JV Puleo

My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project

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Man, a guy can’t go away from this forum a day without falling way behind between you and mike! It gets my head spinning there’s so much I’ve missed. The restoration forum is so interesting and informative right now with what you guys are posting. Keep up the great work guys.  No need to repost this on Mike’s thread, he’ll see it, he spends as much time here as I do!

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I need to turn the OD down to 6" but to do that I have to put the end plugs in and to do that I'll need a face spanner. I may have outsmarted myself here... the tolerances are very tight but I'll give it a try. I'm putting center holes in for the pins and the slot in the center here.

 

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I'm not thrilled with this but it looks as if it will work.

 

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Then to drill the corresponding holes in the end plugs.

 

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It didn't work perfectly. The pins in the spanner are a tiny bit too wide - or the holes in the caps a little too close. I fudged it by milling the holes in the end caps a little wider. I did think of a permanent fix - I'll take the 1/8" holes out to 5/32. There is just enough roof for that. I may make a 2nd spanner but the one I have did work to put the caps in. I then bolted everything together and set it up in the lathe but I'm feeling very run down today and decided it might be best to turn it tomorrow.

 

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On the plus side - when I've repaired this little glitch it will be totally invisible.

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16 hours ago, chistech said:

Man, a guy can’t go away from this forum a day without falling way behind between you and mike! It gets my head spinning there’s so much I’ve missed. The restoration forum is so interesting and informative right now with what you guys are posting.

 

I look forward every morning to my 'fix' of reading the posts from you, Joe, Roger, and others. I wish more members would post details of their restoration projects. I have learnt so much over the past year of finding this forum. Joe's posts of his precision machining with his 'old machinery' I find just 'mind blowing'.

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The two ends of the water ump turned down to 6". After I did this I checked it on the car and it looks as if it just fits in the available space.

 

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Then it went in the rotary table. This part took a lot of time because the stack of stuff... the rotary table with its chuck and the pieces just about used up the available space under the quill of the milling machine. In the end I used this long center drill held in a collet and just made it. The first step was to make a register mark. This is a locator for the water inlet tube which will go in later but which must be precisely located so that it isn't in the way of the cap screws that hold the pump together.

 

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Then I drilled five center holes. I did the math twice on this one to check myself so I hope I got it right.

 

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Then I stood the rotary table up and continued the register mark across the edges. The idea is to always assemble the pump with the ends in the same location.

 

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Then into the drill press to drill the holes. I didn't have enough vertical travel to do this in the mill. The holes were drilled with a #7 drill - the tap hole size for 1/4020.

 

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With that done, I took the pieces apart and tapped the holes in one place.

 

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The other plate gets its holes drilled out to 1/4" and counterbored but that will have to wait until tomorrow.

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3 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

The idea is to always assemble the pump with the ends in the same location.

One way to do that is to drill one hole slightly out of position so it only goes together one way.

 

Just a warning about doing mathematics twice. To convert between map projections way back when, there were a series of 12 formulae with another set of 12 to do the reverse calculation, which was the essential check. I made an error in the 2nd equation of the forward calculation. After two weeks of sweating over it, I still couldn't see my error. I went to the lecturer. As soon as I saw the result of the second equation on his calculator, I saw my error: transposition of numbers. Instead of, say, 4.484, I had written down and seen from then on 4.848. Boy did I feel stupid. The moral of the story is to do your calc's twice but a different way so you are using different numbers. e.g. change units, rotate the geometry, .... They say we learn by our mistakes, but I don't believe that because if we do it wrong once, or several times, then get it right only once, we haven't learnt, we just remember confusion.

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I make the same kind of mistakes. In fact, I made one in this job writing down 218 degrees instead of 216 degrees. But, I figured the next number correctly and it was only because I double checked the figures I noticed the error. I did use asymmetric holes in the oil pump and put the dowel pins in asymmetric holes so it can only go together one way. The math here is simple but I've always had problems with writing numbers down in the wrong order so I often lack confidence in my calculations.

 

 

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In land surveying, the independent check is very important. Calculate the remainder of the circle and see if it works. Do the geometry another way with a different origin or something. Transposition of figures is a pain and can become habitual.

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Thanks guys, you may have inadvertently helped me with my problem on the Humberette engine with my different compression heights in the two cylinders! I have been known in the past to be dyslectic with numbers. Although, it was fortuitous finding the different heights as, if they had been the same or very similar I would possibly not bothered to take the bottom half of the engine apart and not found the loose rivets on the flywheel. I will have to wait now until I get the engine back together before I check the measurements again. I'll get someone else to also check them to see if I am correct.

