JV Puleo

My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project

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On 1/17/2019 at 2:01 PM, Spinneyhill said:

Yes, that is the common story. But I don't  believe it. Balls are spherical. How do you stop the first layer rolling away when putting the second layer on it? And it is on a SHIP, which is never stationary, so there is no way anybody could stack cannon balls like that!

 

The only reference to "monkeys" on a ship is the "powder monkeys" who carried the charge from the magazine to the cannon.

 

Now that I think of it, round shot was stacked next to guns in land installations. This would mostly be seacoast fortifications. Fortress carriages and naval carriages are virtually identical - or were in the 18th and very early 19th-century.

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Re: . . . I loaned him one of mine and he made two based on the dimensions. That's what I mean about exchanging stuff and expertise. I imagine this goes on all the time - at least I hope it does - but to the guys who think only with their checkbook it is largely invisible.

 

Yours and Al's comments are my sentiments entirely.

 

"ship shape and Bristol fashion"  - Another nautical expression springs up in the posts!

 

Joe, you have widened my horizons, I would never, in the past, even considered trying to make banjo unions. Thank for all your useful posts.

 

 

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Hello Joe,  I have several cast aluminum fans.  If you so desire, I can send better pictures of those that I have.  If you are interested in dimensions I can provide those also.  I have had one of them reproduced a couple of times from the original pattern.  What diameter are you looking for?  Next, I will only offer this as a possibility regarding your water pump problem.  I have a couple of old and unidentified water pumps that may be adaptable for your engine should you choose to go that direction.  The ones I have are brass and are typical early engineering with packing glands etc.  Please refresh my memory as to where your new banjo fittings will be used.  I think I missed something in the past.

Hello Mike, I see that you are from Norfolk.  Where is that from London?  My wife's family is from that area a couple of generations ago.   Secondly, where are you from Manchester, my direct family line came from that area five generations ago.  I have a goal to make a trip to visit my and my wife's homeland in a year or two.  Lastly, I admire your avatar.  What is the nice red automobile you are tillering?  If I ever get to it, I have a 1904-5 Cleveland two cylinder rear entrance project that is similar to your car.

Al

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Al, the diameter of the original fan is 18". I have room to go somewhat larger if needed. The hub area is unimportant as I'll just make the parts. As to the water pumps... I would much rather adapt an old one than make a new one but thus far haven't seen one I could use. The problem is the manner in which it attaches - although I could change that too if I needed to. Can you take some pictures? If you have one that looks as if it will work we can then get some dimensions. The pump shaft has to pass through the pump because it also drives the magneto/distributor.

 

Oh... the Banjo fittings are for the oiling system. One will connect the pump to the oil filter housing and oil manifold at the back of the engine. There is very little room there so I need the flattest fitting I can come up with. The other two are to connect the oil manifold to the oil filler pipe - which is really the breather tube. Because the car originally had a total loss oiling system the breather tube is the only way to get oil into the crankcase. It will be a little slow but that's not important. The connection the Banjo fittings are for is the pressure relief line that will send the oil back to the crankcase if the pressure rises above about 15lbs. I'd post a drawing of this if I had one. so far, I've only drawn parts of it to work out dimensions. The rest of it is still in my imagination - and I confess that I've never made anything that did not change a bit in the process.

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Joe, I will try to gather up a couple of my unidentified brass water pumps and take pictures, if they fit into your basic requirements.  I will also take a few pictures of the fans I have that can be recast for you.  I now get the "jist" about your banjo fittings.  Thanks for the description.

Al

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Joe,  Here are a few pictures of three different fans each of which could be reproduced.  I am also showing pictures of two different water pumps.  I thought they were both brass.  The pump with the shaft out both sides is actually cast iron.  The brass unit looks like it could be altered to be threaded for a packing gland and have a new shaft built to accommodate a different application.  Also the brass pump would need to have the peculiar mounting bracket removed or modified to allow mounting in a different fashion.  I will send these pictures in different postings so as not to overdose your computer.  This fan is a fan from an early series American-LaFrance .  You will see the hub I added to make the center hub more robust after recasting to allow for a better bearing and hub size.  This fan is 19.5" OD.  I have kept this fan as it is 6 bladed and has the band around the circumference.

Al

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This fan is an original from my Locomobile and could also be replicated, this is a true to form 1912 or earlier fan.  This fan is 18" OD and is made out of Galvanized sheet metal.

Al

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This fan is from a later teens and early 20's American-LaFrance.  This fan is 20" OD.

Al

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Hmm... I think the iron pump may be from an early Dodge - at least it looks similar. The brass pump is closer to what I'm looking for. I'm thinking that I could make a new cover and run the shaft through it but I'm finding it hard to visualize. I am sure that in order to utilize it I'd have to turn it around so the cover end was facing the front of the engine and I'm guessing the gland nut would then be turning the wrong way. I'm not sure how to deal with that, though I'm confident I could think of a way. ... use it in its current direction and make something that screws over the threads and against the housing... 

 

I also realized this afternoon that 17" is the largest diameter I can get in my lathe but your first set of photos gives me an idea... maybe I can make an aluminum hub and attach separate fan blades. I'm concerned with balancing the fan. I don't want one flying apart and gouging the radiator   (something I had an unfortunate experience with)...

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This is what I will have to replace.

 

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The water pump is in the lower right-hand corner. You can see how it was mounted on the engine There is room between the pump and the magneto to move it back and, while I'd like to use the original system, I'm open to changing the mounting details if I have to. This is really a poor design, to begin with. If you need to pull the water pump you have to remove the front covers and take the mag timing gear out with the pump. I intend to change that so I don't actually want a gland nut in the space between the two mounting flanges on the crankcase.

