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My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project


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First Class is WAY beyond my means...I'll be in Kew at the national archives for a week. After that I'm not sure what is in store.

Mike...when I'm done in London I will try to make it up to Norfolk - sort of the long way home back to Cheltenham. I'll be in touch as things develop. This is my last chance to sort out details for my book so I've promised myself that I'll do that first.

 

jp

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14 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

First Class is WAY beyond my means...

 

First Class Travel - Hmmm - I have never thought of myself as tight, but . . . , if I could afford 'first class travel' would I? . . . . I doubt it. I have never flown very 'long haul' like to Australia or New Zealand, from the UK, so I don't know what that would be like in 'cattle class'. The longest flights I have been on were to LA, at the prices I paid, I was happy being uncomfortable, for the time it took for the flight, although I was a bit younger then. The first trip was in the early 80's to race our human powered machine, the Poppy Flyer, at Pomona Raceway. The second trip was around the late 09's, after writing my first book on BMW 2002's. I was invited to give a talk to a bunch of Californian 02 enthusiasts. Thinking about it again. . . . Yes, I must be tight! Now,  considering my age and health, can I even be bothered to travel? No, I have become a BOF!

 

14 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

Mike...when I'm done in London I will try to make it up to Norfolk - sort of the long way home back to Cheltenham.

 

Well, I suppose it is a bit prettier than going straight down the M4! :) Joe, do you stay in, or near Kew, when you do your research there? 

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I've booked a B&B about 1 mile from the archives. I've never done that before so we'll have to see how it works. I've been to Kew quite a few times but have always driven from Cheltenham and back. On one occasion the return trip took 11 hours because I got stuck in a horrific traffic jam around Oxford. I have about 30 volumes of the Privy Council Registers to go through checking numbers on export licenses between 1792 and 1810 (it's very exciting stuff!). These volumes are the hand written minutes of the Privy Council. There is no other place to get this information as it has never been published and isn't available on line. The only way to do it is to go to Kew and look for yourself. If I get that done, I have a few volumes of Ordnance Bill Books to look at. 

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks Gary,

I've just had two extremely successful days at the British National Archives. In fact, I'm done in two days rather than the three or four I'd anticipated. This will pretty much allow me to finish the most important chapter of my book, although I still have to go to the regional US archive in Philadelphia. Oddly enough, that may be more complicated than the British archives but I'm getting close.

 

I too am looking forward to getting back to the Mitchell project but that job is only about 8 years old. This book has been in the works for more than 30 years.

Edited by JV Puleo
typo (see edit history)
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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello Joe,

I have a friend in need of a couple of new gears cut for a 1903 Rambler.  (These are the drive gears for the valve timing).  Do you know of a shop that can cut gears and be willing to do a "one off job" such as this one?  I hope you have both feet on the ground from your trip to the UK.

Al

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I depends on the size of the gear and the diametrical pitch. I might be able to do it or your friend could use the same source as Harm for the 1903 Cleveland. I believe that was in the UK. It's 7:00 AM as I type this and I'm off in about an hour...I'll be back in the shop tomorrow.

 

There aren't many sources for a one-of gear (short of frightfully expensive) but it's quite likely that there is an off-the-shelf gear that can be modified if it isn't identical.

 

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7 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Joe,

I have a friend in need of a couple of new gears cut for a 1903 Rambler.  (These are the drive gears for the valve timing).  Do you know of a shop that can cut gears and be willing to do a "one off job" such as this one?  I hope you have both feet on the ground from your trip to the UK.

Al

 

Alan, 

Before going the route of custom cut gears I would try

 

Boston Gear: https://www.bostongear.com/

 

Gears are designed to standard formulas so (unless its a real odd ball) they will have something that will work

with modifications such as facing to the correct thickness of machining the hub. In fact they offer gears with machinable hubs for that purpose.

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Joe,

I have a friend in need of a couple of new gears cut for a 1903 Rambler.  (These are the drive gears for the valve timing).  Do you know of a shop that can cut gears and be willing to do a "one off job" such as this one?  I hope you have both feet on the ground from your trip to the UK.

Al

Hello Alan,

 

HPC in England made the 6 balance gears for the Cleveland differential for me. I was happy with them, good communication, and had not rob a bank to pay the bill 😏. I must admit I ordered the 6 gears more than 10 years ago. They have a huge online catalog.

 

Link: hpcgears.com

 

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
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Hello Terry, Harm and Joe (others who may be paying attention),

Thanks for your comments!  If you don't mind Joe, could I post a picture or two of the gear set that needs to be made new for the early Rambler on this forum?  The gear set is quite unusual, it may be something that a firm like Boston Gear could supply but I have not seen anything, in their catalog, that is a very close match.  I will wait for approval from Joe before I clutter his chat forum with non-Mitchell information.

