JV Puleo

My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project

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10 hours ago, chistech said:

The drums hold up pretty good as long as you use the Dremel brand sleeves.

 

So that's why my ones fly off the rubber holder as soon as you start to use them! Thanks for the info.

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I picked up some sanding drums and also a carbide "brush" type cutter that carries a warning not to use it on metal - which you don't see until after you open the sealed blister pack. Actually, because it is a smaller diameter it worked quite well but you must clamp the work piece down and hold the Dremel with both hands. If it slips off you'll get a serious gouge. I made a little progress today but I feel like Sisyphus rolling that rock up hill.

 

On a more optimistic note, I came up with a way to modify the set of right angle priming cups with the wrong thread that I bought on ebay years ago. I was in the UK at the time, the seller didn't know a thread size from a door knob so I took a chance. They have been sitting in a box for at least two years waiting for me to have a bright idea.

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If I had to do this over again, this is not the way I'd go about it. But, this is the result after something like 4 days of grinding, filing and sanding. There are still some pits I'd like to eliminate but right now I'm so sick of the job I'm going to let it ride until I feel a bit more energetic. At least the flaws are only cosmetic and id does look a lot better than it did with the welds showing.

 

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I then put it back in the lathe to face off the inside, guessing that the welding might have warped it slightly. I don't know if that was the cause but it was slightly out. I took off .007 to get it perfectly flat again.

 

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And for good measure, turned it around and trimmed the seal retaining nut off until it was flush.

 

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You can see a couple of the flaws. I have some Devcon aluminum putty I may use to fill these. The color won't be right but I've worn my finger raw sanding so maybe I don[t really care too much if there is a darker spot on the finished piece.

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Posted (edited)

This morning I did the last machining operation on the input side of the pump. I need to remove the end of the tube now that it has been welded in place.

 

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This went well although I noticed that the aluminum machines poorly where the welding heated it - probably destroying the heat treating.

 

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That makes little difference as it's inside the pump.

 

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Then I checked the depth to the seal retaining nut to make sure there was enough room for both the seal and the bushing. In this case, I used oilite bushings because I just culdn't come up with a way to lubricate the bushings from the outside. The original bushing were like this.

 

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I had about .040 extra space in both cases so I pressed the bushings in.

 

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Now for the real test. To my relief the water pump shaft went in with only hand pressure. There are so many parts in this pump that I was concerned that it wouldn't line up perfectly. In fact, it may be .001 to .002 off but that is easily honed out.

 

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I tried it on the engine with a magneto in place/ It is tighter than I'd like...I forgot to take into consideration the extension on the end of the mag but I can make it fit though that might take making a new coupling to go between the shaft and the pump.

 

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My only disappointment is that I'm thinking the pump is clunky looking because its too big. It will work but I may add this to my list of things I'd like to do over again when I'm otherwise done with the chassis...or maybe not. Perhaps it will grow on me.

 

That mag is a Bosch ZU4 introduced in 1911. Since it has a bronze frame rather than aluminum I think it's an early one but I haven't looked up the serial number yet.

 

(EDIT) It looks like I was right abut the mag... it is an early to mid 1912 serial number.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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eh, idk, looks in proper scale to me... nice job!

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When attached to the engine it is very close to the magneto. There may be enough room for it to fit - there certainly will be if I move the mag back a little. I am going to finish it because I have to test whether my improvised "involute of discharge" works but I am certain I can do better. I think it's OK, just not exactly what I was hoping for. I don't begrudge time spent learning how to make things. It's the only way I'll ever succeed at this and pretty much has to be expected when you're "learning on the job."

