JV Puleo

My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project

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So far things are going better than I could wish for. This is the technique I used for putting in the slots for the water passage. I realized late yesterday that I can't do it on the lathe with a grooving tool because it will catch in the holes. I'd forgotten about that so it's a good think I had this idea. I am milling them by mounting them on a mandrel and turning it under the end mill.

 

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It worked so sell that I finished both before I had a chance to get my first cup of coffee.

 

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Then I went on to fitting the water connection to the outer sleeve...

A pilot hole, then drilled out to 3/4"

 

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Then bored to .950 for a 1"-20 thread.

 

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Because I don't want the threads to show, I counter bored just slightly larger than 1" and just to the depth that will allow the threads to bottom on the lowest sides of the hole. This is really necessary because getting the tap to go in straight when the surface is curved is almost impossible - so it serves two purposes.

 

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Then I threaded it without moving the piece.

 

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I checked to see that it screwed in correctly and then coated the threads with flux and soldered it. It's effectively one piece now.

 

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The next step is to drill and ream it to remove the part of the water connection that is projecting into the inside surface. That presents another problem I hadn't anticipated...it won't fit in the 4-jaw chuck because the water connection is in the way so I will probably use the 3-jaw in the 4-jaw trick again.

 

 

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I put the 3-jaw in the 4-jaw chuck again. I indicated the the second chuck and then put the piece in. Surprisingly, it was right on but this is actually a very good 3-jaw that hasn't seen much use. It was given to me by a friend, a former shop teacher. He pulled it out of the dumpster when the geniuses in the school department closed the shop program, sold the machines and threw all the tooling away before the auction.

 

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I bored it very carefully, taking small cuts because the end of the water connection projects inside. I was going to take it out to a few thousandths under 1.250 and then ream it but I was getting such a good surface in the hole that I simply finished it with the boring bar. This is the inner sleeve inserted. There is about .002 clearance between the pieces.

 

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This is how it goes together....

 

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I also made up the little part you see on top of the water connection. It's the flange that will be soldered to the water tube. In this case, I had one left over from the earlier water connections that just needed to be reamed out to .875.

 

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I also decided that I'm not at all happy with the plugs in the holes of the large input sleeve... thus far, every part of this assembly has come out as close to perfect as I've ever done and I just can't abide using it with such a visible flaw. I drilled out the plugs that were there...

 

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And soldered in two 1/4NPT pipe plugs. I'm not certain this will work but if it doesn't I have enough 2" bar to make the piece over.

 

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The challenge here is that the OD has already been turned so I have to reduce those square ends without taking more than a few thousandths off the OD. I'll do try to do that tomorrow morning.

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I worked on the rescue of the large outer sleeve today, boring the inside until it was with a few thousandths of 1-3/8" and turning the outside down to get the plugs flush. I ended up loosing abut .004 on the diameter - not enough to give any consideration to. You can just about see them which is all I could hope for.

 

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Then into the milling machine to bore for the tube that connects to the radiator hose.

 

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And threaded 1-1/4-20.

 

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I tried to recut the threads on the tube that screws in here...and started them crooked so I'll make that part again tomorrow. It's pretty ironic (in a good way) that the only part I've made an un-fixable error on was also the simplest part. I'll make it a bit longer too. I had intended to do that in the first place but forgot my reasoning. I am a little concerned that all these added parts make the pump heavy so I'm thinking of incorporating a support of some sort for the line that goes to the radiator.

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This morning I made a new water inlet tube. I didn't bother photographing it because it's exactly the same as the one I made earlier but this time I got the threads right. It screwed right in.

 

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Then I soldered it in place. I couldn't use the camp stove because I didn't want to melt the solder that is holding the plugs in so I put it in the milling vise - which I hoped would act as a heat sink. I put a lump of heat stopping putty on top of the plugs and used my acetylene torch.

 

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You can see the solder on the threads. I made the threaded section too long...

 

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But I didn't realize that until I put it in the lathe to bore the inside.

