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My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project


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I'm finally back to my engine. I was able to get the material to make the hard fiber washers. It's actually a vulcanized rubber sheet. Apparently referring to as "fiber" is old fashioned which kept me from locating a source. I bought 2 pieces, 12" x 12" and cut one into 2" strips.

 

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Then into 2" squares and punched the 15/16 holes. Because I had a short piece of copper, I made 4 ore of those as well although if the fiber works as I think it will I won't be using them.

 

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Then on to the fixture and turned down to an OD of 1.4"

 

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I had more squares than would fit on the fixture so I made a few more, this time without the copper to stiffen the ends. It did not make any difference.

 

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All done...

 

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That was so successful I went ahead and made the 13/1`6 ID version.

 

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These have been a lot of work for a gasket but they came out as close to perfect as anything I've ever made and, realistically, you can't take any chances with the oil connections...a place where failure would really be catastrophic.

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17 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

I'm finally back to my engine. I was able to get the material to make the hard fiber washers. It's actually a vulcanized rubber sheet. Apparently referring to as "fiber" is old fashioned which kept me from locating a source. I bought 2 pieces, 12" x 12" and cut one into 2" strips.

 

IMG_3421.thumb.JPG.7df5a95723b697b8a037869522f48ece.JPG

 

Then into 2" squares and punched the 15/16 holes. Because I had a short piece of copper, I made 4 ore of those as well although if the fiber works as I think it will I won't be using them.

 

IMG_3422.thumb.JPG.b0f765526274bb72675b96415c715a4e.JPG

 

Then on to the fixture and turned down to an OD of 1.4"

 

IMG_3423.thumb.JPG.8a9b106a905fc4ac990abb42f33c1c82.JPG

 

IMG_3424.thumb.JPG.775a01edfbf7e29c7781ca5620a5f673.JPG

 

I had more squares than would fit on the fixture so I made a few more, this time without the copper to stiffen the ends. It did not make any difference.

 

IMG_3425.thumb.JPG.8dbb8d95e29013091e535aa427525b5b.JPG

 

All done...

 

IMG_3426.thumb.JPG.aabc429a4bc386f9a135e252ed7e444f.JPG

 

That was so successful I went ahead and made the 13/1`6 ID version.

 

IMG_3427.thumb.JPG.7dbb320ecaaaa981fc0011bd8987505e.JPG

 

These have been a lot of work for a gasket but they came out as close to perfect as anything I've ever made and, realistically, you can't take any chances with the oil connections...a place where failure would really be catastrophic.

 

I think industry is gun shy of describing anything as " fiber " these days after the asbestos debacle.

Greg

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I'm finally back to the Mitchell engine but while I'm testing for oil leaks I started on another little project for one of our members. When it's further along I'll share the process but the first thing was to make taper turning attachment. I have one that is probably good for rough tapers but in this case I want real "micrometer" adjustment and though to make one out of this boring head. I bought this years ago when I first started looking for one. It was relatively cheap on ebay but I didn't realize how big it was. It was much too big for the mill I had at the time and the shank was very tightly screwed in. Last night I came up with a plan to unscrew it... first I drilled a 1/2" hole through it.

 

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Then clamped it down to the table of the mill and put a 1/2" grade 8 bolt in the hole.

 

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I had to hammer on the bolt to start it moving. It looks like they used Locktite or some other thread locker but I didn't want to heat it as the internal parts of one of these heads are very fine. Fortunately that worked a charm.

 

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I have a 4MT arbor coming to replace the straight one... when I get this together and can test it you'll see how it will work. This is the 2nd boring head I bought and didn't use. The first got made into the radius turning attachment so I've managed to salvage two of my errors.

 

While I was doing this I drained the oil from the engine then flipped it over.

 

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When I removed the oil lines I discovered that I'd forgotten one of the gaskets and that was the connection that was weeping so it looks like I am on the right track. The new fiber gaskets fit perfectly and you can see how much difference there is in surface area.

