JV Puleo

My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project

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It is. I've been collecting brass era books for mechanics, the precursors to modern shop manuals, for a long time and have quite a good selection – running from 1904 to 1917. This two-volume Heldt book is the best by far because it covers virtually every aspect of engine and chassis design. You get a picture of what was possible, what they knew about and what they didn't know yet. You should try to find a copy....title is The Gasoline Automobile the Peter M. Heldt. Heldt was the editor of Horseless Age Magazine, an accomplished engineer in his own right and one of the founders of the SAE. The SAE was partly, at least, the result of an editorial he wrote in Horseless Age suggesting such an organization was needed. It was updated and published regularly right up through the 30s but, for our purposes, we'd want one of the early ones. My set is 1910 (vol. 1) and 1912 (vol 2). I think these were the first editions of each... the engine volume came out before the chassis volume. Later editions were published together. I have a volume I from the 1917 edition that is essentially the same as the 1910 edition. The cars had certainly changed but he often describes the evolution of a  feature and thus goes into some detail about the designs used before the ones currently (when the book was published) being used.

 

I should add that forum member 1912Staver put me on to this book. Until he mentioned it, I'd never heard of it. That was only about a year ago so, in all my collecting everything I'd seen up to that date, I'd never run into it.

 

 

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)

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Joe,  I will browse around and see if EBAY may have something listed.  I do have several other early books two of which are Audel's and one of which is a Dykes.  Both have good information.  I also have a few sales books put out by Locomobile which are good to show assembly, parts and specification.  It is very hard to restore our antiques with no guiding light that is provided by literature.

Al

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Joe,  I did a quick search of EBAY and found that it has a good compliment of Gasoline Automobile books.  My problem is I am not familiar with any of them so I do not know what would be most suited for our teens and earlier cars.  If you do a similar search you will see that the descriptions are not very good.

Al

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I will give ebay a look but you should try bookfinder.com

It is a used book dealer's aggregate listing service. I've often found items there for much less than the average ebay seller wants which isn't surprising when dealing with book dealers...they often know how limited the market is for something like this. With bookfinder, you can search on the authors name or the title or both and get a large selection of prices - which are often all over the place. Very often, I find the original edition of an early book for much less than the low quality modern reprint.

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For some reason, my computer does not copy and paste very well - it works occasionally but not always.

In any case, I found Volume I (the one on engines), 1915 edition for about $18.00 (including shipping from England). That edition would be entirely pertinent to brass era cars. I have a "print on demand" copy of the 1926 edition and can verify that the quality is extremely poor... many of the illustrations are barely visible. It simply isn't worth buying a reprint unless the book is otherwise unavailable but with things like this, that is rarely the case.

 

I think I paid about $80 for my two-volume 1910/1912 set. That included the little booklets that originally came with the set with large fold-out illustrations of the engines. I may have copied one of those, of a Wisconsin engine, for you or someone else. I also have JE Homans... it isn't as useful but still good. I may have a duplicate of 1909... it's yours if you want it.

 

EDIT:  Actually, it is 1905/1906 I have a duplicate of.

 

jp

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)

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I've had one of those weekends where nothing went as planned. Making the exhaust manifold flanges proved a real headache... mostly because, for some reason I couldn't get the hole spacing correct. I did, finally, get somewhere but I'm not entirely pleased with the outcome. Here are the flanges with the sections that will go to the body of the manifold. These are all oversize. The finished flange will be about 3/8" thick. The tubes screw into them. This is to allow for adjustment when I make the body of the manifold. As it is, I have no drawings and no example to go on so I'm flying a bit blind. You'll notice the divits in the sides of the flanges. This was the result of my not getting the hole spacing right and having to do it again, 90 degrees off. I'm going to ask a friend to weld these up. If that doesn't work, I'll have to make them over. The wall thickness of the tubes is also much too thick. That is intentional. After they are welded to the body of the manifold, I intend to bore them out. That way they will be perfectly concentric with the manifold.

 

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Here they are bolted to the blocks. They do seem to line up correctly. They are probably twice as long as they will be finished but I have no way to accurately measure how long they should be until I make the manifold body. The location of that part is determined by where the exhaust pipe runs. All this is part of reverse engineering a part when you don't have an original to go by.

 

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Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)

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Hello Joe,

 

On your vane pump could you use a simple spring loaded bypass valve? Here is the drawing for the service pump for the Wisconsin.