 

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There wasn't enough clearance for the boring bar which presented a real problem because it was no too late to take it apart and modify something. I fished around for an answer and came up with this. I put a 1" end mill in the tail stock of the lathe and very gently ran it through the piece. This removed enough material to allow the boring bar to fit without touching the inner walls.

 

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It was then just a matter of boring it out until the inner sleeve fit. Which it did quite nicely.

 

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Here it is assembled on the inlet of the pump. Now that this is done I feel safe in having this welded to the pump body.

 

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Next I have to surface grind the ends of both inner and outer sleeves so that they are exactly the same height.

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What I hope will be the last step on these fittings was to grind them so that both sleeves are exactly the same height. To do this with the surface grinder I had to think of a way of holding the inner sleeve firm in the outer sleeve. This idea came to me late one night... I put both pieces on the surface plate and warmed them up with a heat gun. Then I rubbed some "sticky way" around the seam between the two pieces hoping some would capillary down. This way is used for making fillets in patterns. I bought it when I was making the pattern for the impeller but didn't use it because it came in too late. I used Bondo instead.

 

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It appeared to be working so I moved over to the grinder using this grinder vise I was given just about 3 weeks ago. Because the pieces are brass they aren't magnetic but the vise is steel and stick to the magnetic chuck just fine.

 

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The whole process worked extremely well. In fact, the job may not have taken much more time than it takes to post these pictures.

 

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I had planned to put a groove on the inside of the outer sleeve to align with the  water passage that was milled away but I think it would be a good idea to test it first. The groove might weaken the solder joint and there is a good chance I already have enough clearance for the water to flow freely. I won't try it unless I have to.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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These will be plates to go on either end of the pump to cover the seal and provide a surface for the thrust nearing I will be putting there. The plates will be brass but I've found that turning something this thin (they are 1/8" thick) is easier if I do it between two other pieces. It largely eliminates the burr you'd get otherwise and it's much easier to use the micrometer to measure the diameter.

 

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Mounted on a stub arbor with the brass piece in the center.

 

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And turned to the finished diameter. If I had a working band say I'd have knocked the corners off first.

 

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It goes on the pump like this.

 

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I then made the cover for the other side.

 

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I had another one of those days when I spent the entire day on what I would have guesses was a two-hour job, fitting the brass plates that will cover the seals on the ends of the pump. I started by taking .100 of the input hub. It was thicker than it needed to be and I'm trying to get as much room as I can between the pump and the magneto.

 

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Then I set the whole thing up in the mill to drill the holes - only to discover there wasn't enough clearance to tap them while the piece was secure in the rotary table. so, I took it all apart and set it up on the drill press.

 

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After that, it went pretty smoothly. Here's the small end...

 

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And the big end.

 

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Tomorrow morning I'm off to see the welder.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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I dropped the input side of the pump off with the welder this morning and didn't get in until noon. After putting away some of the stuff I used yesterday I started on the impeller. Here it is indicated (using that boss in the center which was included in the casting expressly for this purpose). I drilled and reamed to 3/4"

 

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Then flipped it around and faced the bottom.

I also turned the OD just enough to get it perfectly round.

 

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And put in a set screw. In its final form it will have both a set screw and a woodruff key.

 

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The set screw allows me to use a piece of 3/4 ground stock as a mandrel and exactly replicate the pump shaft.

 

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So that I was now able to turn the OD to the final size. Its still about .054 big but its the end of the day and I decided to leave this fussy bit for tomorrow morning.

 

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I finished the OD of the impeller this morning but I can't trim to the proper height until I get the rear plate back from the welder - that should be tomorrow.

 

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Then, because I didn't want to waste the day, I started on the adjustable coupling that will attach the water pump drive shaft to the pump. I'll have to post the illustration from PM Heldt later this evening so you can get an idea what's going on here. This piece of brass is something I bought some time ago to make an impeller - before I decided to go to aluminum.

