,, sort of.  Royal Enfield's marketed by Floyd Cymer  in the U.S. as Indians.  Quite a desirable machine these days, you have done very well !

Very nifty tool !

Greg

 

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Is it... I'd thought it was older but it certainly looks like your picture. I've no problem with Royal Enfield. In fact, I might like that better.

My cousin Ben and I got all three bikes out of the rubble today and standing up. The Indian/Royal Enfield is missing some stuff and it's unlikely that we'll ever find the parts in the ruins of the barn. The Norton is complete and the Triumph is together and turns out to be one of the little ones - I think a 250 single. That's not a disappointment as I've more than enough "big" bikes here and I had one of those little Triumphs years ago...I rode it all through the "gas crisis" during the Carter administration and for my purposes, going back and forth to work in the city, it was just fine... I'd bought it for a girl friend who wanted to learn to ride a motorcycle. He mother was not happy about that!

 

I took more photos but forgot the cable that connects the computer to the camera in the office.

The side cover on the right hand side is missing and the chain connections inside rusty. All that can be fixed but I wonder if a RE cover will fit if I can't find the Indian one. Actually, it will be some time before I get to this as I refuse to seriously interrupt the Mitchell project and I haven't room for it in the shop. I'm going to have to get some sort of garden shed to put it in for the time being. I may be able to get one in the cellar at a time and if I do anything, I'll do the Norton first.

Edited September 6, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

21 hours ago, Laughing Coyote said:

I can PM you the dimensions if you like. I do believe he made them out of 17-4 PH material. 

 

Thanks for the dimensions...is seems to me that this is a really good way to get a piece down on the table absolutely parallel to the T slots. That is something that is (or was now) much easier said than done.

[edinmass]

On 9/4/2020 at 7:27 PM, Laughing Coyote said:

Joe,

Being that your a machinist I thought I would share these pictures of a tool my friend made up. He was a machinist with the Air Force for 30 years and when he retired he gave them to me. They work pretty neat when the situation presents itself. They go inside a mill table slot and you turn the wheel outward to hold it in place. Then the material can butt up against the back side.

I enjoy following along on your machining adventures.

 

 

Ok, I’m not too bright, and am five Crown Royals into the evening....and to be honest, they were very heavy pours...........I don’t get what I’m seeing.......explain for the ignorant and inebriated. 

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

They are expandable clamps that fit into the T slots on the mill table. It allows you to set a stop that is perfectly parallel with a cutter and with the travel of the table. For instance, I had to cut an 8" wide piece of steel, about 30" long, into two pieces 4" wide. The travel of the table is only 26 inches so I had to get the piece parallel with the cutter and be able to move down it after the first cut had been made. I did it, but I had to improvise a stop on the side of the mill table. With these pieces all I'd have had to do is put them in the slots and tighten them up...then clamp down the piece being milled. When you are doing long pieces it's often better to clamp them directly to the table and position them so that the cutter, when it goes through, is directly over one of the T slots...otherwise you'll put a gouge in the table. On drill presses it's called "the mark of shame"!

[JV Puleo]

22 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

The top bike is an Indian ,,, sort of.  Royal Enfield's marketed by Floyd Cymer  in the U.S. as Indians.  Quite a desirable machine these days, you have done very well !

Very nifty tool !

Greg

 

 

 

I'm usually skeptical of internet "research" but it if I've found one of these (and it certainly looks as if I have)...it appears that only abut 15 of them were completed before Clymer died. I'll post a better picture later today. It looks as if the missing parts are mostly engine related and shouldn't be difficult to replace.

[1912Staver]

It may be as rare as that however I was under the impression that the number was higher. The really rare one that I am aware of was Clymer's  alternate offering of a Indian  badged Velocette. 

Regardless of rarity your bike has the makings of a great machine.  These later Interceptors have a great reputation.  Much desired in Royal Enfield circles.

 

Greg

[Gary_Ash]

Joe, my 2" die holder is not as pretty as yours, but I was able to quickly put it together from some scrap stock.  It worked OK to thread a 3/4" tie rod tube.