 

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I put it all back together, being careful to clean up as much oil as I could. I want all the connections dry so if they do leak I'll be able to see it. I also had the idea of laying a piece of brown wrapping paper under it so that if there is a drip, it will show immediately. This was about two or three hours ago and thus far all is fine.

 

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Of course it will leak...but if you try to make it leak-free then it won't leak very much. The drip oiler for the tail end of the crankshaft will certainly leak a bit and I'm still wondering about the oil pump. I lapped the surfaces and put it together without gaskets but if I can make some very thin paper gaskets I'll add them. I have some .003 thick 100% rag paper to make them from.

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19 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

Of course it will leak...but if you try to make it leak-free then it won't leak very much. The drip oiler for the tail end of the crankshaft will certainly leak a bit and I'm still wondering about the oil pump. I lapped the surfaces and put it together without gaskets but if I can make some very thin paper gaskets I'll add them. I have some .003 thick 100% rag paper to make them from.


I have had problems with thin paper gaskets...........shim stock would be more stable, and should work well..........

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Posted (edited)

One small drip. Though it isn't clear from the picture, its directly under the plug in the front banjo fitting. The oil is probably weeping around the threads. I did not put pipe dope on the threads but will when final assembly comes around so it looks as if this has worked. Still, I'll give it a few more days. In the meantime I'm re-doing all the plumbing in my house and working on a special job. Tonight I'll make some preliminary drawings. I'll share the job when I start actually making things...

 

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The material also came in to make new spring shackels but I may leave that aside until the next time I'm stuck waiting for materials.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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My success making those acme nuts seems to have gone to my head because I asked Edinmass if I could take a crack at making the water pump shaft for his 1917 White...and he accepted! I have the shaft in order to take measurements and make a drawing. I'll send it back as soon as that's done so Ed can get the car back on the road. Then I'll start on the shaft itself. When Ed said is was the most complicated part like this he's ever seen he was not kidding. I've never seen anything like it. It was made in one piece with a 20-tooth helical gear at one end. The surfaces are ground rather than lathe turned. It's certainly a challenge, but I've now had two or three days to think about it and I am pretty sure I can do it...but, only time will tell. Here's the drawing as of now. There are still some dimensions to work out because it will be necessary to change it a little in order to be doable on my machines. The helical gear may be a challenge but I've made spur gears before so I am pretty sure I can handle this.

 

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I also started on my spring shackles. I'm not sure how far I'll progress with those before I go back to the Mitchell engine but they are a relatively straight forward project that does not inspire much angst so, in a sense, it's relaxing work.

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It’s just my luck to buy a car who’s water pump shaft looks like it came off the fuel transfer pump on the space shuttle. Joe has been nothing but fantastic to work with, and he’s as enthusiastic about the car and this project as I am. When I started the White project I was concerned with a dozen other things........and what jumps up and bites you in the ass? A water pump shaft made of unobtainumum. I have 100 percent faith in Joe’s skill set. And look forward to watching him make this shaft on this page.......Joe........consider it a command perf for the members. Please keep us updated on your thoughts and progress. 👍👍👍

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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What is it that threads into the hole in the drive gear/shaft?

 

Is there a spring-tensioned assembly  against a bearing surface on the front cover to help control thrust generated by the helical drive gear?

 

My first thought was the gear could be made separately but I don't think that would work.

 

Interesting.

 

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What screws in the end is just a funny sized bolt with an extended head that acts as an end play adjustment on the gear pushing on an adjustment bolt in thr timing cover. There is no evidence that the two parts have ever made contact. I think if the shaft and it’s parts are properly shimmed, the gear can’t float enough to move in either direction. Trust me, this thing is ten times more complicated than it appears. 

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Posted (edited)

That is encouraging. Helical gears produce thrust (I forget whether it's in the direction of the helix or opposite) so this is just an elaborate means of eliminating that end thrust. It makes sense in a convoluted way. As someone who often thinks of the complicated way of doing things, I like it! You can see the mark left by a shim behind the gear so it was perfectly adjusted when new and has never been apart.