 

This is the lower half or service pump and the gears.

Of importance is the passage on the upper right tapped 7/8-18 for a adjustable spring loaded plunger (note the offset cross-passages). When the pressure exceeds the

set amount it forces the plunger back and allows the excess to bleed back into the pan. Its a very low pressure system (5-10 psi) more dependent on volume than

velocity. While this looks like a complex piece it would be fairly easy to simplify and re-configure.

 

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Edited by Terry Harper (see edit history)

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Thanks Terry. I was thinking along those lines but I have a difficult time envisioning what it would look like so this is a help. There isn't room inside the body of the vane pump for an integral bypass but I don't see why it couldn't be external, in the output line, returning the oil to the sump. Rather than being adjustable, if it was spring loaded it would just be a matter of trying out springs until it released at the right pressure.

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1 hour ago, JV Puleo said:

a matter of trying out springs until it released at the right pressure.

You should be able to calculate the required spring? The area of the plunger x pressure = force on the spring. Just get a spring of the required force/deflection ratio and you are finished?

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Good idea... I admit to being science challenged... what I do know was all learned by rote.

Thanks,

 

jp

 

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Perhaps I should explain a bit more about the oil pressure issue. The original system was a drip oiler run off the front pulley. For any number of reasons, I'd prefer not to use that. It wasn't as good as a recirculating pump and I'm sure they knew that. This was the last year it was used.

 

The vane pump I've designed will work off the back of the camshaft with no alterations to the original crankcase but, it is a problem getting its output down to the recommended levels. Given the diameter and length of the bearings, Heldt recommends about 445 cubic inches of oil at maximum revolutions per minute which I'm optimistically saying is 1800 rpm. The pump will produce about 1/2 cubic inch per revolution or 900 cubic inches at 1800 rpm. I could easily alter the pump to produce twice that amount so my problem is figuring out how volume I need to supply the bearings and maintain some pressure. The oil lines may not feed directly to the bearings. I don't know because the engine was apart when I got it and there are no internal oil lines... but there may have been. I might also be able to add them (and I am inclined to do so) but until I start on the bottom end I won't know exactly what I'm dealing with.

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Joe, like you I did not desire to run a "full lose" oil system on my Locomobile.  The one good thing about a full lose system is that the oil was once through.  Clean oil was fed to the engine (except the oil that was splash lubricating the bottom end).  When the oil was at a high level I suppose the early travelers probably just drained it on the ground.  (Maybe that is where the term "oiled road" comes from).   I decided to simply go with a bit of pressurized oil, set the relief at a fair rate, then add to that system an oil filter.  If I owned a very good survivor car that was running on the drip oiler system I would ABSOLUTELY stay with that system.  You have some novel ideas and I watch with interest.

Al

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I agree completely. One of the reasons I undertook this project was that I could not make these sort of changes to an intact, original car. My car was probably someone's abandoned project - a "parts car" they were trying to reassemble by finding the missing parts. It simply isn't realistic with a relatively obscure brass era automobile. I didn't realize it was so poorly built until I was well into it. I'm not keen on pulling over to the side of the road to dump some oil...and I'd be you might get a citation for that today. The fact is, in period most cars were over oiled, smoked like crazy and fouled plugs constantly because their operators (very few of which could drive when they bought a car) simply didn't know how to operate them efficiently. It might have been different with a big, high quality car with a professional driver but even then I bet many learned on the job. My late great uncle was a chauffeur for a time, before WWI, and got the job because he was known as a good mechanic. He'd never driven a car but the owners of the car he drove knew absolutely nothing about how they worked. I just found a photo of that car - and the runabout they bought so he could run errands for them without using the "big car"...

 

I sold a 1911 REO tourer that was in incredibly complete original condition, partly because I didn't like the slab-sided body but felt that changing it was unacceptable. Also, they oiled the roads regularly... it was an early way of keeping the dust down. I'll get an oil filter of some sort into the system somewhere and I'm using an air filter, even though they weren't invented at the time. I've too much invested in this project to wear the engine out in 5,000 miles.

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Joe,  How many hours a day to you think you are investing into this Mitchell project.  I would sure like to be able to devote much more time on the Locomobile project.