 

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I indicated it and faced it off. Unfortunately there is a hole in the center and it is very far from concentric with the outside OD. This presents a problem because you can't drill it. The drill will want to follow the hole and in this case it's way off center. I put a 5/8" end mill in the tail stock of the lathe and very carefully "drilled" it. End mills are not made for this and you have to be very careful not to push it too hard. It's very easy to jam it by getting too big a chip on the end. You can see here just how far off the original hole was.

 

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It did work...and from this point I drilled and reamed it to 3/4".

 

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Then each piece went on the expanding arbor to face off both sides.

 

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This is the finished product. There is still a lot of material to remove and the diameter has to be reduced.

 

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This is what I'm making...

 

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An adjustable flanged coupling. One flange has 18 holes in it, the other has 20 holes but in both cases there are two holes exactly a 180 degrees from each other. If you move the driven part one hole in relation to the driving part it advances the timing 2 degrees. This should allow nearly unlimited adjustment of the ignition timing relative to the valve timing. The problem is that I only have 1-1/2" to work with for both flanges and they have to align with each other perfectly. Another advantage is that, as originally constructed, you'd have to remove the magneto driving gear in the front of the engine to service the water pump so if this works it should be an all-round improvement.

 

This is from Heldt's Gasoline Automobile, 1911.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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The hubs of the adjustable coupling are almost the same size as the nut on my stub arbor so I started by turning that down about .050...just to get a little clearance.

 

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And just as I started on that, the welder called to say the pump was ready so I closed up and went to get it. This time the weld looks better. It's still more prominent than I'd like and I haven't decided if it's worth the effort to smooth it out (the last one taking a week)... I have to think about that but it was an ordeal and I'm not sure it's worth the effort.

 

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The adjustable flange will go in the space between the front bearing mount (for the water pump/magneto drive shaft) and the rear mount which holds the water pump. Getting it all in there will take some careful fitting so I've left a little extra metal on both ends of the flanges pieces. It's a bit of a fiddle trying it too because I don't have either of the caps then went on these brackets.

 

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I decided I'd best get the flanges to the point where I can put them aside for the time being before I went back to the pump. As you can see - a lot of metal was removed.

 

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I also miscalculated the OD but, as luck would have it, a friend stopped in and I was able to get him to hold a piece while I measured. The actual OD of the flange will be 2.8". This one is 3.4". I turned the 2nd' one to 3" and when the holes for the set screws are drilled and tapped I will turn them down together to the finished size. That way, even if they are out by a few thousandths they will be identical.

 

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I turned the big plate down to 3" to match the smaller one

 

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Then drilled and tapped holes for set screws. They will also get Woodruff keys opposite the set screws.

 

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Then put both pieces together in the lathe and turned them to the finished OD.

 

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I also checked to make sure the OD clears the block and the head of the bolt on the left front engine mount.

They are still oversize on both ends but I can't adjust that until I'm able to assemble the parts on the engine. Except for the key ways and drilling the holes this is as far as I can go until I have line bored the on the crankcase and fitted bushings. Drilling the holes, however, presents a new problem because I don't think it can be done accurately enough with the rotary table. To work, it has 38 holes that have to align perfectly in any combination. This is a job that calls for the dividing head but to use that I will have to make a backing plate for the little chuck that screws on to the head. That's a relatively complicated job (though no more complicated than Mike McCartney's 5C adapter). I've been putting off doing it for at least 5 years but have, at least, found some of the bits I'll need. Brown & Sharpe used a 1-3/4-5 thread on these and the chance of finding a chuck with a backing plate in that size is just about zero.

 

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So, I went back to the pump, setting it up in the mill to remove the section of tube that projects into the water passage and, hopefully, clean up some of the rough surface.

 

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It worked better than I'd expected, leaving me wondering what I did wrong the first time.

 

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Now I have to finish the impeller and make some gaskets at which point I should be able to test it.

 

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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The aluminium welding this time looks a lot better than last time. Do the holes have to be that accurate if the holes on one side were slightly oversize? My only attempt at using my dividing head was trying to cut gears for the 1899 Perks and Birch (Singer) motor wheel tricycle. It was on that 'cheapo' bench mounted Clarke Drill/Mill, it turned out a disaster, as I ended up with the last tooth being a half a tooth! I think I was a bit ambitious attempting something like that with my very limited machining knowledge. After following your machining work over the last 15-months, putting into practise your ideas and help, I am sure I will do better next time.

