My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project

[JV Puleo]

The chuck is attached to an aluminum plate, much like a backing plate for a lathe chuck. The plate has a 1-1/2" hole in the center. I made a matching 1-1/2" plug mounted on a #3 Morse taper. When I want to put the chuck on the rotary table, I just put the center in and drop the chuck on it. It comes out automatically centered. I made that a long time ago so I wouldn't want to guarantee the centering is accurate to more than .005 but that is plenty close enough for this type of work. As far as mounting on the mill, the rotary table is made to be used either flat or standing up. I just square it up to the table and use two or three conventional hold-downs to keep it from moving. You can see the one in the front in one of the pictures. There were two more in the back. Ideally, the rotary table would have blocks on the bottom and side to align with the slots but it's a metric RT so I'd have to make very precise blocks with a step in them to get it perfect. I find it is easier, for the little I do this, to just use a big machinist's square to make sure it is square with the table. If I were looking for really extreme precision (as I will be on the next piece), I'd mount the whole ting and use an indicator attached to the column to make sure it was perfectly parallel when it moved left to right.

Edited July 28, 2018 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Luv2Wrench]

Great ideas, once I get done with the MG I'm going to spend a few weeks making fixtures and items for the machine tools and a chuck I can move around and mount in various places is high on the list.

 

[JV Puleo]

How has your spindle problem worked out? From this thread, I gather you've been using your lathe so I was wondering about that. I seem to remember you only had a 3-jaw chuck. A 4-jaw is just about impossible to do without and once you get accustomed to using it you'll probably never use the 3-jaw again. I have a very good 3-jaw a friend gave me a couple of years ago... I even have a big piece of cast iron to make the backing plant from but I've never had enough need of it to be bothered. I may get it done someday but it's a very low priority.

[Luv2Wrench]

The nose of the spindle is still bent, however, it seems it was bent before the back plate was made for the 3-jaw.  As such, if you have the chuck bolted into the correct 3 bolts of the back plate, almost all of the runout is removed.  When I made the dummy layshaft I was able to turn that out to 8" with about a thousandths deviation.   It isn't correct of course and a collet system that fit in the nose wouldn't work.   When I get done with the MG I plan to address the spindle issue.  I'll probably make a fixture such that I can hold the MT4 reamer in place and ream the inside of the spindle true.  From there I can then turn around and ream the tailstock.  I'll make a couple of back plates and get a 4-jaw and some type of collet system.  I got two extra dial indicators and I'll be mounting them to the cross slide but I'm also planning on replacing the ACME thread and nut.  I feel like I can use the lathe well enough at this point that I can tackle these tasks and once I do, I'll have a heck of a lathe.  Of course... I wouldn't have anything without that bull gear you modified for me.  

 

Edited July 29, 2018 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

That sounds like a plan. You probably should rough bore the spindle nose to MT4, then use the reamer. I think you'd have to set the taper with the compound and go in very lightly, by hand, taking the smallest possible cut. (I made a nose for an AT3 collet once that way. In the end, I wasn't happy with it because it still ran out .003 but if I'd kept at it, I may have been able to reduce that to .001) Otherwise, the reamer will follow the hole. I was wondering if the backing plate was made after the spindle was bent, since the 3-jaw you have is fairly new. .001 run out in 8" is very good. I'm confident you can get it trued up and, years from now, will hardly remember the headache of doing it.

 

Here's the manifold piece trimmed to size. It looks as if I'll be off to see the welder on Monday.

 

Edited July 29, 2018 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I wonder if you could use a Dunmore tool post grinder to grind the inside of the spindle? I'll think about that... I can loan you one. Actually, I have two of them and have never used either.

 

jp

[Luv2Wrench]

I purchased an MT4 reamer set where one is rough and the other fine.   I don't think they really specified how rough was rough or how fine was fine. 

 

I am concerned about it just following the hole.  It is a fairly beefy reamer and if I could get it mounted securely enough and take really small cuts by hand it might work.