 

There is a hole in the shaft about 2-3/4" from the end. I'm guessing it must be for a pin that retains the impeller. The question is, is a tapered pin or a straight pin and what is the exact diameter. It looks like a 1/4" pin but it's actually smaller and the length of the hole (the diameter of the shaft) is such that it's difficult to get an accurate measurement regarding taper. I don't have the super precise small hole micrometers that are usually needed for measuring a hole like this but if you mic the pin we'll have the answer.

 

Who in the world would have guessed that a water pump shaft could be so complicated but this is the sort of problem that makes fixing really old cars interesting..oh, and I looked up that Snap-on induction heater. I really like that and may buy one.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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The pin is a straight one......and I have pin gauges at the shop so when it gets back I can measure it for you. The heater is FANTASTIC........

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I now see why the gear and shaft are one piece. That sure is one problematic shaft ! I would be very tempted to have the

original ground undersize  and hard chromed / ground to finished size as a repair. Over the years on ships I have seen a number 

of complicated hydraulic system parts saved with a hard chrome / precision  grinding operation. 

 

Greg

 

 

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1 hour ago, 1912Staver said:

I now see why the gear and shaft are one piece. That sure is one problematic shaft ! I would be very tempted to have the

original ground undersize  and hard chromed / ground to finished size as a repair. Over the years on ships I have seen a number 

of complicated hydraulic system parts saved with a hard chrome / precision  grinding operation. 

 

Greg

 

 

 

 

GREG......Thats a good way to repair it IF YOU TRUST the chrome and grinding shop...........I don't trust any of them........thus I rather make an entire new unit. 

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I am a bit surprised that none of them live up to your standards. Some of the marine parts I have seen repaired this way are amazing. Think hydraulic winches for anchor chains, { the winch weighs about 15 tons } C.P prop systems with up to 24" shafts and 20,000 Shaft H.P.

Also a good friend who is by far the best machinist I know spent a number of years in the aviation industry grinding re - hard chromed landing gear legs and turbine parts. All the way up to 747. He worked for a major overhaul  shop here in Vancouver.

They were good enough that they even did U.S. Military contract repairs on engine { turbine } components. 

They did their own chroming in house , but the marine jobs I have seen used one of the Vancouver area commercial hard chrome shops. There must be someone in your area certified to handle marine or aerospace work.

No slight on Joe but that gear  on the shaft is a serious complication.

 

I have seen several repairs on components like the ones below done with hard chrome.

Greg

 

 

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Posted (edited)

The problem is finding shop that can do it and will do it. Repairing big hydraulic equipment or government contracts are one thing but the companies that do that sort of thing are rarely, if ever interested in a one-off unusual part from a customer that is not likely to give them more work or if they do, the same sort of work. By making it over from scratch we avoid having to do anything to the original except clean it up. It will work and we're not taking any chances of damaging it. From my perspective, there is much less anxiety involved in making a part when you know that if you make an error you can always do it again.

 

I'll add that if Ed hasn't been able to find a shop he trusts they must be very rare.

I've known about the technique for a long time but I've never found anyone who could or would do it...

 

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Joe is correct.......too many bums who can do anything, and then they loose your part. I know guys at Sikorsky, Hamilton standard, United technologies, and Raytheon.  They can’t touch anything under 100 grand and it will take a year. I’d rather not give  my parts to a weekend alcoholic and drug addict who dropped it in the trash and says oops. I much rather half assed fix it and have it in my control. If I lived in the heartland where people work on agricultural and equipment all the time it would be different.  They still work for a living with their hands. When you live on the coast there’s nothing but incompetence and excuses.  If I had unlimited time I could get it ground and then welded and then ground again and then plated, it would take six months. And a bunch of ass kissing. Joe likes the challenge,  he’s a master craftsman, we both appreciate wonderful cars, and I’m not concerned about him losing it or throwing it away. I’ve been in this hobby a long time and I have worked on an awful lot of stuff. I’m pretty sure who I can trust and who I can’t. I can come up with ten Pierce Arrow engines. If the shaft is lost or destroyed it will cost me $25,000 to make it from scratch without it blowing the engine. So I’ll do it my way, i’ll sleep at night, and  it will be done to my satisfaction. I’d rather not drive the car for eight months then  having to deal with the lost or damage shaft. I’ve seen all the headaches way too many times to just jump into the water. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Wow Gary...I'm going to take a bunch of pictures on Saturday so I have them for reference after I've sent it back I will post one so we can compare it but that is fantastic.

