JV Puleo

My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project

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Hello Joe,

 

Better to have more flow than you need than less! You can always add restrictor plates etc. to the water passages.

Like I mentioned before - on the Wisconsin the lower water manifold pipes are 1-1/2 dia but at the flanges that connect to the 

blocks the opening is only 3/4" dia. in the pipe flange. 

 

I am pretty sure this was to slow the circulation down

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I'm sure you are right on that. The contemporary engineering manual I'm using specifically mentions that the pumps are designed to give relatively low circulation. Since I intend to incorporate a thermostat I'm not too worried about having too much circulation. I think the original water capacity was about 3 to 3-1/2 gallons so 4 gal. per minute is probably too much. My water passages go from 1" to 3/4" (from pump to blocks) and from 3/4 to 1" (blocks to radiator) That comes from copying the original fittings. I never had the tubes but a couple of the fittings were still on the blocks and I do have the original radiator although it is in poor condition. I am planning to make a cartridge core radiator which will have a larger capacity than the original so I may be able to hold as much as 4 gallons.

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Hello Mr. Puleo, I have been following your thread anonymously for years. I am fascinated by your efforts to make this Mitchell engine run again. But I have a question about the big picture here. Where are you in this restoration? What parts do you still have to make to run this engine? Are you going going to restore the entire car so it is driveable? What have you completed and what do you still have to do on the car itself? ( other than the engine). Do you have a goal of when the whole project will be finished?  Thanks, Tom Boehm

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Posted (edited)

I think the engine is easily the most challenging part of the job, especially as I suspect it is associated with the chassis (although it is the right engine) and was both incomplete and much of what was there in poor condition. For that, I still need to finish the pistons, make the connecting rods, make bearing shells and do the Babbitt work. I'm sure there must be a dozen more items to be addressed but those are the big ones. I think that, after the engine is back together, the chassis itself will not be as big a challenge but we'll see. Of course I'd like it to be driveable but I have no fixed time frame in mind. It would be pointless because I am hopeless at estimating how much time something will take. I will have to build a body too so I'm guessing I have at least 6 or 8 more years work here.

 

But, I've nowhere to go in any case. I have little interest in the local car shows and don't own a trailer or anything to pull one with. Anywhere it goes will have to be under it's own power. I'm really more interested in doing a good job than I am in the finished product. Here's the chassis and rear axle...

 

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I'll have to make a radiator as the one I have is in poor shape and I'm still looking for a decent pair of seats although I've found most of the parts I started looking for 6 years ago.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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While I'm waiting for the 12L14 to come in I went on with the lathe repairs. I opened the hole in the 44 tooth gear up .002 with a barrel lap.

 

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Then drilled and tapped two holes for 3/8-16 cap screws. This way if it gets stuck it will be easy to pull off with a steering wheel puller.

 

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I also took the water pump apart and gouged out the areas where I think the leak is coming from.

 

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Though I forgot to take a picture, I filled these with Devcon aluminum putty - similar to JB weld but the industrial strength stuff. It takes the best part of 24 hours to set so I can smooth it out until tomorrow.

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The aluminum Devcon smoothed out. Since the impeller doesn't touch this I left a little extra on the surface.

 

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This is the dividing head in the vertical position. I've never used it this way because you have to use a chuck that screws on to the spindle - which is why I'm making one now.

 

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The piece of metal I've been waiting for is now overdue...odd because another piece I ordered at the same time from the same supplier arrived Monday. In the meantime I've been fiddling with the pump.

I started by putting a notch in the pump shaft for the set screw. I had intended to use a Woodruff key as well but in thinking about it, I can't see that the stresses are great enough to warrant it.

 

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When I tightened the cap screws on the circumference it tightened the pump just enough to make it hard to turn so I relieved the impeller about .005 on the OD and about .015 in thickness.

 

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I reassembled the pump and ran it for 15 minutes.