[JV Puleo]

I'm thinking in terms of grinding or turning off just enough material to "straighten" the hole. When the spindle was made, I'll bet they put the tapered hole in first and then finish ground the spindle with a special center in the hole so that the two would be concentric. I believe Dunmore made a long extension as one of their accessories and will bet this is exactly the application they had in mind.

 

j

[JV Puleo]

This is what I was thinking of (borrowed from ebay). Tomorrow I will look at mine, one of which is in its metal carrying case with various tools & accessories. I've never really looked closely at it because I haven't had any need for it. It came with another machine I bought...the seller thought it might be part of that machine. I wasn't paying attention or I might have given it back. You can see where, with the right grinding stone, it could be made to reach right in and correct the taper.

 

[JV Puleo]

I delivered the manifold pieces to the welder today so it may be a week before they are back.

These are going to be the plugs for the ends...

 

 

Turned to size (2-7/8") The fixture is something I made years ago to turn a set of wooden drive sheaves for a very early Brown & Sharpe mill I owned. I just about never discard my old fixtures. It's surprising how often I'm able to use them again.

 

 

Then a rebate turned to press into the manifold. I doubt a press fit was necessary but it wasn't any more work. I still have to turn the back plug around and do that one but my back hurts and there is always tomorrow.

 

 

 

[JV Puleo]

The next step was to drill and thread the caps. I did the first one 3/4 NPT. I'd been planning to just put a pipe plug in it but I used the wrong drill for the hole and the threads weren't as deep as I'd like. This brought on one of my "on the fly" changes.

 

 

I decided to plug the hole, since the cap at the front of the manifold should be blank. I then drilled and threaded the other cap 1/2 NPT (and used the right drill this time). I want a fitting at the rear in case I decide to use the exhaust to pressurize the gas tank as I have a very nice original air pump I'd like to use. The hole was plugged with an old, solid 3/4 pipe plug I pulled from some odds and ends of steam pipe in the building. I screwed it in as tight as it would go and then faced off both caps to get a smooth surface.

 

 

I then milled a concave relief in both faces. This is largely cosmetic although it will reduce the weight a little. The primary reason for doing it is to make the finished product looks as if it was well thought out.

 

 

Here are the two pieces finished. I haven't decided what to use for a plug at the rear but that can wait...

 

[Luv2Wrench]

Looks "well thought out" to me! 

 

[Bush Mechanic]

Very professional looking end caps.  How did you decide to fix them into place?

[JV Puleo]

I'm going to braze them in. But, no sooner did I get these done and my friend Mike West gave me an even better idea... to use big core plugs. I'm not sure I can do it now because the pieces will have been welded but I ordered some just in case. I am concerned about weight so I'll see if they might work better. I will still have to do something about a fitting on the back if I want to bleed off pressure but they are cheap and worth taking a close look at.

 

 

[Bush Mechanic]

Core plugs have many uses. I find it interesting watching how you find solutions by machining. Having started out with welders, and no lathe or mill, my thinking usually tends toward welding fabrication. Though I have only built 3 or 4 exhaust manifolds. The mandrel bends are a great resource for building them. Much easier to get a neat finish than with the packed sand bending methods which I persevered with originally.

 

Thanks for taking the time to document your restoration. I have picked up a few machining tricks from your posts.

 

Mick.

[JV Puleo]

That is an interesting perspective because I'm coming at it from exactly the opposite background, having very little knowledge of welding and, for the most part, working around that by machining things. I do have welding equipment and were this a "rough and ready" job I might even try using it (though I haven't for years) but with so much work in it already I hate to take the chance. It's a virtual certainty that I'd do a poor job. The only reason I've never learned to weld is that 99% of my work has been mechanical on cars that didn't have many, or any, welded parts. This is only my 2nd exhaust manifold. The first was for a 1939 RR Wraith - the pre-war small horsepower car. They only made about 700 of them before the war began and, as fate would have it, the only bomb to strike the RR plant wiped out the complete sore of parts for that model. The exhaust manifold was a complicated and, I think, not very well thought out design. The one I replaced was literally held together with hose clamps, muffler tape and pieces of tin cans. The one I made didn't look anything like it (although it did look like a PI or SG manifold). The important thing was that it worked.