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Point taken. Yes, small one off jobs are not likely to be taken seriously by a big aerospace shop.  My friend used to do all his own motorcycle fork legs when he worked at the aircraft shop.

But as time went by they were bought out by one of the very large ,German turbine company's. Even as shop foreman it became very difficult to get " home jobs " in and out under the radar.

He has retired 5 years ago and sold off his Jag's and most of his racing M.C.'s . Still a couple of Parilla's and a Manx Norton. But mostly racing Pigeons these days. A really low stress/ low budget  retirement.

 

 

 

Greg

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Posted (edited)

Here's the drawing, updated yesterday. (I was out of the shop today on family business.) The exact calculation of the taper on the end is still a question. I think it must be 1.5:12 - and inch and a half in 12 inches. That was the SAE taper and it was adopted in 1914 but my measurements don't work out exactly. That said, it's very difficult to measure a taper, getting the exact diameter at both ends. I use a dial vernier caliper because it has knife edges but with this sort of measurement .010 makes a big difference. The solution I've come up with is to make two samples and send them to Ed to compare with the piece the shaft attaches to. I presume it's an Oldham coupling or a mag coupling...we'll find out exactly what it is before we try to do the real shaft.

 

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Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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How important are the two counterbores at the gear end ? What threads into the  1.25 " thread ?

  Could these counterbores be reduced in size { use a smaller diameter fastener }and then leave enough shaft material that the gear could be a seperate ,

pressed on part ?  Just thinking of a way to avoid doing it all in one piece. Possibly turning the gear into something that can be purchased from 

Boston Gear or similar.

 

Greg

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Here is the piece that screws into the end of the shaft. It is to control spend play, using a adjustment bolt on the front of the timing cover. 

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Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

Ed is sending me the part the screws into the front end. I'll know more when I see it but it doesn't look as if the hole at the base of the counterbore has to be have to be as big or as deep as it is. I'm hoping that I can use a 11/16 reamer through the gear and thread the hole 3/4-16. I will make the shaft and the gear separately and screw the shaft in. If the gear turns clockwise - which is likely - that's all I'll have to do. If it turns counter clockwise I'll pin it or thread a hole into it, use a set screw and then plug the hole. The shaft and gear will effectively be one piece but this allows me to use 3/4 ground stock for the shaft. The 1-3/8 dia. part also has a ground surface. I've two possible ways of attacking that...either I'll send it to a friend who has cylindrical grinding machines or I'll use my tool post grinder. If I use the tool post grinder I'll do an experiment first to make sure I can get the required finish and tolerance...but as I've never used one of those (and I have two of them), it's about time I learned.

 

Boston Gear, Martin Gear etc are all out. the stock helical gears all have a 45-degree helix. These gears have a 20-degree helix. They would be a custom job no matter who made them.

 

Judging from Ed's comment, all this should be possible. I will probably replicate the piece Ed is sending with the thread I use for the shaft just to make things easy...

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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The piece I just posted does not show any signs of having come into contact with the set screw in the cover.......I believe the proper shimming of the pump Shaft in the housing prevents the gear from floating too much. Here is a shot from the owners manual showing the gear, all the way on the left. Notice the engine number in the photo, #117. My car is engine number 87, and they built at least 137 of them. Today there are at least three and possibly a fourth. The correct name for the missing part a Joe is waiting for is number 14.......gear shaft plug.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Excellent! Since it's flat on the top it's clear that the depth of the threaded hole and the actual thread have no effect on anything. As long as it goes in and is the right length, we're all set. This is getting better all the time. It does look as if the water pump shaft turns counter clockwise.