 

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It's actually running in the picture but the shutter speed of the point & shoot camera is so fast it stops the action. As far as I can see, there are no leaks in the pump although the connections to the vinyl tubing leave something to be desired. It's still a bit tighter than I'd like but I'm thinking I'll let it run for a couple of hours and see if it loosens up a little.

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Posted (edited)

I ran the pump for two hours today with no leaks so I think I've probably solved that set of problems. UPS is still dithering with my piece of 12L14 - so I decided to tackle another job I had waiting in the wings. The priming cups. This engine uses right angle primers which are a lot less common than the straight ones and in as much as I've seen, frightfully expensive. I bought a set about three years ago - sight unseen on ebay while I was in England. When I got home I realized they were the wrong thread so I've been fishing about for a way to use them.

 

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I started to make little adapters...then realized that I could use the ones I already had if I counterbored them to 1/2". The first step was to make a tool to hold them. Its just a piece of 1" bar with a 1/8 NPT threaded hole but it allows me to hold the piece in a 1" collet.

 

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Then I counterbored them with a 1/2" end mill to a depth of 1/2".

 

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That was easy. The next step was trickier. I made a similar tool with a 1/4 NPT thread, stripped the lever and spring from the primer and screwed it in. I had to grind a tool to get into the space between the hex and the flare of the cup and set a stop on the lathe so I wouldn't move it back too far and hit the cup.

 

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Then turned the hex and the threaded part of the primer down to 1/2".

 

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When I had the diameter correct, I cut it off at 1/2"

 

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Much to my satisfaction it slipped right into the counterbore so I soldered it in place.

 

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Then reassembled the primer and tried it in the engine.

 

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I think this is about as neat a job as I've ever done. Now I just have to do three more.

 

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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As always, Joe, you are not only doing some brass work but this little project shows for everyone to see, (and it does look very suitable)!

Al

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All done. It took much of the day because they had to be done one at the time but it was worth the effort.

 

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It's starting to look like an engine.

 

Oh, and the material for the dividing head project finally arrived so tomorrow I'll be back on that. I'm actually grateful it took so long because otherwise I wouldn't have gotten to the priming cups.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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This morning I picked this up.

 

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It's a tapered end mill reground to the taper of the Bosch magneto shaft (which is a very odd size). I'll use it I make the "snap starter" (to use the term the inventor coined). Making the odd tapered hole, putting in a key way and broaching the corresponding key way will be interesting. I will probably take two or three special tools and I still have to think about those.

I also started on the backing plate for the dividing head.

 

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This is the 12L14 bar I was waiting for. This stuff machines very easily and threads beautifully. It is almost impossible to weld but very few things I make call for welding.

I drilled and bored to 1"

 

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Then, because the setup is identical, did the same thing to the bushing that will press into the backing plate.

 

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I then set the first piece up on centers for turning and threading. I don't do much this way but it's essential if you want the hole in the center to be absolutely concentric with the threads. It also has the added advantage of allowing you to take the piece out of the lathe, try it, and put it back. As long as the dog goes into the same slot it will have no effect. This is particularly useful if you are threading something that has to screw into a part that cannot be checked with the piece in the machine.

 

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Today I tried again at the dummy spindle nose for the dividing head...

The piece turned down to 1-3/4"

 

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And the relief the end of the thread milled. This 5TPI thread is so coarse that the depth of the cut is .130 and I have to use my largest threading tool. I'm not certain I've ever used it before but I'll need quite a bit of space at the end of the thread – too much to make the slot with the cut off tool.

 

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I forgot to take a picture of the threading operation. suffice it to say that with a thread this deep I had to take very small cuts because it's taking off a lot of surface with each cut. It was tedious but it came out just about perfect. Here it is with the spindle protector that came with the dividing head screwed on. I am very lucky to have this part because otherwise I'm not sure what I'd have used as a gauge to check the threads.