[Bush Mechanic]

I looked up the RR manifolds. The three into one Wraith unit certainly would be rather difficult to construct by machining methods, but reasonably straight forward with a box of mandrel  bends, a 'Y' piece and a welder. The P1 'log' manifold is probably not very efficient, but could be constructed OK. In either case they would not look particularly 'pukka', if originality was important.

I like that long induction tube passing over the head on the P1. Perhaps I can see a trace of it's influence in the inlet manifold on your Mitchell?

[JV Puleo]

I suspect you are thinking of a Ghost rather than a PI for the long induction tube that passes over the top of the engine and yes, that was where I got the basic idea. I even though of doing it the same way but there wasn't room. I'm not sure if "mandrel bending" was even around when I made the Wraith manifold. It may have been but I wouldn't have known about it.

 

 

PIs have an aluminum manifold that the carburetor bolts to.

[Bush Mechanic]

Yes, I must have been looking at the wrong model of RR. The threaded tail-pipe connector on the exhaust manifold above looks very similar to yours as well. I had not noticed that type before you built yours.

 

By mandrel bends, I mean machine formed tube bends which you buy off the shelf. 30, 45 90, 180 and 360 degree (dough-nut) bends and 'Y' pieces, etc. Locally available here in stainless, black and coated (exhaust) steel, in a good choice of diameters. Endless possibilities. Cut, rotate, weld, and finish so that the joints disappear. Lots of fun. I think some-one, (Alsfarms?) mentioned them in your thread. I first found them about 25 years ago, but have no idea when they came into use.

[JV Puleo]

Yes. It was alsfarms who suggested having the piece for the intake manifold bent and then generously offered to deliver it to a company in his area that could do it.  Since the angle was dictated by the engine and it's copper tube so it wasn't something I could get "off the shelf." That bent piece really makes a huge difference in the appearance of the entire unit. I think that may have been the first I'd heard of mandrel bending but I was away from old cars for a long time. The RR manifold I made was probably 35 years (or maybe 40) ago. I've only been reinvolved since I bought the Mitchell about 5 years ago.

 

I didn't get anything done today. I was out of town to take some photos at a museum in Boston but I did work out how to hold the manifold pieces that are being welded in the lathe. I like the idea of using core plugs on the ends so much that I ordered some in 2-5/8". I will counterbore both ends (the current ID is 2-1/2") and braze them in. Tomorrow I'll make a fitting for the rear cap so I can attach a pressure line if I want to.

[JV Puleo]

I'm still waiting on the welder and don't really expect to see my parts this week. In the meantime, I made this fitting to go into the rear cap. Since I've decided to use the core plugs, I don't have the thickness the plugs I made had so I worked this up from a 3/4 fine thread bolt.

 

 

It is threaded 1/8" NPT. I'll put a plug in it for the time being but it should give me a place to attach a pressure line to pressurize the gas tank. It's easy enough to make although cutting the bolt down was actually the hard part. I used this aluminum piece from my box of failed experiments. I think it was intended to be part of a distributor I was making.

 

 

Here is the finished part and one of the bolts I made it from.

 

 

I also have to fit a small chuck to my dividing head to make the last part. I bought this small B&S dividing head many years ago, before I realized that getting the missing bits was a real problem. It took a long time and I've only just now ordered an adjustable tailstock to use with it. I think I have a drawer full of indexing plates that don't fit... the result of reading ebay descriptions written by people who don't have any idea what they are selling. Were I to do it again, I'd have paid up and bought a complete head with the tailstock. I should make a cast iron backing plate but that is a lot of work and I've used this maybe 4 times in 8 years so I decided to take the cheap route and bought a small import chuck that I will fit to a backing plate. It will be held in the dividing head using a collet.

 

 

To get it perfectly centered, I faced it off, drilled and tapped 5/8-16 and screwed in an import threaded arbor that I presume is made for drill chucks. I've found these very useful for making special tools. They aren't expensive and save a lot of extra work.