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3 hours ago, Mike Macartney said:

I'll get someone else to also check them to see if I am correct

Measure in mm and in inches and do the conversion. That is a very good way to do it.

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Joe,

I might have missed something, but I am curious, what type aluminum are you using for the water pump?  What configuration will you impeller be?  You certainly have a good start on the water pump.

Al

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The aluminum is 6061. I haven't decided about the impeller. I made a bronze one long ago but I'm reluctant to use it now. I think I will make a pattern and have one cast next door in 356T6. My neighbors actually make the water pumps for one of the better known engine accessory companies and that is the alloy they use. The impeller will have straight blades. I read quite a bit on early water pump design. The gist of it is that before the invention of the thermostat is was a complicated and rather inexact science. Automobile water pumps were often designed to decrease the potential flow so as not to overwhelm the radiator. With a thermostat in the line it is safe to ignore that consideration because if the flow stops a centrifugal pump will just spin. This is why it's not practical to use a vane pump... it will continue to pump until something gives way.

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Hello Joe,

I am also sure that flow is good but too much flow will not overwhelm the radiator but move the water so fast that the water/coolant does not have time, in the radiator, to shed the heat through the fins of the radiator.  I have seen several original "fixes" on old cars that had continual heating issues where an orifice plate was installed to "slow the flow" through the radiator thus eliminating the heating issue.  (No flow is not good either!)  I agree with your choice of material and impeller design.

Al

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Yes. It was because too much flow didn't give the water a chance to cool that it had to be avoided. If you look at old impellers, most have the vanes curved in the direction of flow. That slows it down. Curved opposite to the direction of flow is much faster and straight vanes are a middle of the road compromise. When Cadillac introduced thermostatic control on their early V8s they used two water pumps, each one of which, by formula, was more than the entire engine needed but the thermostat controlled that. The major issue with brass cars is that they didn't want them to overheat but no matter how closely they figured the flow rates, they had no control over the ambient temperature. During the brass they figured the flow rates for the pump and the radiator to not overheat on a very hot day. As a result, they usually ran cold. I suspect that 90% of the overheating problems early cars have now is caused by clogged radiators and/or worn, inefficient pumps. Since I will use a thermostat, I'm not too worried about excess flow in either the pump or the radiator.

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Joe,

The heating/cooling of an old car can almost be like watching a dog chase it's own tail.  I also suspect that we are much more interested in controlling the heating/cooling of our antique automobiles than our great-grand-dads did back in the day.

Al

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Posted (edited)

Reading the last few posts, it enlightened me more on water pump/cooling principles. The pictures are of my 32’ Olds water pump which also contains an oil cooler/warmer core made by Harrison.  The core has a baffle plate on one side (probably to restrict flow) with the pump housing above, and the vanes of the rotor, not shown, are straight and flat. The pump assembly with a nicely cleaned out block water jacket will easily shoot water out the top of the radiator 3’ in the air, if the motor is accelerated up at all if there is no cap on it and will push it out of the overflow pipe with the cap on. The push out of water ceases after a while as it seems there needs to be enough of a reservoir for the water to dump into as it comes from the pump when accelerating. Even with the baffle plate and oil cooling core present, the pump moves a lot of water through the motor. The Olds engineers probably figured the oil cooler to do both the cooling of the engine oil and the slowing of the flow some to aid in the heat dispersal/water flow through the radiator. 

 

Actually, in the bottom picture the pump rotor can be seen.

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Edited by chistech (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

I had a near disaster today that, in the end, has turned out pretty good. I started by drilling and counterboring the holes for the screws that hold the pump together.

 

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Everything lined up perfectly. I have slotted screws for the finished product but they are too long to use with the center of the pump missing so I checked it with some sort socket head cap screws.

 

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Then I set up one piece in the mill to put in a circular slot .375 deep.

 

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Which took a long time to do because I was concerned about taking too deep a cut with a 3/16 end mill.

 

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The first side was the end with threaded holes. I then set up the side with the counterbores...and realized that the radius of the slot would hit the counterbore. That was something I hadn't anticipated but it means I culdn't mill the slot deep enough for the o-ring I intended to use as a seal. But, thank goodness I noticed this before I ruined the part. I milled the slot only .125 deep and will have to think of a way to seal it. Actually, I don't think it is a major setback. If I have to, I'll just use a bead of silicone sealer or maybe that red Gasolia.