 

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I also dug out the original end of the crankshaft and starting handle. I've never cut the dog teeth because I simply couldn't think of a way to do it. I did find a drawing of the cutter that was used in the 1927 SAE handbook. I'm going to email that to the gentleman who re-cut the tapered end mills for me and have him make one. It turns out I'd been looking at it incorrectly and it isn't as much of a challenge as I'd thought - but you still need an odd end mill with a reverse taper.

 

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I didn't get much done today with a late start... but I did finish the dummy spindle for the dividing head. I knurled the end...

 

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And drilled a hole for a tommy bar should it get stuck when I'm threading it into the back plate.

 

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The whole thing came out pretty good. I started on the bushing for the backing plate but - and this should be a lesson to me - I'd written down one of the dimensions incorrectly and turned it down too much so tomorrow I'll have to start again.

 

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I made another bushing...

 

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And I mis-measured the hole again. This one was also too small but only by a few thousandths. Rather than do it a third time, I put a coarse knurl on it.

 

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And glued it into the hole with Locktite gell super glue. 

 

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While it was setting I cleaned up the mill. Then I put it in the chuck and faced it off. My only concern was that the Locktite might not hold it firmly enough but as I'd driven it in with a plastic hammer, it was tight enough. I faced it down until the two pieces were flush.

 

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Then took it out of the lathe and drilled two holes for Dutchmen.

 

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For this I used #4 tapered pins.

 

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That will hold the bushing very firmly in place. I might have second thoughts about this technique if the backing plate was going in a lathe but to hole a chuck on a dividing head it should be fine. I then put it back in the lathe and faced it off until everything was flush. Next I'll bore and thread the bushing but it's already 5 PM so I'll leave that for tomorrow. Now I'll go home and work on my book.

 

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Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Today I bored the hole out to be threaded.

 

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Without moving the piece, I set up the threading. This involved changing the drive gear and using this boring bar as a threading tool.  The thread is too deep for the little dedicated tool I use for most everything else. This is just a boring bar with a 1/4" tool ground to a 60-degree profile. I made it years ago to thread the backing plate that is holding the chuck in these pictures.

 

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It took time... I wanted the thread to be smooth as I'm not sure the lapping trick works all that well with an extremely coarse thread like this. Aside from being called out to help a friend whose car wouldn't start it went smoothly.

 

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I then counterbored it 1/2" to 1-3/4 because the threads end short on the dividing head spindle. Much to my satisfaction, it threaded on without any issues.

 

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I finished this about 3:30 but truth to tell, it left me so knackered (the result of the tension I always suffer when doing things like this) that I looked around for something easy and decided to start turning down the OD of the plate.

 

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As you can see, the threading gauge is also the tool for holding the plate.

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8 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

I finished this about 3:30 but truth to tell, it left me so knackered (the result of the tension I always suffer when doing things like this)

 

I am really pleased to read the above. I thought it was just me that suffered like that.

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Speaking of "emotional tension" while designing and completing a project.  That is probably an uncomfortable side effect of of what we do.  We want it right, so we brood and worry and rethink until we get the job done satisfactory.  Then we sit back and take a deep breath and and enjoy the fruits of our toil.  I am also no different!  Good  for you Joe and Mike.

Al

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I can see now why I put this job off for years...

I turned the OD of the backing plate to the OD of the chuck.

 

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The next part is the tricky bit... making the projection that actually centers the chuck on the plate. It has to be just about perfect. The chuck is metric so none of the measurements are easy for me to work with measuring in thousandths of an inch.

 

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With that done, I faced it again to get the correct depth.

 

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What doesn't show here is how long it takes as the lathe has to run at it's slowest speed to turn cast iron. Added to that, the expanding arbor doesn't hold tight enough to take terribly deep cuts and I couldn't use the regular arbor because it's too big to go through the hole in the center of the chuck and I wanted to be able to check the fit without taking the piece out of the lathe.