Al

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I have no idea. When I'm making something, it may be 6 or 8 hours per day. There are times when I am on something else as I have some other responsibilities. Lately it has been closer to 8 or 10 hours per day but that can't keep up as I find myself getting stale and making errors. You also have to count mistakes...things I've made and then decided I didn't like or I thought of something better. So, I spent many hours designing a plunger oil pump but have now decided to go with the vane pump. I must have spent a month making a combination generator/distributor but have now decided to go with a separate generator and a separate, simplified version of my distributor. I don't think of it as wasted though as it is all a learning experience. Like I said at the beginning, I'm not a real machinist, just an enthusiastic amateur. A real machinist would not make as many errors as I have (though they are getting fewer). I think of it as a self-imposed apprenticeship.

 

Al, when you tested your oil pump, how did you simulate the connection between the oil lines and the main bearings? I can visualize a test fixture but the main bearing oil lines will be open at the ends which will not generate the pressure being fed directly into the engine bearings should.

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Put a pressure release valve on the end of the line and see what comes past it?

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Hi Joe,

I'm another lurker, I've been enthusiastically reading your posts since the beginning. I look forward to the next episode of "a problem revealed and a solution devised."

Thanks for the time and effort you put in.

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You are welcome. I'm doing this because I'm guessing that there are more than a few of us interested in this sort of thing. Today I started assembling the intake manifold... I should have more photos tomorrow night.

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I've gotten back to the intake manifold. Using one of the clamps I made to hold the crankshaft and soldering the "T" fitting to a short piece of tubing. This held the fitting securely while I filed and polished. It is tedious - and not one of my favorite jobs but it did work reasonably well. Here I've just taken the T off the piece of tubing.

 

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The same clamp served to hold everything while I soldered the pieces in place.

 

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Here's the finished piece. I suppose it could use a bit more polishing but, after all, it's also supposed to be 100 years old.

 

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The last step was to mount it on the engine. I had to do this in order to calculate the angle of the bend of the piece that holds the carburetor. The last step will be soldering the ends into the elbows. As it stands right now, I can move it up and down slightly. This small amount of adjustment will allow me to get the carburetor flange perfectly level. It certainly doesn't look like the pipe fitting it started life as.

 

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That looks great Joe!

 

Makes me want to get back to finishing my manifold  - the castings of which are collecting dust on the work bench.

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This is the carburetor side of the engine. In addition to finishing the intake manifold, I have to make the exhaust manifold and the water line connections and all of these cannot interfere with each other. Also, I am including an oil distribution manifold. The mechanical oiler was located on this side of the engine so all of the oil lines ran externally to their destinations. Since I'm moving the oil pump to the rear of the camshaft, I need a way of connecting it to the proper outlets. The oil distribution manifold should do this. It will be attached to the two water lines seen here. What you see in the photo are a pair of crossover pipe connectors. I had intended to use these but the more I fiddled with them, the less they seemed adequate to the task.

 

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So... I'm making my own. I'm not certain this will work perfectly but it is worth a try. Ordinarily, I don't like using "mystery metal" but in this case, the two pieces of each hanger will be brazed together (a technique that was commonly used in the period)... so I am making the parts out of some old pieces of mill shafting I have left over from my garage days, about 40 years ago. By making these to suit the purpose, I can alter their sizes to work better. The first part was to bore and ream the pieces... the upper pieces are reamed 1" (and will be bored out to 1.1" when they are done so that they will slide over pieces of 3/4" brass pipe). The lower pieces are bored and reamed 1.25".

 

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All of the pieces are 1/25" long. In order that they fit properly, I have to be fairly precise in making them although this has very little to do with their actual function. The pieces of shafting I cut were about 1-3/4" long so with one end squared off, I marked them at 1.25" using this antique Brown & Sharpe height gage. This will allow me to get them close... when I'm actually trimming them I'll measure them with a micrometer.

 

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I should add that forum member alsfarms has generously offered to arrange the tube bending needed to complete the intake manifold. While that is happening, I'll work on the water connections and the exhaust manifold.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Hello Joe,  I finally have some information regarding the 1.5" threaded brass fittings I plan to use in the building of my intake manifold.  Please remind me how much meat you were left with when you removed the outside strengthening rib and skimmed out the ID threads on your 1.250 brass fittings?  I am coming up with about .067 wall thickness after I remove the threads and rib on a similar 1.5 brass elbow or tee.  I think it will be doable but I need to make sure that I stay concentric to keep the wall uniform around the circumference.  What are your thoughts?

Al

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