Regards,

Alan

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Yes, by all means post a photo. The number of teeth and the diameter is critical as that is what determines the diametrical pitch.

 

If we know the size of the gear it is much easier to find a new one. The gears Terry mentions often have to be modified so it is still a "one-off" machine job but often doesn't require cutting gear teeth. Timing gears don't have to be hardened so that makes the job quite a bit simpler than making transmission gears.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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I got home last night after about 22 hours of travel - much of it spent waiting at Heathrow. Everything went very smoothly except that my truck won't start having sat in the drive way for a month. It's on the charger now and I'm catching up on emails.

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Glad to hear that you have arrived home safely. Hanging about at airports has put me off long distance travel, possibly, for the rest of my life! As I am, again housebound, with yet another dose of breathing problems, I am looking forward to your daily injection of machining details and photos. I have missed my early morning machining fix!. I hope the flat battery is no more than a recharge and that you can get back in the workshop soon. Mike

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The battery was up in half an hour and I'm now back in the shop having one of those "what do I do next" moments. But, I will have more tonight even if it isn't much.

 

j

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This morning I went back to some finishing touches on the water pump. The first step was to lightly lap the shaft and the extension that will hold the drive gear in place with everything tightened up. I did this with Time Saver lapping compound because it degrades, making it nowhere near as important to get every bit of the residue out which, in this case would be impossible without removing the bearings. Time Saver is a powder that you mix with light oil. I used an old veterinary syringe to force it into the bearings through the grease holes and fitted the hand wheel I made for my unsuccessful radius turning tool to turn the shaft.

 

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While I was away, I bought this grease cup. This will be made into a tool to force grease into the front bearing.

 

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I have to remove the threaded portion. Unfortunately, the threaded area for the cap is raised so I can't easily grip it in the chuck. The body of the grease cup is 1-1/4" in diameter so I put a piece of 1-1/4" ground stock in the chuck and indicated it.

 

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Then loosened two of the jaws and replaced it with the grease cup pushed far enough back so that the jaws don't touch the threads.

 

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The pipe threads were turned off, after which it was drilled and reamed to 3/8"

 

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I need to make an extension so that when it is screwed in it will clear the OD of the pump. I also need to thread one end 3/8-16 and discovered that my only die is too big for my die holder. I ordered one and will get back to this when it arrives. The extension will be soldered into the grease cup. The whole thing is a bit awkward but not really a problem because I doubt the pump will need to be greased more than a two or three times a year.

 

IMG_2715.JPG.44a967013558df826edc476032192cdb.JPG

 

I intend to include running board tool boxes fitted for the special tools I've made for the car...there are several others as well.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Thank you...

I'm still feeling the after effects of jet lag. I didn't bother me in the past but the older I get, the more it leaves me completely knackered. While waiting for the die I need I decided to make the threaded inserts for the sump and the studs that will secure the connecting rod caps. I need 30 of these, 18 for the sump and 12 for the rod caps. It isn't a difficult job but since I have to make them one at the time, it is tedious. Neverrtheless, it's going faster than it did in the past since I've finally worked out a system. The first step is to drill the rod for the internal thread and thread it.

 

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Then it's cut off...

 

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It is easy to do but since I'm constantly changing tools, and got called away for a couple of other small jobs I only got 10 made today.

 

IMG_2718.JPG.fec996559823f641c90fc67b0f6f4f55.JPG

 

 

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Good to have you back working and posting joe. I think quite a few guys were getting anxiety waiting for you to get back to it. Reading and looking at posts has become a fix that many of us look forward to every time we log into the forums. Glad you made it back safe, sound, and were able to accomplish your trip goals.

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Thanks Ted.

I pressed on with the threaded inserts...this is one of those jobs that takes time and hardly shows at all when it's done. I would have bought them if they were available. Both of my two "old car" friends from my youth visited yesterday, one to make something and the other to drill and tap a hole in a Corvair transaxle for a drain plug so I didn't quite finish threading the inside of the inserts until this morning.

 

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The inserts for the sump...in keeping with my one superstition I made an extra insert because if I have it, I won't need it.

 

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Now I'll make 12 more for the rod caps. Those will be 9/16-18 OD and 7/16-14 ID.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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13 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

...in keeping with my one superstition I made an extra insert because if I have it, I won't need it.

 

Or, in my case, as I might loose one before I come to fit them! Do they have 'bakers dozens' in the USA? Mike

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I've finished the threaded inserts. These are 7/16-20 inside and 9/16-18 outside. I'm hoping this is the end of making them though I'm certain there will be a few more...at least I won't have to make so many. Next I'll make bolt that will hold the camshaft bearing in place, drilled so I can get oil pressure to the cam. After that, it is back to working on the crankcase, putting the inserts in and, eventually boring the main bearings.