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There isn't much room for oversize holes. If the holes are 1/4", twenty of them equals 5 inches of circumference. If I drill them on a 2-5/16 circle, I have .113 between the holes. The OD of the piece is 2.8" which allows just enough for the heads of the bolts and nuts if there is room for them. I'm undecided as to whether to use through bolts or thread one of the plates. I may do both so there are lock nuts.

 

My first dividing head project came out surprisingly well. It's a gear on the inside of the apron of the lathe that has now been in everyday use for something like 8 years. That said, it is very easy to make a mistake.

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I reassembled the pump today to get a measurement for the height of the impeller.

 

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Then faced the end off to match,

 

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Then I pressed the bushing into the input side.

 

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I had to turn the bushing on the output side down a bit to make room for the seal.

 

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Then I assembled it. I had hoped to test it today but this is fiddly work. The pump is tight and I'm not sure what is binding it up. It is probably just that the busnings on either end of the pump shaft are not in perfect alignment although they cant be out more and a few thousandths because everything went together. I think that is pretty much to be expected so tomorrow I'll keep at it and hopefully have it ready to test by the end of the day.

 

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I put an 8" sheave on that shaft to get some leverage. It isn't binding, actually it's turning very smoothly without any rubbing sounds. It's just a bit tight, probably from the seals rubbing.

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I took my time and finished setting up the test stand this morning.

 

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The only glitch was that I can't find the flat rubber O rings that seal the output coupling. I used a little pile of fiber washers instead - it's not perfect but it worked. I got a tiny drip but I'm certain with the correct seal in place it will be fine. That was really important because I've never been able to test these before and I used them on the engine as well. The output was somewhat gentler than it was the last time. Not having a flow meter, or knowing what the flow should be, this is a matter of guessing but I think that as long as the water is moving I should be OK. The vinyl tubing has a larger diameter than the copper tubing the water will be flowing through so in use the pressure  slightly higher.

 

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I only had one leak that is cause for concern - at the lower edge of the output tube. I had anticipated this but it was impossible to tell, from the inside of the pump, if it would leak. I have an idea of how to fix it but I thought I'd wait until I'd tested it first - there was no point of fixing it if it wasn't a problem.

 

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The problem is the relief I cut for the threads on this piece. Had I come up with the technique of doing a stopped thread at the time I made this, I wouldn't have this problem but once assembled it isn't practical to take it apart. I could have it welded like the last one but I like the look of it without the weld bead so I'll try my other fix first. The pump ran very quietly and smoothly There was no noise except the motor and none of the seals leaked at the ends or around the edges so I'm convinced the basic design is sound. The original pump was both smaller and purposely designed to decrease the flow ... keeping it down so that the water had time to cool when going through the radiator.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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On ‎9‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 9:09 PM, JV Puleo said:

Not having a flow meter, or knowing what the flow should be, this is a matter of guessing but I think that as long as the water is moving I should be OK.

 

Joe, I maybe telling my mother to suck eggs, but - you can calculate the flow by timing, in seconds, the flow from the plastic tube back into a pint, quart, litre or gallon container and work out the flow in litres per minute, gallons per hour or whatever you want.

 

This link may help?

 

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/coolant-flow-rate.566125/

 

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That is a good idea and I'm feeling clunky for not thinking of it. I'll need to find a stopwatch. It would also be useful to find some period flow figures... all of those in the link naturally presume modern engines and are predicated on horsepower figures that aren't easily converted to 1910 specifications. But, it's worth following up. At the very least I'll find out what the flow rate is.

 

jp

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Years back I dug a shallow well for my irrigation system and my well guy gave me a old school pitcher pump to screw onto the pipe/point. He told me to pump the water into five gallon buckets and count how many buckets/gallons I could fill in one minute. When I did it twice, I came up with 17 gallons in a minute and I called him to tell him so. So I put a jet pump on capable of 15 gals per minute and my sprinkler system works great.