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Hello Joe,  I see what you are referring to regarding the Mitchell water pump.  I can't tell from the picture, but is your original pump brass or aluminum?  Have you had it open to evaluate the impeller and case for wear and damage?  I am with you on a modification to allow for this pump to be removed without getting into the front gear chest.  I will give you my "2 cent" thought on your pump dilemma.  I would explore the probability of rebuilding the pump you have, making a change to the design of shaft and coupling shaft and possibly relocating if needed.  If the internals are at least rebuildable, it would be easier to build a new discharge fitting and brazing that back onto the original pump case.  Yes it is a split case but you have the skill set that the repaired discharge fitting could be faced off and be as good as new.  After all this system is a low pressure design.  I can't see the water inlet port, is that inlet in good shape or is it broken also?  I have found that, with rare exception, is is easier to rebuild/repair original that start from scratch.  

Al

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The pump is aluminum. What you see in the picture is how it looked when the car arrived. There is a lot less of it now... in fact, it was so corroded from the inside that it literally fell apart when I tried to dismantle it. Believe it or not, the impeller was made from cast Babbit metal. I tried to replace the center (because it was badly worn) and melted it! The aluminum they used was really not suitable although it probably didn't fail in period. I'd like to move the pump back slightly so I can put a coupling in the shaft that will allow fine timing adjustment of the magneto. One problem I have is that with a new cam and higher compression the original timing would not be correct even if I knew what it was. I need a lot of adjustment since I won't be able to do that until the engine runs.

 

And, I agree re rebuilding vs. replacement but in this case, I've nothing to rebuild and the design was poor (i.e. cheap) to begin with. It is a lot different from the Loco where only the best materials were used and it was carefully made.

 

The water inlet is on the back side and points straight down.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Here's what is left of the original pump.

 

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On a more optimistic note, I've started setting the mill up to run as a horizontal. The oiling system is an old Chevy oil filter canister.

 

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Hello Joe,  Now I get a real concept of what your water pump is all about.  I will get you an OD measurement of the brass pump to allow you to make sure that the OD is not to large to fit in your available space.

Al

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Any thoughts of gluing the old pump back together and casting another? Then at least it will look like the original, even if the mountings etc. are not the same.

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I see that the thinking of our NZ friend has merit.  Adjustments could be made to the original casing to accommodate subtle changes that are desired and even to include the adjusted mounting.  What a fun puzzle to put back together.  The one side would not be too bad but the back would be a different story but is an option.  Probably the big issue would be sourcing a new impeller, even that could be doable potentially with a new MFG unit then cut down to fit and shape the blades with a lathe.  hmmmm......

Al

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The impeller is easy to make. I've actually made one that I might use. The hard part is the "involute of discharge". I have yet to think of a good way to machine that. Ideally, it would be done with some sort of cam-controlled cutter. I have thought of casting one - I could do that quite easily as my next-door neighbor is an aluminum foundry. The complicated part is the special fixtures that would be necessary to machine the casting. None of this is impossible but none of it is easy so using an old pump or making one that circumvents the problems seems like the best way to go.

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HI

I note the good machining you have carried out well done. I trust you have used an Aluminum Bronze in all of your yellow metal work, using brass or bronze will not end up with the end result you were looking when placed in use  Regards 

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I actually prefer bearing bronze. I only use brass on parts that are not bearings.

Having set the mill up to run horizontally, I milled the slots for the vanes in the rotor. I'm using a 1/4 staggered tooth cutter here. It leaves a much smoother finish on the inside of the slot.

 

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Here's the rotor with the slots milled, turned 45-degrees to start on the flutes. I decided not to bother with the rotor with the holes at the base of the slots. It turned out to be a good deal more difficult to set up than I'd anticipated so I used the other blank and milled the slots the full depth as Spinnyhill suggested.

 

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Without taking the dividing head off the mill, I then reattached the vertical head to mill the flutes. These are partly cosmetic but the amount of oil that a pump like this moves is determined by the difference between the mass of the rotor and the hole it is running in. By reducing the mass of the rotor I should be increasing the oil flow.

 

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This is the finished product. I'm satisfied with it... though I still have to drill & thread holes for the set screws that will hold it in place.

 

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I have some bits on order to finish the pump vanes but won't get them in time to do anything before I leave for my annual pilgrimage to the UK in about a week. So...as I try to get all my ducks in a row for the trip I made the oil filter housing. Some time ago I bought this oil "pre filter". The only part I wanted was the filter screen - the black anodized housing with purple ends is obviously not appropriate but they did understand filter screens in 1910 so I'm not averse to using one that is probably finer than what was available then.

 

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For the housing, I'm using a piece of brass tubing I actually bought to make the intake manifold before I discovered it was slightly too big. I'll thread both ends for caps. One cap will connect to the oil manifold and the other to the oil pump (which is what one of the banjo fittings is for).

 

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By using the dial indicator, I'm able to cut the threads on both ends to exactly the same depth. When I make the caps, they should work on either end.

 

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Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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This is going to be one of the two caps for the oil filter housing.

 

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Bored out to what I thought was the minor diameter... I was actually about .015 small so it took longer than it should have to thread it.

 

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But, it came out just fine. I'm getting better at threading. In this case, both ends screw into the cap and the threads don't even have to be lapped.

 

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Unfortunately, I have to make the caps one-at-the-time in order to be certain that the threads are absolutely concentric with the hole. But, having done this a dozen times now it is definitely getting easier.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Hi Joe

I've got a 3 blade cast aluminum fan with a built in hub. It's about 18 inch dia. The blades could easily be cut back if they're too long. I bought it years ago thinking it would work on my 12 Oakland but, you know...that wasn't the case. Here's some pictures. Maybe it will work for you

Ken

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