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I agree with the counter clockwise rotation. Glad something is easier than you expected.......it’s about time with all the kicks in thr teeth the car has been giving us. 👍

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Posted (edited)

True enough but to anyone seriously interested in early automotive engineering this is really a once-in-a-ifetime opportunity... a rare car, beautifully made in as near untouched condition as is imaginable...in fact, unimaginable in the real world. How it avoided being "restorated" in the 50s and 60s is a miracle in itself. I've seen several fantastic unrestored cars, a 1909 Packard, 1911 48 HP Locomobile, 1910 Stevens Duryea, 1921 SG Oxford tourer...etc but likely never one as complete and unaltered from new as this one. It's as good as the 28 Franklin I went to see in my neighborhood when I was in HS...put up on blocks in 1941 and still on them in a beautifully kept, clean barn (aside from a light coating of dust...Dr. Marshall kept his outbuildings in perfect condition) with the original tires still holding air and the sales brochure from the Franklin dealer, with the car circled, in the driver's door pocket.

Edited by JV Puleo
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Thanks Joe........I agree, the car is a time warp......and that it escaped the ravages of the early hobby was very fortunate. It was a close call. I’m sure the bad magneto is what saved it from a terrible fate. If it received a little bit more attention in the 50’s and 60’s it sure would have made life easier to reawaken it. The only obvious service it received sometime in the past was having the oil pan cleaned........otherwise there is no evidence that anything else was ever touched. The factory cotter pins are in place in virtually every bolt.......most of the hardware on the car has split pins securing all the fasteners. Since it has the strange bolt threads, it’s easy to determine if anything was ever disturbed. Besides tires, hoses, and a few other items, the car is exactly as it was assembled. It’s as clean underneath as it is on top. Too bad the varnish finish didn’t hold up over the decades. A mid 20’s repaint would have held up ten times better......but we take what we can get. 👍

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The gear dimensions seem odd.  If the o.d. of the gear is 2.868" and the tooth depth is 0.265", then the pitch circle diameter D1 is 2.868-0.265=2.603".  This yields a diametral pitch of 20 teeth/2.603" = 7.683 teeth per inch of pitch circle diameter.  Usually gears are cut using rational numbers, like a 10-pitch gear having 10 teeth per inch of pitch circle diameter.  That allows the use of standard gear cutting tools and mating gears.  A pair of gears will then require their shafts to be spaced a certain distance apart.  Could it be that the shaft centers were designed in and the odd gears made to fit? 

 

Also, can you determine whether the pressure angle is 14.5 degrees, 20 degrees, or some other number?

 

See the pages for Pressure Angle and Involute Gear on Wikipedia. 

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Posted (edited)

Pressure angle is 14.5. I'm not even sure 20 degrees was current in 1917. Certainly I've never seen a car or a machine took from that era that used 20-degree gears. One of the advantages to helical gears, aside from running quieter, is that there is some flexibility with overall diameter. I did measure the teeth with my gear gauges, which is how I arrived at DP8. I haven't measured them with my B&S Gear Vernier but in this case the challenge is to replicate the gear as it is...

 

I put the shaft in the lathe to see if I could polish it up a bit. Another curiosity is that it's nickel plated. Beside the corrosion there are a few burrs from the plating peeling off. It may not be as badly worn as it looks although I think it's too corroded to use long term.

 

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Ed sent me the piece that screws into the end which confirms that the diameter and depth of the counterbore are inconsequential. I was worried that something fit into the piece but that isn't the case. This is going to allow me to utilize most of the length of the large diameter section to anchor the shaft. Because it turns counter clockwise I will have to come up with a means of making it effectively one piece...this may be why they made it in one piece. At the moment I'm leaning towards reaming the hole and using a slip fit secured with a set screw but the jury is still out on that one. I have to plan all of the steps before I start machining. I have ordered the materials and some bits of tooling I'll need so I will be sending this back to Ed before I actually start making the new ones.