Now I have to drill holes for the attaching screws and mill those half threaded holes into slots for a hook spanner. I'm off tomorrow to go to an auction so chances are I won't get to that until the weekend.

 

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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It's not cars or machines... I'm going to look at a flint side--by-side double, supposedly by the gunmaker's I'm writing about. I suspect it may be a contemporary fake (that would be c. 1816–1820) but I can only tell if I take the barrels off so I've arranged with the gentleman who is organizing the sale to do that and photograph it.

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On 10/17/2019 at 7:21 PM, JV Puleo said:

It's not cars or machines... I'm going to look at a flint side--by-side double, supposedly by the gunmaker's I'm writing about. I suspect it may be a contemporary fake (that would be c. 1816–1820) but I can only tell if I take the barrels off so I've arranged with the gentleman who is organizing the sale to do that and photograph it.

Joe, I assume a double rifle or is it a Fowler? Now that is something I want to see pictures of and know more about. What’s pretty cool is a lot of the old car guys I talked with at Hershey this year are also old firearm collectors. From one “disease” to another! We have a sickness.😀

Edited by chistech (see edit history)
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DB Fowler...I think I've seen one English double flint rifle in almost 50 years of studying these things. But, this would be a poor example. There was something wrong with it I could not put my finger on but I have a lot of experience here - I've been doing this since I was 12 years old. In the middle of the night it came to me. A few years ago a friend in the UK published a series of books called "Notes around the gun trade" which is nothing more than copies of disjointed notebooks kept by an English enthusiast and school teacher from about the late 30s to the 50s. He hung around the Birmingham gun quarter and took down the stories told to him by the old timers. In one or more of these he refers to supplying "fake" old guns to seaside hotel owners who would hang one over the fireplace in the hotel and sell it to visiting Americans. As soon as they left, they pulled another one fro the closet and waited for another visitor. That's what I think the double I went to see was. It was made from old parts - which were plentiful in B'ham 80 years ago - but the markings and engraving were off although they would fool most collectors today and any member of the general public. The only reason I noticed was that I've been working on this very narrow area for 35 years.

 

And, just to keep this vaguely car-oriented we should remember the Henry Leland started out at the Springfield Armory during the Civil War. At the time is was, arguably the most technologically advanced manufacturing plant in the world. The Stevens-Duryea was manufactured by the the Stevens Arms & Implements Co., and around 1906 Winchester signed a contract to manufacture Hotchkiss cars (although this never came about). Hiram Percy Maxim - who's memoir "Horseless Carriage Days" is a classic designed the earliest Pope cars in Hartford. Maxim invented the Maxim Silencer and his father is best remembered for the Maxim Machine Gun. Colonel Pope's nephew (who he raised and sent to MIT) was the famous target rifle barrel maker Harry Pope.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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We are sure an interesting lot aren't we!  My problem is I like all antiquities, whether it be the house I live in, the cars I work on, the guns I collect and shoot, the shop equipment I choose to have in my shop and none the less a share of the farm equipment I choose to use.  I am still hopeful that I am not falling into the deep abyss that is called "hoarding", heaven forbid that notion.  I keep telling myself that there is a method to my madness, but sometimes, even I, am not sure what that method is!  Joe, keep up on your several genuine interests, the future is made better by people like you doing your small part whether it be having a good influence on your brother hobbyists or writing a book. 

Al

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Al...who decided that having a lot of something you like is a sickness? It was probably some brain dead reality TV producer who smokes pot and can't compose a coherent paragraph. There is a great deal to learn from have a lot of something. It's only that  way you can compare things...

About 30 years ago I worked on a book on the American Eagle Hilted Sword with the late EA Mowbray. Mr. M had about 400 of them and a huge amount of what we were able to deduce was the result of making comparisons over a long period of time. If you had a collection of 20, or 30 or even 50 you would never have been able to draw the conclusions that were obvious from having hundreds to work with.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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