 

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I should have moved on to putting the inserts in but I've promised to do a little job for the foundry next door and didn't want to tie the mill up... so I finished the water pump greasing tool. This is a piece of 3/8 brass rod with a hole drilled through the center and threaded 3/16 on one end.

 

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I also made an aluminum slug to put in the cup when I solder it as solder won't stick to it...

 

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And soldered the brass rod into the grease cup.

 

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Then filled it with water pump grease and tried it.

 

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This is how it works. You have to remove the cap that hold the pump in place but the shaft from the drive gear holds it firm while you grease the pump.

 

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That went smoothly so I decided to try one of my really critical jobs...something I've been putting off because it scares me. Drilling the hole that will allow me to get oil to the center main under pressure.

 

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To do this I bought an extra long 3/16 "chip clearing" drill.

 

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The scary part is that you are working blind. The hole has to come out so that the connections will fit between the blocks. I measured it quite a few times and finally went ahead with fingers crossed. And thankfully, it came out just about perfect. The little brass screw is in the hole any you can see the bodge in the casting where I suspect it had originally been intended to put the oil line.

 

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I also forgot about daylight savings time so I thought it was only 4:00 when it was really 5:00. So, I made this tool to drill and ream the center camshaft bearing and it's retaining cap. This is a piece of 1/2-20 threaded rod with a hole in the center that is 1/64th under 5/16. It's a "one time" fixture...I soldered the nut on so I could tighten it. The idea is to use it to locate the drill perfectly centered on the retaining bolt. The hole will be reamed to 5/16 so I should have perfectly aligned holes in both the bearing and it's cap. The actual bolt (that I've yet to make) will have a 5/16 projection on it that will lock the bearing and it's cap in place under pressure. It will also be drilled 3/16 and have a banjo fitting on top so I can feed oil from the center bearing to the camshaft.

 

IMG_2731.thumb.JPG.8361bf15e66929e36dac3a6e85a695f8.JPG

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8 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

I also made an aluminum slug to put in the cup when I solder it as solder won't stick to it...

 

Yet another thing I had not thought of . . . . still learning lots from you Joe . . . . thanking you again for all your posts.

 

On the photo of drilling the main bearing for the oil feed, I noticed that the centre line of the cylinder bore and the position of the crankshaft are not in line. I had not noticed that before. Were all multi cylinder engines built like that in the early days?

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No but it was a fairly common aspect of engine design at the time. In this case it is rather exaggerated. I forget now what the reason was. I think Model T Ford cranks are off cnter but not as much. (Never having worked on a Model T engine, I can't say that from personal experience.)

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Its a means to minimize side thrust. My Wisconsin is the same way. (3/4" offset)

Sometimes you will find offset piston pins which is another method. A good thing to know when your

rebuilding an engine!

 

According to an article I found offset piston pins are much more effective at reducing side thrust

than offsetting the bores from the crank center line.

 

T.

Edited by Terry Harper (see edit history)
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I think the Mitchell is offset 1" which is the most I've ever heard of.

I drilled the hole for the cam bearing retainer this morning.

 

IMG_2732.thumb.JPG.87692463d630243e3825b34611f23a6c.JPG

 

And then reamed it to 5/16".

 

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The holes will now be in perfect alignment with each other and the retaining bolt.

 

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I also counterbored the cap so the bolt will sit in it firmly.

 

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Next, I cut a piece of 1-1/4 hex stock to make a lock nut. Because it is larger than my hex collets I had to resort to the "3-jaw in the 4-jaw" chuck setup.

 

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I faced one side, drilled and threaded it. I'll finish this later, after I've taken the chucks off.

 

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Next I put the steel hex stock that will be the actual bolt in the machine to turn it round on one end. This didn't work. There isn't enough material in the chuck to hold it without slipping back.

 

IMG_2738.thumb.JPG.ae8c685933282a3d884b67d3c129aa2d.JPG

 

But, this piece is going to be drilled and threaded on the hex end to receive a banjo fitting so I decided to do that first.

 

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To get a flat bottom on the hole I used a 29/64 end mill - the hole size for the 1/2-20 banjo bolts.

 

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After threading the hole, I put a piece of threaded rod in a collet to hold the hex end of the bolt and keep it from turning. I'll use this to finish the lock nut as well.

 

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I got about half-way through turning it round before I decided to quit for the day. Hopefully, I'll finish this piece tomorrow.

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My Metallurgique has a substantial offset. It makes top dead centre interesting, as the piston and crank reach TDC at different points in the cycle. And the down stroke has a different duration to the upward stroke of the piston. Yes, re-read that bit. The graphs and diagrams explain it, but I found it difficult to get my head around for a while. 

 

I believe some modern engine designs are now offsetting their gudgeon pins, as well. Give them time, and maybe they'll try carbies and distributors, too!