 

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While thinking about how I'm going to make this, I worked on the spring shackles. The first step was to cut 2 pieces...

 

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These were then set up on the drill press using angle blocks to make sure they were in perfect alignment with each other to drill and tap them for cap screws that will hold them thoether.

 

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Then they were drilled and one tapped while the hole was enlarged on the other and counterbored. These holes are located so that they will hold the blocks together while machining them but be eliminated in the process.

 

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The counterbores are deep enough so that the cap screws don't protrude on either side.

 

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And, the engine after three or for days (I think I did this on Monday). The second drip is directly under the plug in one of the banjo bolts...this isn't what I would consider much of a leak. I'll see if I can eliminate it but if this is all I get, I'll be a happy camper.

 

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Gary, some place at home (I haven't found it yet) I have the Brown & Sharp manual titled "Formulas in Gearing". I'll want to check that before I start cutting teeth. It's clear that the White company had there own way of doing things...the thread on the piece Ed just sent is 7/8-13, a size not listed in any of my period catalogs and I have them going back to at least 1891.

 

[EDIT] I see that the 20-degree was in use at the time so I'll have to figure out how to measure it. I think it's unlikely they used it, but it's best to be sure before we start cutting.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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It’s just a water pump shaft.......how complicated can it be? 😝

 

Its amazing the engineering and skill required to make a part that’s 103 to 104 years old. Correctly fixing a car that is pre war is ten times more difficult than most people understand. Working on something from the 50’s or 60’s is absolutely zero effort compared to the high end low production stuff I play with every day. I enjoy the challenge and working on automotive architecture and treasure. Anyone can restore a car that you pick up a phone and order everything you need...........restoring a one off type car is the true challenge.......10,000 problems to be solved. Some figured out in minute.....others days, weeks, or months. 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

This is the big issue with "reverse engineering"...it looks like you just copy the part but there is A LOT more to it than that. I'm in complete agreement though. If all I had to do was order the parts I'd loose interest pretty fast.

 

I posted a picture of it on the Practical Machinist Antique Machinery forum. There are guys there whose knowledge make my efforts almost embarrassing...but it looks as if I've figured it correctly. A 20-tooth DP8 spur gear would be 2.75" in diameter but a helical gear with the same DP can be larger. 20-degree and 14.5 degree gears look subtly different but I have never worked with 20-degree gears and don't have any to compare this one to.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Joe, I can draw up a gear with DP8 pitch and 3D print one out in reverse so you can see if it meshes with the real gear.  Want to try it?

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Posted (edited)

Sure!

 

Thanks.

 

jp

 

[EDIT] What a great idea. My machinist colleagues suggested exactly that except they presume I have another gear to try it with - which, obviously, I don't. We're about 99% sure it's 14.5 degrees but there are some further measurements I can take to confirm that.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Here is the 3D printed gear to mate with the one on the shaft, i.e. the helix is in the other direction than the one on the shaft.  It is otherwise the same as Joe described:  20 teeth, 14.5 degree pressure angle, 20 degree helix, 1.25" thick.  As predicted for a DP8 gear, it is 2.75" o.d.  You could test it against the original gear to see if it meshes correctly.  Where should I send it?

EDIT:  If you need it right now, I can drop it off in Smithfield or Woonsocket, or you can come get it in Dartmouth, about 40 miles.

 

489620381_WhitegearDP8helicalprinted.thumb.jpg.49c637518a194956c4ec78a4aa0f49f5.jpg

Edited by Gary_Ash (see edit history)
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I have to go up to the shop this morning...why don't you stop by and I'll show you the real shaft. I need to take pictures of it before I send it back to Ed. I'm at 401-323-4433...I'll be there in abut 30 minutes (9:50 right now)

 

Cheers, JP

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