 

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I was going to quit early but as luck would have it, the long center cutting end mills I need to cut the water passage came in - while the mill was all set up for the job so I set that up and started on it. This is a 5/16 slot. The water inlet tube will get welded into the center hub and then I will clean up the inside of the slot with a 3/8 end mill.

 

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I hope all this works. This is actually my simplified design...as is my habit, the original design was far too complicated.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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9 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

The water inlet tube will get welded into the center hub

 

Did I read that correctly? :)

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Yes... but not by me. I'll take it to the local welder who did the exhaust manifold. It's a compromise on my part. I should have made patterns and had all the parts cast and then machined them but I haven't the patience for that. Slow as I am, I do want to finish some day.

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This wasn't as easy to do as I'd expected. the long end mill, even though it is supposed to be "center cutting" deflected slightly as I moved it down. I tried taking small cuts - which made the job last too long and when it was done both the inside piece (where the bearing goes) and the outside were nicked and a bit rough looking. It wouldn't have any effect on how it worked but it annoyed me. Fortunately, I did it with a 5/16 end mill although the drawing called for 3/8 and I'd bought one of each so when I'd gotten the depth down to 1.6" I did it again with the 3/8 end mill. Now, because it wasn't trying to drill a hole, it didn't deflect at all so, in the end it looks pretty good. This is the water passage on the inside of the pump. The water has to enter from the middle and be forced to the outside by the impeller.

 

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I have to add the water inlet tube to this but I'm still waiting on it. In the meantime I have to measure to find out just how long the tube should be so that it lines up with the radiator outflow...not easy in this case because the car is apart but I think I can get close.

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Posted (edited)

 

I made the outer shell of the pump today. It's only 3/6" thick but the measurements are odd and I need it to be absolutely concentric. The only way I know to do that is to turn everything without removing the work piece from the chuck. I needed my big chuck for this. I don't look forward to mounting this as it weighs close to 100 lbs. Unless it's an emergency I try to put it on or off first thing in the morning. I started by cutting a 3" piece of this aluminum tubing. In this case, 3" of tubing with a 3/8" wall cost only a few dollars more than this piece with a 1/2" wall from a different supplier. I opted for the 1/2" and it's good I did because even though the finished piece is less than 2" long I needed the extra to be able to hold it in the chuck.

 

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With unusual foresight, I cut the grooves in the end plates first since I couldn't be certain I'd get the diameter perfect and it is much easier to match an odd diameter in the lathe than it is with the rotary table. I measured the groves, which were supposed to have a diameter of 4.875 inches and found they were 4.930. But, because they were both made without moving anything on the mill, they matched perfectly. So, I turned the od to 4.930 less about .002.

 

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Then I started boring the inside. I had a lot of trouble with this. The boring bar probably isn't stiff enough. I should have used a different one but having started, and not wanting to move anything, I kept at it.

 

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I finally got it to the desired size and cut it off with the cut off tool.

 

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Ant much to my relief it fit perfectly though very close to the length I was aiming for. In fact, since it's only .025 over, I'm going to leave it alone.

 

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Curious to see how it fit, I screwed it together.

 

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If you are wondering where this design came from, several years ago I bought a pump on ebay in the hope of making it work on the car. This was the basic design although the ends were cast and it was made of bronze. The inlet and output ports on that pump were too small and I'd no good way of altering them but the design appealed to me because I could see it was something I could make.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

 

 

As often happens with me, I find myself changing the design while I'm making something. The water pump presents some unusual problems in that until the eigine is assembles and in the car I have no good way to measure for the inlet and outlet tubes. I've decided to make it in such a way that I can easily adjust by making some additional parts when the time comes. With that in mind I made this water outlet tube. It is 1" OD x 3/4 ID with a 1"-20 thread.

 

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This piece is going to be the inside of the pump. Originally it was going to be the entire center portion but I decided to make the big ring and then make the inside separately and press it into the ring. I set this up in the lathe but never got to it because I decided to increase the size of the outlet tube to 1-1/8" with a 7/8" ID. That raised new problems with the parts I haven't made yet but which must attach to the pump. In order to be able to make those, I decided I needed 1-1/8-20 and 1-1/4-20 threading gauges so I took the bit disc of aluminum out of the lathe and started on the threading gauges.

 

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This went well until I did the 1-1/8-20 thread. I actually have a tap in that size that I bought about 35 years ago for 1 job. Unfortunately, it is a bottoming tap - with no taper on the end. I though that by starting it in the lathe I could get around that. I was wrong. I did thread the external ring...