 

If I use the mag, rather than the distributor I made out of a mag, I haven't room for an impulse starter. But, the mag was made in 1912 and I don't think the impulse coupling was invented until about 1917 so it must have either worked as is or was wired to include a separate coil for starting. I haven't been able to find a wiring diagram for the ZU4 that pre-dates WWI so I don't really know how it was done. (I haven't really looked at my books yet on that.)  I would like to have two complete ignition systems to experiment with, the mag and the distributor so I need to make all the contingent accessories so that those are interchangeable. When the time comes to start the engine I will have to figure out both the valve and ignition timing since I don't have any original data and, even if I did, it would not be appropriate for today's fuel or for the new camshaft which is not identical to the original. It's all one of those mind-bending ventures but I've tried to include as much room for adjustment as I can. One thing I've yet to make is a coupling for the water pump/magneto drive shaft that will allow fine adjustment of the ignition timing. I have a drawing for that from PM Heldt's book.

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Joe,

 

It would be a pain to cut the teeth but how about a Milbrath magneto coupling? This was designed by Arthur Milbrath one of the founding partners

of Wisconsin Engine. A s you can see the fine teeth give a good range of adjustment 

 

I can loan you the patterns if you think it could help.

 

T.

Assembly.thumb.jpg.8a05764dcbbc5da557b2218f2a6e0dc9.jpg

 

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Thanks Terry but there isn't room for it. I'll scan the device I'm going to make. Even that is very tight. I only have 1-1/2 inches to work with.

 

jp

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This is what I'm making.

 

757592221_Flangedcoupling.thumb.jpg.344b648b8dd7fccf3fb3530da79ffe78.jpg

 

At the bottom. One disc has 18 holes and the other has 20. Moving the driven side one hole relative to the driving side advances the spark 2 degrees. I think I can just fir this in the space that was originally occupied by the gland nut for the water pump.

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It's a really elegant solution to the problem but I doubt there is any way I can fit it in. As it is, I'm squeezing things very tight. A drawback to working on one component at a time is that you tend to forget it has to fit with all the other parts... at least it is for me.

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Posted (edited)

Joe, I am not sure if it would work for you but could you possibly shorten hub on the back of the pump?

I think you would still have plenty of bearing length.

 

I understand what you mean about the one-at-a-time problem. Its easy to loose track of how everything fits.

Been there, done that!

 

Also, Restoration Supply offers a adjustable magneto coupling that looks somewhat compact (11/16" face-to-face

The hub is 5/16" long according to their website)

resto.jpg.bb0beece939228ab4fcaaecccc79066a.jpg

 

Again, excellent work!

 

T.

 

 

Edited by Terry Harper (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

I've been working on that problem and I'm certain I can do it though I doubt it will give me a lot of room. So far, I've been able to remove 3/4" from the width of the pump (in my drawings). Whether I can convert that into an actual part remains to be seen but I'll never know unless I try. I've seen the Restoration Supply adjustable coupling...I seem to remember that it's pretty expensive and I'm still trying to do everything with the engineering methods of the period. I'd really like to see what is inside that hub.

 

EDIT: at $300 I'll see what I can make. I'm nothing if not a cheapskate.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Quote

EDIT: at $300 I'll see what I can make. I'm nothing if not a cheapskate.

 

Joe,

I just knew you would say that and I am pretty sure you can come-up with your own version

That will work just fine. I would call you clever bordering on brilliant rather than a cheapskate (LOL)

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I like the term "yankee mechanic".

During, or just after the Civil War a Confederate General made a reference to Union General whose name escapes me just now but he was a West Point graduate and a Railroad Engineer by profession. His feats of railroad building during the war were absolutely staggering...the Confederate referred to him, disparagingly, as "just a Yankee mechanic."

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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I was thinking of buying an impulse starter just to see if I could somehow fit it in but I've bought so many things I decided not to use that I hesitated, only to discover this morning that I already had one. I can't remember where I got it or when but likely it came with one of the magnetos I have.

 

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It was rusty and frozen solid with coagulated oil up so I took it apart to clean it. Believe it or not, this took most of the day since I was unable to find an exploded view and was being especially careful not to damage anything.