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I hadn't thought about that but it must be the case with this engine as well. I'm going to have to figure the valve and ignition timing from scratch because even if I had the original specs (which I don't) I've changed the compression and the cam...it might be rather complicated and I can't say that is one of my strong points.

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Joe, looking through some of your early posts I came across your 12V generator combined, with the parts from a Bosch magneto. On the Humberette I have the incorrect magneto which has the wrong V-angle for the ignition, off hand I can't remember if it is 50o or 55all I know is that the correct magneto for the Humberette engines are apparently impossible to find. The mag that is on the car has been modified with electronic ignition, I am not impressed with the way it has been fitted and I intend to re do it. It would be good if I could also incorporate a small 12V generator to charge the 12V battery, for the ignition and the lights. The acetylene  lamps I will convert with LED bulbs. I have looked on the internet to try and find some useful information, but after about an hours searching, all to no avail, I remembered your early post about the subject. Do you have any information that may help me? 

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Yes. And you won't find anything on the internet. I pretty much dreamed this one up myself but I know it will work because I did it many years ago with a 1911 REO. I had to store it for the winter and the only way to get it to the storage garage was to drive it. I simply added a contact to the center of the cap, mounted a coil (a very old one) on the firewall and wired it as if it was a distributor. I'm happy to share what I've figured out but you might also do a search on this site. Several years ago a fellow restored a two-cylinder Buick and did something similar although he used a 12-volt alternator from a Kubota loader mounted inside the mag case. I think something like that might work better on the Humberette. I'm not satisfied with the job I did. It was just about the first thing I made and I made several errors. There are very small 12-volt alternators that might work just fine....

 

I've decided to go to a Bosch ZU4 mag and mount a generator or alternator where the oiler went. I haven't yet thought out how to disguise it but it will be something similar to the one I made from the mag... only without the distributor. You'll need a "parts" 2-cylinder mag, preferably the largest that will fit in the space or make the case to fit the distributor head on the mag.

 

I don't understand the "V-angle". It would seem to me that a 2-cylinder mag or distributor would just have 2 lobes opposite each other but you know a lot more about electrical engineering than I do.

 

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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I found it but this computer has a problem copying things. Do a search on "1911 Buick Model 14" and you should find it. The pictures, which were from Photobucket, are trashed but the description of what he did is there. I think I'd already made mine when I read this and thought "what a good idea."

Edited by JV Puleo
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Since my last post I've discovered that making the special hollow bolt to retain the cam bearing is a lot more demanding than I'd anticipated.

The lock nut was easy...

 

IMG_2743.thumb.JPG.571f4611ac147f7e787bbaebb0913e21.JPG

 

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Then everything went sideways. I made the bolt out of apiece of 1" hex. It has have a fairly large head because that is where the oil connecting banjo fitting will go.

 

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Threaded 1/2-20

 

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It worked fine, except that I made it too short. So, I made another. That was long enough but I made an error in the threading. The error was so small that I couldn't actually see it but it caused the bolt to be slightly off center and this design absolutely requires that it be perfectly straight. I only discovered what I'd done wrong much later, after I'd tried a third solution - making the bolt in two pieces.

 

This requires attaching the piece of threaded rod to the head. I'll do this by fitting a tapered pin and, if that works, try brazing it in place.

 

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This does allow me to get the vertical height exactly right...

 

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After I adjusted the height I put a little Locktite on the threads to hold it in place while I drill it. If this works, it will be fine. If it doesn't it gives me the perfect measurements to make another from one piece. I'm not particularly put out by all this. You have to expect that a few things won't go as planned and when that does happen I'd just as soon it didn't happen with original parts...I can always make another of these.

IMG_2749.JPG

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On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2020 at 8:40 PM, chistech said:

Get well mike and the hell with anything else right now! 

 

They let me out of hospital last night after being in isolation in there for 3-days. I seemed to have been the first person in the Norwich hospital with suspected Coronavirus and appeared to have been a "Guinea Pig" for their testing and isolation of suspected cases. Later today I will write, I hope, an amusing post of my time at the hospital, in my 1914 Humberette posts. I wasn't worried at the time, as nobody in Norfolk or Suffolk, had be recorded as having been found to have the virus.

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Mike, though I’ve never met you in person, we’ve spent lots of time learning about one another and others here through our threads. I consider you and a select few, my old car family and I’m truly concerned about your wellbeing,  like I know, some others are also. Please take care of yourself and get better first and foremost. The weather is starting to cooperate so I’m sure it won’t be long where you’re feeling much better. Take care my friend.

 

sorry for posting this here joe but I’m sure you have the same sentiments and wouldn’t mind

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Thank you Ted, I have the same feelings for the guys I have 'met' on this forum. All of you please keep safe as the virus is now spreading quickly in the western world. I seem to be much better now, hopefully this feeling will last and I can get on with some work. Mike 

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