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but the thread came out crooked. I was able to correct that but this job that should have taken an hour or two has taken all day. In the end, they came out all right though.

 

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I also had a good hit on ebay. When I was setting up the water system I wanted to use brass fittings. They were in every hardware store when I was young but I discovered they aren't made any more. I started to make them out of threaded pipe fittings but when I realized how much work it was I just said "to H-ll with that" and used copper. Then, a couple of days ago these popped up...

 

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Fortunately, I've never finished the water system. It still needs to be soldered together so aside from polishing these, which I dread, I'll be getting exactly what I originally wanted. I still need a 3/4 Tee and a 1" to 3/4 elbow but if I have to make those it won't be the project making all of them would have been.

 

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

Because its a holiday, I had a completely uninterrupted day in the shop and managed to make the inside piece of the pump. I put the big disc of aluminum back in the lathe but, when I went to turn it, it appeared to be slipping on the arbor.

 

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So, I sprinkled a little powdered rosin on the arbor. This is the stuff gunsmiths use in barrel vises.

 

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Except that wasn't the problem. It turns out the belt on the lathe was slipping. It stretches over time - I probably have to tighten it once every two years or so. I did that and form that point all went well. I turned the diameter down to make a press fit. I was looking for between .001 and .002 larger than the inside of the ring and hit it at .0015 (much to my surprise).

 

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Then I started reducing the thickness. I also calculated just how thick this had to be...

 

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While I was doing this I was having second thoughts about my figures... and I had the bright idea of lapping the ring into it's slot to make sure it was perfectly seated.

 

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That worked remarkably well so I did all the figures over again and arrived at a thickness of 1.425". This should allow a little extra space inside the pump - the actual figure was 1.452 but I don't think this is a critical measurement unless I get it too thick - in which case I'll have to take it out to take a little more off. That would be a major job so I'm going to err on the side of caution.

 

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I finished up about 5:30 and decided to leave pressing it in for tomorrow.

 

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Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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I came in this morning all set to press the center into the pump, only to find that when the parts had cooled down to room temperature, it was now a slip fit.

 

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This isn't a major problem. Actually, I should have been aiming for this but matching those two large diameters is very difficult. Since I could get the center out easily, I put it together and bolted it up tight with a couple of pieces of Blutack on one side so I could measure the gap inside.

 

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It was quite a bit more than I'd anticipated but that turns out to actually be good because now I can use a rubber o-ring to seal the side where I couldn't mill the slot as deep as I'd intended.

 

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To hold the center in exactly the right relationship to the ring, I used this locktite 635 "slip fit" material. It's supposed to work up to a .007 clearance and I don't have anywhere near that.

 

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It has a long cure time, 72 hours to full strength so I won't be able to work on the part until Monday which isn't a big issue because I'm still waiting on a tap and an end mill I'll need. I did bolt it up tight again but I will probably take it apart before I go home since I'm concerned that if any of the Locktite migrated into one of the slots I won't be able to take it apart. I still don't know if it's watertight but I have a good feeling about this. While I'm waiting on the bits that are coming I'll make the inlet and outlet tubes and finish fixing the rotted sill under my back door.

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Rather than the inlet and output tubes I decided to make the holding fixture I will need to bore the offset hole in the center of the pump. This is a fixture I made to bore and thread the flanges for the exhaust manifold. As I remember, it didn't work as well as I'd hoped and, in any case, I'm very unlikely to make another exhaust manifold so why not reuse it.

 

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The OD was turned down to provide a lip for the milling machine hold downs and decrease the diameter where I'll have to drill and tap holes for the soft point set screws.

 

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Then the center bored to accept the pump center. I set a stop on the bed of the lathe and turned up to it which gives me a fairly uniform depth across the entire bored area.

 

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I finished that this morning, allowing about .002 clearance so the pump center slips into the fixture easily.

 

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I then turned it around to bore the clearance hole for the boring bar...but forgot to take a picture of that. I didn't quite finish in any case so I'll have more tomorrow.

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Posted (edited)

I finished the clearance hole in the boring fixture this morning.

 

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So far, so good.

 

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The pump center just slips in.

 

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Then I set up the rotary table to put in the holes for the soft tip set screws.

 

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And drilled center holes at 120-degrees around the circumference.

 

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Unfortunately, I don't have enough vertical clearance to drill and tap the holes so I set it up in the drill press. This isn't going to be quite as accurate but that is hardly an issue when all they do is hold the set screws.

 

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There is still a little more to do on this but I have two other jobs that I should do in the mill while I have the rotary table set up.

 

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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