 

 

With the piece gripped in the lathe by a collet, I will turn the diameter and rebate for the chuck. Then it goes into the rotary table to have 3 holes drilled in the outside edge. Those don't have to be absolutely perfect if the rebate is accurate as that is what centers the chuck.

[Luv2Wrench]

Yep, one undeniable (and sometimes only) advantage of the cheap tools is they can be a great starting point.

 

[JV Puleo]

I think that cheap tools have an important role to play. The challenge is deciding what that should be. Items that will see limited use or that will never be taxed to extremes can safely be bought inexpensively. The chuck here is a case in point. On a dividing head, it won't even be spinning. If it has .003 runout, that is nearly as good as the best and of very marginal importance as part of a milling fixture. Your sandblaster is the opposite situation... a machine that may not get constant use but when in use, it's intensive and it's shortcomings make it difficult to actually get the job done. Generally, I've found the inexpensive import tools to be good value in inverse relation to the number of parts involved. One piece items like the drill chuck arbor above are about as good as any but the more complicated the product, the more it is likely to fail.

 

The other consideration is that without some of these cheap import products we wouldn't have them at all. About 99% of my tooling is 2nd hand American stuff. I cannot afford to purchase new... if that was required I'd just have to quit. Many years ago, when I had a garage and before the days of "Harbor Freight" I paid $100 for a very used American floor jack. There was absolutely no way I could have afforded a new one. It blew out its seals at least twice a year and each time it cost me $75 to get it repaired. Today I could buy a new one each time but, truth to tell, I've only ever worn out 1 cheap jack... and that one lasted the best part of 10 years.

 

In the past year, I think I've bought 4 things that were made in India. The finish isn't as wonderful as old Brown & Sharpe tools but the workmanship is serviceable and, to my eye at least, a little better finished than the Chinese products. The stuff that was made from the 1880s to the 1930s was often beautifully finished and built to last much more than a lifetime as witnessed by my machines, most of which are nearly as old, and often older, than the Mitchell and still in everyday use....unlike any car of the same era. Given a choice, that is what I prefer but sometimes that just isn't realistic.

Edited August 3, 2018 by JV Puleo
typos and removing extraneous words (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

The backing plate turned to the diameter of the chuck and then a rebate to press into the back of the chuck. This is the most critical measurement because it is what really centers the chuck on the backing plate.

 

 

Then drill the holes for the attaching socket head cap screws. These are very slightly oversize since their only purpose is to hold the chuck and backing plate together. The cap screws are metric and I don't have many metric drills so I used a letter size "O" which gives me about .006 clearance.

 

 

Much to my satisfaction, everything lined up perfectly.

 

 

I then attached it to the dividing head. It has been so long since I used this that I spent the last hour of the day refreshing my memory on how it worked.

 

 

The tailstock also arrived. I have to make a small modification to that in order to be able to bolt it to the mill but it looks as if I will have all my ducks in a row when the welding cones back.

[JV Puleo]

I picked up the welding this morning. To my eye, it looks fine. At one point I planned to file the welds smooth but I think I'll forgo that. I've seen a period manifold made with welded tube and, in the long run, I don't really care if anyone notices.

 

 

The next step was to bore out the inlet tubes. I should have used thinner wall tubing for these but I bought the materials before I'd thought of the clamps I eventually made. Here I'm finding the center. The trick is to get it both centered and perfectly vertical. I did that with a piece of 1/2" ground stock. When it moved freely between the tool holder and the workpiece I knew it was both.

 

 

 

The first piece was easy enough but I then discovered that I'd badly outsmarted myself. The end that connects to the downpipe wouldn't fit in the vise. I tried this... with a special vise to hold really long pieces.

 

 

That didn't work either. It was impossible to grip the tube tightly enough to keep it from moving. This really had me going for several hours until I came up with this Rube Goldberg setup griping the neck of the inlet tube with the fixture I used to cut the 2-7/8" radiuses. I had my reservations about this but couldn't think of anything else to try short of stopping and making a new set of holding fixtures... at least an all day job.