 

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I cleaned it up and mostly reassembled it. There ate two nuts missing for the T bolts. They have a very unusual thread (although they may be metric)...so if I do use it I'll have to find something that will work. In the midst of this, my neighbor came over with the impeller castings.

 

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So when I'd put the starter back together I chucked it up in the lathe.

 

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Drilled and reamed to 3/4"

 

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And then faced off the end to get it flat. I won't take it down to the finished width until I've faced the other side.

 

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The T bolts that hold the impulse coupling together appear to be 26TPI with a major diameter of .230. This is certainly not a US size and I don't have a metric thread gage but it appears to be very close to 6mm x .075, the fine metric thread. I don't know who made the impulse starter but it's almost certainly Bosch since it must have come from a Bosch magneto. I don't know when this was introduced... if before WWI metric threads make sense. If it was a product of the American Bosch company it might still be metric because the American owners just took over the former German manufacturing facility and I can't see them suddenly changing thread sizes, especially as the T bolts must have been custom made for this job. I'll see if I can get some nuts and try them in any case...

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Posted (edited)

Joe,

 

That Impeller looks great! I thought you said you weren't a pattern maker! Sure looks 

like your pattern did the job!

 

Here is a link to some info on American-Bosch impulse couplings.

https://oldcroak.com/impulse-coupler-rx/

 

And lastly, this one is more comprehensive and has guide to identifying the various models. I am not sure if it goes

back far enough or not.

http://www.brightsparkmagnetos.com/library/American Bosch/American Bosch Impulse Couplings Type IC-200.pdf

Edited by Terry Harper (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

Yes...but you make those "hollow" patterns. I've yet to do that and the truth is I find it very difficult to wrap my brain around about making a void in the sand rather than a part. The American Bosch stuff was the best I've seen. But, none of their couplings look like the one I have although I have a piece of the 200 series on another mag. I'm still in the dark as to what was going on in 1912 but I have more period engineering books to look at.

 

j

 

I will say that the impeller came out so good I'm encouraged about making more patterns. They guys next door even made me an extra in case I messed the first one up.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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It looks as if the impulse coupling was introduced around 1909. At least it was offered on the U&H Magneto that year and the wording of the ad suggests it was a fairly new idea.

 

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Until just now I'd never heard of Unterberg & Helmle. Unterberg was the inventor. He was German, resident in Germany but took out some US patents. The ad says it is a patented invention but I've not been able to find the drawing.

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Posted (edited)

Here's an article from the December 21, 1907 issue of The Motorcar Journal (which I believe is English) describing the U & H "snap starter" as "an original feature" so it looks as if they introduced it. I find it interesting is that the Bosch DU4 was introduced in 1908. I wonder if it was an attempt to achieve low speed starting without infringing U&H's patent.

 

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EDIT: I found the original US patent issued in January 1909. It was applied for in January of 1906 so he would have been covered against infringement from that date. In as far as I can see, it is much simpler than the later Bosch devices but the patent didn't expire until 1926 so all of the other manufacturers must have had to scramble to come up with something that worked but didn't infringe.

 

If you'd like to look it up it's 909483.

 

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

BSB threads are 26 tpi. Interesting to read about the 'impulse' starting devices. I have never heard of or come across these before. The castings look good.

Edited by Mike Macartney
Added a bit more (see edit history)

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Great research Joe! 

 

I have a big American-Bosch AT-6 sitting on my dresser. The gentleman I purchased it from set it up with a impulse coupling

that matches the rotation (counter clockwise when viewed from the front) If its hot or not I don't know I need to get it tested

and sorted out. I also scored a NOS fiber drive disk with the cross-slots. On the motor itself at some point the serrated drive disk

on the magneto drive shaft got bent - I need to remove it and true it up.

 

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Cleaning up the other end of the impeller...

 

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I took it down the the finished thickness, they put it on a mandrel and turned the diameter. The last step was fitting by turning off about .100 on the other end. Here it is in the pump body. It's the wrong way around to show the blades... when assembled the open end of the impeller faces the input tube.

 

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