 

[JV Puleo]

I am skeptical of the number as well. We have to be very careful of internet sources. More times than not someone makes a wild guess and it gets repeated endlessly until it's a "fact" without any substantiating evidence other than someone else said it. The fact, however that it has a RE engine - no matter how many were made - will probably make finding the missing parts easier. The magneto side cover is missing as is the exhaust system. I never saw a seat or a gas tank. It was apart like this when I first saw it nearly 40 years ago but I didn't look closely at the time and might not remember much if I did. We still might find the parts but the boat house it was in is completely wrecked. I did find some other neat stuff though, including a pair of stanchion mounted running board spotlights that I happen to know came off a 1924 Silver Ghost roadster.

 

I'll keep the bike...but it will have to wait until I make a lot more progress on the Mitchell. I'm very reluctant to take on more than I can do because I know I have a weakness for that.

[JV Puleo]

1 minute ago, Gary_Ash said:

Joe, my 2" die holder is not as pretty as yours, but I was able to quickly put it together from some scrap stock.  It worked OK to thread a 3/4" tie rod tube.

 

 

 

I like it...but you know how to weld and I don't!

[JV Puleo]

36 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

It may be as rare as that however I was under the impression that the number was higher. The really rare one that I am aware of was Clymer's  alternate offering of a Indian  badged Velocette. 

Regardless of rarity your bike has the makings of a great machine.  These later Interceptors have a great reputation.  Much desired in Royal Enfield circles.

 

Greg

 

The odd thing is I've never had an RE but I've had at least two Velocette's. I was also left a 1947 MAC by a very good friend but I declined to take it as I thought it should be saved for his son who was only about 5 or 6 when his dad died. It was the right decision because he grew up to be another early bike guy and appreciates having some of his father's collection.

[JV Puleo]

I had to come in to the office to get some odds and ends so I though I'd post these.

 

The Norton Commando.

 

 

The little 250 Triumph.

 

 

And the Enfield/Indian.

 

 

 

You can see that the timing cover is missing. It may be in the barn but I'm not optimistic of finding it. The same with the gas tank and the seat. This is clearly the most challenging job and if I do it, it won't be for some time.

 

 

We also found a few Model A lights.

 

 

And these... stanchion spotlights that I removed from EA Mowbray's '24 Ghost roadster about 40 years ago. Mr. Mowbray sold them to my cousin to use on his 1926 Lincoln but he never got to that and sold it back to the original owner's family a few years ago...before the barn collapsed.

 

 

I'm stretched pretty thin right now and will do my best not to get distracted from the Mitchell project but the clean up of the old family land has to take priority...at least until the weather gets cold. More tooling bits came in for the White water pump shaft project so that isn't stalled and when I've got this in hand, I'll go back to the Mitchell bearings.

Edited September 6, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

With reference to how many of the Clymer Enfield/Indians were built, supposedly 200 Engines were ordered. When Clymer died in 1970 140 of them were still in England and were sold to the Ricikman brothers who built the Rickman Interceptor with them. That leaves 60 unaccounted for...not 15. Whatever the number, it's a fairly rare bike. Other than the frame, the parts were purchased in so it is probably realistic to be able to find whatever is missing or beyond repair.

 

I just realized that if it was built in 1970, it couldn't have been more than 5 or 6 years old when it went into the barn so there is a good chance that it has very low mileage on it...though I'll bet that all of the engines are stuck.

Edited September 6, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Mike Macartney]

15 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

...though I'll bet that all of the engines are stuck.

 

You never know your luck Joe, you maybe surprised.

[edinmass]

Joe.....one of my best friends has a vintage motorcycle shop......they have parts for BSA, Norton, NSU, Triumph, and a bunch of others. When you get your list of needed parts, let me know. He can find a unicorn horn if you need one.👍
 

PS- I grew up and learned mechanics in a family motorcycle shop in the 70’s and 80’s. So I am familiar with them.........more than I want to admit! This was our last motorcycle build at the restoration shop up north.....top fuel Harley built entirely in house, we even made the cylinders. It runs six seconds in the quarter mile at 226mph.......if you can hang on.