 

 

It actually worked quite well. There was no vibration although I took very light cuts to make sure I didn't press it. Luckily I only had to go from 1.5" to 1.650 - the diameter of the outlet ports. It's pointless to make the holes any bigger so I stopped as soon as I'd gone a few thousandths over.

 

I then attached to two pieces to the blocks and aligned them with a piece of 2-1/2" OD tube. As you can see, they came out as good as anyone could wish. The next job is to make the piece that goes in the middle. This will be (if the idea works) a lot more elaborate than it really has to be but I'm in this so far that I don't see any reason to stop now.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Luv2Wrench]

Great work as always, really great to see it taking shape on the engine!

That's a nice two piece vise.  I found a Bison on CL but the seller doesn't want to ship it and I'm not willing to drive that far for a vise that doesn't fit a table that I currently own.  I'll need it one day and I'll probably regret that decision.  

The hold downs with the mini-stair steps looks really useful, what is that called?

 

[Bush Mechanic]

   " but I'm in this so far that I don't see any reason to stop now."

 

Now that's the kind of sentiment we need!

[Bush Mechanic]

35 minutes ago, Luv2Wrench said:

Great work as always, really great to see it taking shape on the engine!

That's a nice two piece vise.  I found a Bison on CL but the seller doesn't want to ship it and I'm not willing to drive that far for a vise that doesn't fit a table that I currently own.  I'll need it one day and I'll probably regret that decision.  

The hold downs with the mini-stair steps looks really useful, what is that called?

 

 You could build one yourself, when you have nothing else to do...   

 

[JV Puleo]

The hold downs are a bog standard import item - If you find them on ebay there are about 50 vendors, all using the same picture. I held off buying them for a long time but they have really come in handy and now, if I didn't have them, I'd have to figure out how to make them. I think I bought mine from Victor Machine because they listed the right size T-nut with 1/2" bolts. I wouldn't mind having a 2nd set... but I think that can wait. It's a one-man shop and there are only so many things I can do at once.

 

For whatever reason, my two-piece vise had never worked when I tried using it. That has more to do with what I'm using for than it does with the vise but it is strange. Every time I get it out I end up putting it back and doing something else. In the case above, the ends of the tube, although as square as I could make them in the lathe, probably aren't perfectly square so when IU clamped it up it was not bearing on enough surface and the tube started to roll. Fortunately, I was able to stop the machine and avoided breaking something.

 

The next piece should be really interesting. I'm not sure I can do it — but I think it's worth a try.

 

jp

[JV Puleo]

The core lugs arrived just as I was leaving last night so this morning I put a 3/4" hole through one of them and screwed in the rear fitting.

 

 

I'll probably braze the nut to the fitting - not that it's in much danger of coming loose but once it's inside the manifold it will be impossible to reach.

 

 

I also made this plug (out of some bits from my mistakes shelf) for one end of the central tube. I can hold one end in the chuck but I need to be able to turn the other end and a bull nose center doesn't leave much room to work.

 

 

The rest of the day was devoted to the central tube. This is a piece of 3" OD, 2-1/4" ID DOM tubing. I could have bought something closer to the finished size but I got this on ebay for about half the price.

 

 

With the ends turned down to 2-1/2" to fit inside the welded pieces.

 

 

Then the OD turned to 2-7/8". Tomorrow I will trim the ends which are supposed to be 3/4" long and fit it to the engine. I made the central part about .060 too long because it is much easier to trim the pieces that are attached to the blocks than it is to shorten the central portion of the tube.

 

 

This is going to be milled with sixteen 1/2" flutes but first I have to finish getting the dividing head in order.

[Bloo]

Is that for the end of the exhaust? FWIW my attempts in years past to braze that close to an exhaust port only resulted in melted brass while in operation. Is the exhaust temperature of a brass era car cold enough that you can get away with it?