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Posted (edited)

To make a backing plate for a chuck you need something to gauge the threads with. When you are doing it for a lathe with a threaded spindle you obviously can't use the actual spindle because it's on the lathe and the part you are threading is attached to it. Making one for the dividing head is much the same so yesterday I started on the dummy spindle. I didn't have the material I wanted to use (12L14) so I took a chance and use a piece of mystery metal I had. Most of the time that works out but this time it didn't. I got to this point...

 

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and discovered that it threaded very poorly. To match the dividing head I have to cut a 1-3/4-5 thread - an unusual size to say the least. My lathe can do it but it requires changing one of the drive gears and cutting a thread this course turns up a lot of burrs. In this case, the threading tool actually stuck in one of the threads, it turned slightly on the mandrel and screwed up (pun intended) the result. So, I broke down and ordered the right stuff - it should be here by the end of the week or maybe Monday. In the meantime I found a chuck backing plate I think I can use in my box of miscellaneous machine parts I've saved over the years. It's too large in every dimension, including the hole in the center so to fix that I will press in a big steel bushing to bore and thread. Luv2wrench will like this because it is exactly the same technique I used to fix the bull gear on his lathe - which is also why I know it works.

 

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I'm boring it out to 2.125 which will allow plenty of room for the smaller thread I have to cut.

 

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I did get a good finish on the inside but you bore cast iron in back gears meaning that the lathe is running extremely slowly. It actually takes 20 minutes to make a single pass although you can take deeper cuts than you would with any other material. I've one more pass to make and I can put it aside.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

I took Mike's suggestion and calculated the flow rate. I get 4 gal per minute at 862 RPM - about 25MPH if my figures are accurate. How that converts to cooling capacity I don't know, especially as I haven't made a radiator yet but I'm guessing it is right in the ball park. One formula I saw in the link Mike M provided was to divide the HP by 3 to get the rate of flow in liters. I used 50HP - which I'm certain is much more than it originally generated and came up with 16 liters. Four gallons is slightly more than 15 liters. But, everything I've seen on the internet is aimed at modern cars which run much hotter than brass cars so, if that is a valid formula, I probably have excess capacity.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

The finished hole in the backing plate. It's only about .001 oversize so I'm pleased with how it came out. I won't have the material to go on with this until late Monday so I'm fixing a problem with the lathe. Notice the flaw in the casting that showed up when I was boring. Fortunately, it isn't important and when the bushing is pressed in will be gone forever.

 

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In order to cut the 5TPI thread I have to replace a 22 tooth gear with a 44 tooth gear. (You set the gearbox to 10 TPI and use the bigger gear which halves the rotation of the lead screw.) I've taken this gear off before but it is a real bear. I'd pulled the entire drive unit out of the lathe and knocked the center pin out with a plastic hammer. I don't like doing things that way so I made this an aluminum sleeve that can be squeezed on to the gear so I can get a gear puller on it. The gear fits flush against another gear so It is impossible to get the gear puller behind it.

 

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It wouldn't work with a bigger gear and I doubt it would work if the gear was really tight but it did suffice in this case.

 

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I measured the hole in the gear and find it's about .004 over 1". I'd reamed the hole in the 44 tooth gear so it's really too tight to slip on. Tomorrow I'll lap it to smooth out the ID and get it just a bit bigger. I may put some threaded holes in it to so I can get it off with a three-leg puller.

 

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This gear was missing when I got the lathe. Probably it was never used and misplaced long ago. I found this one on ebay. I had to bore it out and put the key way in but that's a lot easier than cutting the gear from scratch.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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13 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

I get 4 gal per minute at 862 RPM - about 25MPH

 

That sounds fine. If the flow is too much it does not give the coolant enough time to absorb the heat and you end up with hot spots and boiling when you turn off the engine.

 

Wow Joe, that gear puller is very ingenious.

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