Edited September 7, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Thanks Ed... I will do that, though at the moment I've got to get them home and find a place to put them...I think I'll do the Norton at home. There isn't enough room in the shop for another project and I don't want to complicate things there.

 

jp

 

[EDIT] I haven't had a motorcycle in a long time. I think it must be more than 30 years. The very first thing I fixed on the 850 Norton I had was the transmission. They have a weak transmission. It's basically the same as that on the Norton International which had about half the horsepower of the Commando. If you miss a shift it is very easy to split the transmission case, which I did in the first week I had the bike. I was shocked at how easy it was to get a new case back then but, of course, I had to take the old one out and move all the internal parts over to the new case. At this point I remember almost nothing about doing it aside from the fact that I did and it came out fine. It's interesting how time and perspective can change your views. Today, there is little about a 70s motorcycle I think of as challenging.

Edited September 7, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Today is supposed to be a holiday but I'm not very good at holidays, or rather, I'd rather work if the work is interesting. I assembled the taper turning tool I made - I don't want to say designed because a friend suggested this a long time ago and it's only now that I have a use for it. I put a 4MT arbor on the boring head and a 1" to 2MT drill adapter in the hole that ordinarily holds the boring bar, then put a 2MT center in that. I wish the adapter was shorter but I think it's hardened so cutting id won neatly isn't realistic with my equipment.

 

 

It goes in the lathe like this...

 

 

This is to turn the taper on the end of the White water pump shaft. The boring head is adjustable in thousandths of an inch and I used the really neat solution Mike McCartney showed us to calculate how much I need to adjust the center toward the cutter to get the correct taper. Before I make the water pump shafts I'm going to make a sample and send it to Ed to test with the piece that fits over the end and drives the generator.

 

Then I bored out the die holder. Coincidentally, the dimensions and materials are very similar to the gear blank Ill have to make for the water pump shaft so this has been a worthwhile practice run that will be useful in the future as well. The hole in the center is 1" because at some point I will have to make a tie rod for the Mitchell. The original was a piece of thin wall tubing. It's literally broken in the middle and someone - the proverbial "tractor mechanic" – fixed it by welding a piece of angle iron to it. I do not like the idea of making any compromises where steering is concerned so when I make a new one I'll use solid, 7/8" bar. It will have to be threaded on the ends and this tool will make that job both easier and more accurate.

 

 

It came out pretty good although I had a lot of trouble at first getting a smooth bottom on the blind hole.

 

 

I still have to put in set screws to secure the die and a threaded hole for the handle to turn it...and make the handle but maybe I'll take the rest of the day off and work on my plumbing.

Edited September 7, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[edinmass]

It’s Labor Day........so I too have been up working since 630 am. My labor today......Change tubes and flaps on the White  ......as I was drenched in sweat in an air conditioned garage, I thought about how in about three months I get to do all of this again when I switch to new tires.........I must be insane. I feel like I went ten rounds with Mike Tyson......I still have most of my ears, but one wheel tried to take it off. My right shoulder won’t be right for a a week. Still two more to do. Remember, this car hasn’t been touched since 1952....14 years before I was born. Every bolt is a challenge.......and the only easy thing on this car when you service it is bleeding from multiple places on your body. Everything fights you, kicks you in the ass,  and spits you out. I’m numb  to it all now.....too many years spinning wrenches on priceless junk that never cooperates. It’s easier now.......I have learned my lessons multiple times. The most common question is, what is going to go bad next, and how much BS will it be to get past it. As we walk out the door each night, we ask.....who is crazier the people writing the checks, or the guys fixing the stuff. We have a definitive answer.........the mechanics. In this case.........it’s pure insanity.....I’m writing the checks, and bleeding........taking it from both ends........only proves I’m a level of insane rarely seen. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)