Terry Harper Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 Joe, Shop around a bit for it. Tormach has it for $39.00 T 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 26, 2020 Author Share Posted January 26, 2020 I will. I'm probably years from needing it. Heck, I don't even have a radiator yet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 27, 2020 Author Share Posted January 27, 2020 Today I made these two little tools to trim the gaskets I need perfectly round. I also have been doing some experiments to see how I can add grease cups. It isn't as easy as it looks because where the bushing inside the pump is located. The grease fitting will have to be very close to the end plate. That said, I made this piece... 5/8 rod turned down to 3/8 and threaded. It will have to screw into the inlet side of the pump quite close to the end plate and that creates a problem with the width of the cap. I don't want to use Zerk or Alemite fittings because they are, as far as I know, too new. The threaded portion will have to go through the water passage so I'm thinking of using a 3/8 x 5/8 fiber washer on the outside as a gasket and threading the end to accept a grease cup that, when fully screwed down, will almost touch the outer rim of the pump. It will have to go in at an angle in order to avoid the nuts I made to hold the pump together. I have two of these brass grease cups which I think came off this car but they are a bit big so I'm looking for some with a smaller cap diameter. I also don't want to drill a hole in the piece that holds the pump in place but I think that can be solved by using a flush fitting. You will have to take the cap off to reach it but that should not be a problem and nothing will show. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted January 27, 2020 Share Posted January 27, 2020 Hello Joe, These types of problems are fun and actually enjoyable. My grease cups are 3/4" dia. across the caps. One is on an angle as well to clear the casting. If you really wanted to be devious you could make a custom grease-cup body hiding a zerk fitting inside. On our steam Lombard had a bazillion old fashioned grease plugs that when screwed in forced hard grease into the journals. For the most part we have converted all these to zerk fitting but they are hidden by threaded caps that look exactly like the old grease plugs. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 28, 2020 Author Share Posted January 28, 2020 You got me thinking...so I did an internet search and found a pdf of the 1895 Lukenheimer catalog. It has very nice drawings of all their products, including the grease cups. With that, I may try and make one - not a regular grease cup but one with a central threaded plunger. I may have what it takes sitting around the shop. Another thought was to make hard felt seals. That's what would have been done at the time and if they worked would be a lot more resistant to abrasion from the pump shaft than the modern rubber seals. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted January 28, 2020 Share Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) Joe, my neighbor is a polisher and had some old hard felt polishing wheels so he gave me one. I cut some slices on the band saw then using a sharpened hard brass thin wall tubing, cut washers for all my spring shackles on my Olds as I found nothing available to duplicate what was originally used. I still have some of that felt wheel if you need some. That wheel was two inches wide but could also be sliced the other way if you need a bigger diameter. Edited January 28, 2020 by chistech (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 28, 2020 Author Share Posted January 28, 2020 (edited) I decided I wasn't happy with any of the adaptations I came up with to use a regularly available grease cup because the area I have to work with is very tight. So, I decided to make one to fit the available space. The first thing I made was this nut... 5/8 across the flats. The rebate at the bottom will center on a fiber washer. The nut screws on to the long 3/8-24 threaded section. The big end, where the cap screws on, was threaded 7/8-18 which is an old SAE spark plug size. I thought I'd have to make a threading gauge but I remembered that I bought the tap to thread the caps that go over the intake valves. The Mitchell originally used pipe thread plugs but, because they fit Model T's, NOS plugs are really expensive so I made my caps to take the other size. I still have the original caps so I can use either type of plug. According to the late Harold Sharon, no modern plug is hot enough for a brass car regardless of the thread so I was able to buy a set of 6, nearly new, for something like $30. Most of the big threaded end will be cut off to make the top of the cap. and the long 3/8 section will be inside the pump. I have to cut it off and drill a hole through the entire piece, then make the cap. I would have liked to use brass for the nut but didn't have an 5/8 hex bar and didn't want to wait for it to come in. I doubt it will be noticeable, especially as, if this comes out right, it will look as if it was originally designed that way. Edited January 28, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 29, 2020 Author Share Posted January 29, 2020 This morning I cut the threaded end off the grease fitting... And drilled it. The tiny drill wasn't quite long enough so I drilled it from both ends. Grease cups have a funnel at the bottom but I don't have enough depth to do that. To get some "funnel" shape I used this HSS router bit, which really worked a charm. I put a little further taper in with a center drill also. With that done, I made the cap... Here it is screwed onto the fitting. I also put a knurl on the end. It is quite possible the OD will be a tiny bit too large. If so, I'll have to make a holding fixture and turn it down a small amount. The rest of the afternoon was spent dismantling the pump again and setting it up to mill a relief in the plate for the grease fitting. I have to do this in order to make the grease come out in the middle of the bearing. Strangely enough, the measurements worked out perfectly - as if I'd thought of this in advance. This was a tension wracked operation and when I finished, about 4:30, I decided to let the rest wait for tomorrow. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 30, 2020 Author Share Posted January 30, 2020 On 1/28/2020 at 12:18 AM, chistech said: Joe, my neighbor is a polisher and had some old hard felt polishing wheels so he gave me one. I cut some slices on the band saw then using a sharpened hard brass thin wall tubing, cut washers for all my spring shackles on my Olds as I found nothing available to duplicate what was originally used. I still have some of that felt wheel if you need some. That wheel was two inches wide but could also be sliced the other way if you need a bigger diameter. Thanks Ted. I have some 1/4" hard felt coming and I'll experiment with that first. I know it works with oil but I wonder if it will work in this case. It's worth finding out in any case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Ash Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 Yes, #1 felt works for grease seals, too. The #2 felt also works but is gray, not white. I've cut sheets using bits of steel or copper pipe sharpened to an edge in my HF 12-ton hydraulic press. The hole for the shaft wants to be just a little smaller than the shaft o.d. so as not to compress the felt too much and get excessive wear on the seal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 30, 2020 Author Share Posted January 30, 2020 The felt came in so perhaps, if I have the time tomorrow, I'll make a couple of seals for test purposes. Having milled the half-round relief for the grease cup (the really tense part), today I drilled a center hole... Then drilled through both walls of the inlet plate... I also used a counterbore to make a perfectly flat surface for the fiber washer. And then tapped the hole, all without moving the piece as it is critical that all these operations be in perfect alignment. I then assembled everything and discovered that the nut I'd made was much too short . something like .200. So, I made a new nut. I had an idea of how to use some 3/4 brass hex stock I have so, in the end, it's better for the problem. You can see the threaded piece passing through the water passage. I had intended to put sealing varnish on the threads but it all fits so perfectly that I may test it just as it is. I now have to make a holding fixture for the cap which is about .010-.015 to large in diameter. I thought that might be a problem because it's made of 1" bar and the milling cutter was 1" in diameter. That is cutting it too close and the milled relief was the really critical part. If I have to make another cap, so be it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 31, 2020 Author Share Posted January 31, 2020 To finish the grease cup I had to make another holding fixture. Another example of 2 hours to make the tool and 20 minutes to do the job. I think I'm my most severe critic but in this case I can't see how the job could have come out any better. In order for the greast to get to the shaft I put a groove in the bushing... and drilled 4 holes at 90 degrees. Then pressed the bushing back in. One little additional piece was the rear cover plate. I think it was rubbing a little and, since I reused this from the previous pump (and all the holes weren't drilled at the same time) I'm not surprised. In any case, it's just a cover for the seal so I drilled it out to 13/16 using a piece of the previous pump to hold it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 (edited) Are you going to run a single seal, or install two and keep the water out of the bushing entirely? Or you could cut a groove for a o ring and not have to modify anything else. Edited February 1, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 (edited) I like the O-ring idea. I'm afraid that removing enough bushing to add another seal would take to much away from the bearing surface though I've no data to tell me one way or the other. As it is, it's 1-1/2" on one side and 1-1/4" on the other side. The seals take up 1/4" so I'd loose that much on either side. Does that sound reasonable to you? On second thought...total length of bearing with 2 seals is still 2-1/4" which ought to be plenty given the relatively low stress on it, especially if no water can get to the shaft. Ed, you got me thinking so I did a quick search on bearing loads. In as much as my limited math skills allow it appears that the maximum recommended bearing surface is 4:1 (bearing length:shaft diameter). With a 3/4" shaft the length ratio is 3:1 WITH the two seals. Edited February 1, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 You have plenty of bushing, on my pumps I try and run ceramic seals if possible......we won’t go there. I also have run sealed bearings with seals on both sides.......overkill. You want to be able to lubricate the seals and bushing without pushing the seal lip out of position when greasing it. Use only real water pump grease.......not the modern synthetic stuff that says it’s ok but will plug the radiator. Cutting oil in the coolant and your current set up with water pump grease should be fine for a few hundred years of operation.......... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 Real water pump grease apparently isn't as easy to find as it once was. Somewhere I have a can of Oilzum that I bought in the Summer of 1971. I suspect it's oxidized by now so I was going to buy some Castrol when I'm in the UK next week. I mentioned this to a friend who was fixing something in my shop today and he said "don't bother" - he has several cans of it. I did plan I'd rather use the real stuff but it's good to know that is the right decision. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Macartney Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 I think you have made a fantastic job of that water pump and greaser. You make it sound so easy, which I know it's not. Bring some decent weather with you when come to England next week, we have had enough of rain and wind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 I'll try. So far we have had an extremely mild winter so perhaps the weather will follow me over. I've taken Ed's suggestions very much to heart...they remind me of one of my favorite quotes from Poor Richard's Almanac, "A wise man learns from other's mistakes. A fool has to make his own." I'm trying to finish the water pump before I leave...I may even do it. The grease cup came out better than it had any right to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 Moving along with the business of putting 2 seals on each side of the pump, I reduced the longer of the two bushings by 1/4" I then made an aluminum ring 1/4" thick to act as a dummy seal when I press the bearing in so it will stop at the right spot. That worked just fine... I then moved on to the front plate of the pump. This once is even more challenging because the grease has to go in through the boss on the plate as well as the split bushing which can 't come off once the timing adjuster is fitted. It is also under the cap that holds everything together and I'm loath to put a hole in that. After buying several grease fittings I came up with another idea. I made one of my threaded sleeves....1`/2-20 OD and 3/-16 ID. This will screw into the boss and I will put a notch in the split bushing to accommodate it. I've seen fittings like this before but I don't think on a car...the grease gun has a threaded tip that screws into the hole. When it's charged with grease, a grub screw is put in to plug the hole. The threaded sleeve has to be short enough so that it will not touch the cap that holds the pump but long enough to have a few threads. This sleeve is just under 1/2" so the grease gun will screw in 7 or 8 threads. You'll have to take the cap off to grease the front bearing but it is easily accessible. Lining up the front plate to drill the hole was something of a problem because I super-glued the brass studs in. I finally came up with something, having left last night wondering how to do it. I used a long center drill to start the hole. This drill is 1/2" in diameter so I set it so it was only about .003 from the face of the plate. Then drilled the hole... and tapped it... I put the sleeve in with a drop of Locktite on the threads but forgot to take a picture...next I'll do the notch in the split bushing but it's late and my back hurts so that's for tomorrow. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Harper Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 Hello Joe! Its looking great! In regards to the Super Glued studs.... Some heat from a propane torch will take care of the Super Glue then you can clean up the residue with Acetone. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 Hello Joe, What all do you intend to do while on the other side of the pond? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Macartney Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 10 hours ago, JV Puleo said: "A wise man learns from other's mistakes. A fool has to make his own." I like it; I must have helped to make a lot of wise men in my lifetime! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Macartney Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 3 hours ago, Terry Harper said: Some heat from a propane torch will take care of the Super Glue I have found that just using an electric heat gun works just as well to 'unstick' the superglue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted February 2, 2020 Author Share Posted February 2, 2020 (edited) 23 hours ago, alsfarms said: Hello Joe, What all do you intend to do while on the other side of the pond? Al I'm visiting friends and planning to spend a fair amount of time in the National Archives where I have a large number of figures to check for the book I am working on and that I expect to finish this year - so this is my last chance. Edited February 3, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsfarms Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 Joe, I have subscribed to get updates from the National Archives. That must certainly be a wealth of information! How large is the facility/museum/library? Just wondering, how do you get time to work on your book in conjunction with the Mitchell project taking most of your waking hours. You must never sleep! Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted February 2, 2020 Author Share Posted February 2, 2020 Oh, I sleep, but I don't have a TV and I haven't many friends in the area. I don't have a wife or children either so I've very few distractions. I do machine work during the day and writing/editorial work at night. When not doing either I read. I find the British National Archives quite easy to work with...it's a new facility (or at least in the last 15 years). The catalog is not difficult to use and if you have a problem so far I've found the staff very helpful. If you have a lot to do (as I do this time) you can request more the material in advance and they will have it ready when you arrive. Oddly enough, I've never been to the US Archives in Washington but I've been to Kew many times. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted February 2, 2020 Author Share Posted February 2, 2020 This is the front plate with the grease fitting fitted. I them milled a notch in the split bushing. It's 9/16" rather than 1/2" to give it a little clearance. Next I turned a notch in the bushing and drilled 4 holes at 90-degrees so the grease can reach the shaft. Then removed the extra 1/4". And pressed all the bushings in. So here it is assembled... And, in going through my stuff I found this neat little syringe that I will make into a "water pump only" grease gun for the special threaded fitting. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 Looks good to me! 