[JV Puleo]

As far as I know, yes. Braze repairs were fairly common on brass era manifolds. I did look into that and have some temperature figures somewhere. Generally, one of the characteristics of brass era cars is that they are much colder running than modern cars. This was probably true right through the late 20s. I'll look into it again though now that you mention it. They could be welded in though I have to get that done as my welding skill isn't up to the task.

 

But, if you ran it under heavy load with the spark retarded you probably could melt brass. I'd bet the manifold would get red hot but I've never seen one anywhere near that hot under normal operating conditions.

 

Also, the whole idea of the fluted manifold is to dissipate heat as quickly as possible. This is the opposite of modern engine thinking but under hood temperature isn't a problem with most, if not all brass era engines and cooling the exhaust gas aids in quieting the exhaust.

 

jp

Edited August 8, 2018 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[mikewest]

The motor would SEIZE SOLID before brass would melt on a manifold.

[JV Puleo]

Today I fitted the center tube and counter bored the end pieces for the core plugs. Here's the rear section in the lathe. It just fit. Of course. I should have done this before it was welded but that's what happens when you change the design in mid-project.

 

 

I also assembled it on the engine to make sure everything fit. The next step is fluting the center section but I've some things to finish up with the dividing head before I can do that.

 

 

And from the rear showing the fitting to bleed off exhaust pressure.

 

[Luv2Wrench]

On 8/6/2018 at 9:40 PM, Bush Mechanic said:

 You could build one yourself, when you have nothing else to do...   

 

 

I'm a subscriber to This Old Tony and had never even heard of a two piece vise until that episode.   Finding one immediately on CL and then Joe using one was quite the odd coincidence. 

 

I tried to follow along but my kitchen knife couldn't cut the steel stock I started with.

 

[Luv2Wrench]

Wow, that's really looking great now Joe!!

[Bush Mechanic]

2 hours ago, Luv2Wrench said:

 

I'm a subscriber to This Old Tony and had never even heard of a two piece vise until that episode.   Finding one immediately on CL and then Joe using one was quite the odd coincidence. 

 

I tried to follow along but my kitchen knife couldn't cut the steel stock I started with.

 

 I had not heard of one either. Something a bit heavier would be handy.  It's hard to better This Old Tony. I finally watched the multi-metre episode last night. April first release. Tears were running from laughter.

[Luv2Wrench]

1 hour ago, Bush Mechanic said:

 I had not heard of one either. Something a bit heavier would be handy.  It's hard to better This Old Tony. I finally watched the multi-metre episode last night. April first release. Tears were running from laughter.

 

Without that valuable episode I wouldn't have realized I could weld with my Multimeter.   I have the same Fluke so it was particularly helpful for me.  I didn't know about the voice synthesizer mode either, and boy is that helpful. 

[Bush Mechanic]

2 hours ago, Luv2Wrench said:

 

Without that valuable episode I wouldn't have realized I could weld with my Multimeter.   I have the same Fluke so it was particularly helpful for me.  I didn't know about the voice synthesizer mode either, and boy is that helpful. 

Unfortunately I dropped mine, and now it's stuck in Cantonese.

[JV Puleo]

I spent my shop time today working out the bugs with the dividing head. The first step was to enlarge the slots on the import tailstock I bought. At some point, I'll make a center lug for this to line it up easily on the mill table but for this job I think I can do without it.

 

 

I adjusted the tailstock to get it level with the dividing head. For this, I used a grinder arbor I bought years ago for $5. It's straight and accurate to .0005.

 

 

Then I put the chuck in dividing head and did it again. It actually measures about .008 high on one end so I'll go back to this tomorrow. Some of that will be a slight taper in the turning. This lathe was left outdoors for the best part of 15 years and was rusted solid when I started working on it. There is a problem with the base of the tailstock which is badly corroded in one corner – the effect of having a mouse nest in it. It's only recently that I got the equipment I need to make permanent repairs. In the meantime, it's shimmed up. It really isn't bad the way it is - about .002-.003 taper in 12 inches.

 

Edited August 9, 2018 by JV Puleo
program wasn't working correctly (see edit history)