👍 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted February 2, 2020 Author Share Posted February 2, 2020 Thanks Ed. I am certain it is much better for you suggestions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 Thanks Joe.......enjoy your trip over the pond. Looking forward to your next project. If you need a radiator, please post a photo and measurements in the event any of us come across one........unless you plan to make one yourself.......which I am sure you can accomplish. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted February 3, 2020 Author Share Posted February 3, 2020 (edited) I was planning on making a cartridge core. I even designed a little machine to swedge the tubes but I'm not adverse to buying one. I just won't (or more accurately can't) pay thousands for a radiator. Mitchell used a separate shell so I don't have the problem of making perfect brass tanks. Supposedly, the 1910 cars had brass shells and the 1911 cars had steel shells. I have my doubts it is that clear cut...most of the restorations have brass shells but that could easily be the usual business of getting as much brass on the car as the owner can justify. I prefer the steel shell because it draws out the line of the hood a little. One of the people I've been exchanging information with has offered to make me a shell. I have a radiator, albeit in very sad condition...too far gone to be used but good for dimensions. If I can I'll take a picture tomorrow and post the dimensions. Thanks,' jp Edited February 3, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Macartney Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 The water pump . . . yet another JV Puleo work of art . . . fantastic job Joe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted February 3, 2020 Author Share Posted February 3, 2020 I've just a few things to tidy up before I leave. Today I made new gaskets for the inlet and output sides of the pump. These are 1/8" thick, made from a rubber material that is semi-hard. I punched the center hole and then turned the OD on the lathe using the tools I made a few days ago. I get it down to a few thousandths more than the tool and then finish it with sand paper. It's probably a bit over the top but I think messy gaskets really detract from the job. Here they are in place on the output side... And with both ends assembled. I'm not going to bother testing it again since I know it works. The only thing I'd be looking for are leaks and all of the places where it leaked have now been addressed. I also took some pictures of the radiator but I'll post those tonight with the dimensions – which are at home. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bush Mechanic Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 That is one very elegant pump, JV. Well done! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 A throughly professional job..........I’m impressed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted February 3, 2020 Author Share Posted February 3, 2020 (edited) Here's the radiator. It looks better in these photos than it is. It was made by McCord - vertical tubes with thin brass fins. And this drawing I made in the process of figuring out how to make a core. I have photos of the Mitchell that carried the first trans-continental military dispatch which was of the same model but must have been a prototype because the trip was made in 1909 and the car wasn't offered for sale until 1910. That car had a honeycomb radiator. The radiator is about 2" thick but there is room for a core 2-1/4" or even 2-3/8" thick. Chances are, Mitchell just bought the cheapest radiator they could find. [CORRECTION] The radiator is 2-1/2 inches thick and there is room for 2-3/4". Edited February 4, 2020 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted February 4, 2020 Share Posted February 4, 2020 4 hours ago, JV Puleo said: I've just a few things to tidy up before I leave. Today I made new gaskets for the inlet and output sides of the pump. These are 1/8" thick, made from a rubber material that is semi-hard. I punched the center hole and then turned the OD on the lathe using the tools I made a few days ago. I get it down to a few thousandths more than the tool and then finish it with sand paper. It's probably a bit over the top but I think messy gaskets really detract from the job. Here they are in place on the output side... And with both ends assembled. I'm not going to bother testing it again since I know it works. The only thing I'd be looking for are leaks and all of the places where it leaked have now been addressed. I also took some pictures of the radiator but I'll post those tonight with the dimensions – which are at home. That's a great looking job Joe! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted February 8, 2020 Author Share Posted February 8, 2020 Thanks Mike...I'm in the UK now and, to some extent, recovered from the jet lag. I find it hard to sleep on airplanes so the trip, from home to here takes something more than 24 hours and I'm getting old for that sort of exertion. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Macartney Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 I don't think I have ever managed to get to sleep on an aircraft, even on the long flights to LA, that I have visited a couple of times. How I am at present, I don't think I could cope with all the hassle at the airports, let alone the flight. I think my flying days are over. My arms can't flap as fast as they did. Sorry, my jokes don't improve! If you manage to make it up to Norfolk it would be nice to see you, but if not, don't worry, as you know, we are a long way from Cheltenham. Enjoy your UK trip and I hope you manage to accomplish all you are hoping to do on this trip. Already I have been missing your posts on the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 Mike......I highly recommend British Air...........first class only of course.........reclining chair into a bed with your own private cubicle. Fantastic service, great food, unlimited Johnny Walker Blue ...........linen tablecloth, it’s very civilized. The only fault I can find with it is the 8k ticket price. 😎 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now