JV Puleo

My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project

Recommended Posts

Joe,  I slipped on the terminology for materials needed from which I could build my intake manifold.  Please check EBAY item number 173219033537.  This number calls for 2" Copper "tube" with a 1/16" wall.  This material would be perfect for use on my manifold for the horizontal runner and also the drop for the carburetor.  I just need to get my hands on a 1-1/2" brass threaded fitting to see if it can take the machining needed to insert the 2" tube.

Al

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I took your advice and ordered two elbows... one long radius and one sort because I can't really tell from the pictures which will work better. I'll just rework the plan a bit. Actually, it may work out to be a bit cheaper this way too as I have a large amount of tubing that was slightly too big.... now I may be able to use it.

 

j

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Joe,  I will speak from experience, the larger the fitting, the easier the fitting before welding!  2-1/2" is much nicer than 2"!  Welding is also nicer as you have a bigger fitting to soak up the heat of welding.  Will 2-1/2" give you enough margin to build your mounting flange and be able to make up your stud and nuts?

Al

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Joe,  Good for you.  You may find that the long radius elbows would be good for getting away from the jug and the short radius can be used to turn from the horizontal to the vertical.  No wasted parts at all.....

Al

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Al... buy a bunch of that NOW. That's about 1/2 the price  - or less - than I paid for mine. I wish I could have used it!

There is no problem with the flanges, the larger diameter makes the job easier. Strangely enough, my original plan called for these dimensions. I only just noticed that because I went back and found my original drawings...

 

jp

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good Morning Joe,

When do you expect delivery of your butt weld elbows?  I am anxious to hear of your thoughts and plans.

Al

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Probably this week... things usually take 3 or 4 days if shipped immediately, unless they are coming from the west coast. These are coming from Texas.

 

jp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Joe,  What is the actual OD measurement of the copper you have used for your intake manifold.  You suggested that it was 1-3/4" Copper.  I am thinking the actual measurement would be about 1/8" (.125") larger.  The copper I had you look at is advertised being 2" but I actually think it is 2.125" OD?

Al

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The actual measurement is 1-3/4. I bought it from McMaster Carr. In their copper tube listings, the sizes up to 1" or 1-1/4 inch are conventional tube measurements which, as we know, aren't the real size. Larger than that, they are the real size. I'm at a loss to explain how or why it works that way.

 

jp

 

I just double checked it... 1-1/4 tubing has an OD of 1-3/8. It is measured on the ID. 1-1/2 and up are measured on the OD.

 

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Joe,  McMaster-Carr is sure a good source for just about anything.  I needed some steel from which I could make some specific coiled flat springs.  McMaster-Carr was able to help.  If you ever need any heat treat steel flatbar I have extra!

Al

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back to the intake manifold... today I started by turning up some alignment plugs. These will allow me to position the flanges on the block without having to drill the holes in the flanges.

 

IMG_0439.thumb.JPG.10dc7700a3132980c569e7b296c09561.JPG

 

Here they are inserted in the engine and the flanges mounted on them. The one on the right is perfect. The one on the left is about .100 high. Ths was to be expected because the holes in the block aren't really round. Since the manifolr utlets are slightly larger than the holes in the block, adjusting the flange to sit properly won't cause a problem.

 

IMG_0440.thumb.JPG.22d0f0b9d9124d81476640cf54fbe026.JPG

 

IMG_0441.thumb.JPG.f0e26e11a5cff588974540024c9334de.JPG

 

I then measured and cut a piece of tubing. I also decided to shorten the center T union. Since the tube is really one piece, this won't have any effect on its functioning and I think it looks better - not to mention it makes the polishing a bit easier. Aso, with shorter arms, it won't look so much like a reworked pipe fitting.

 

IMG_0443.thumb.JPG.1f50daaa630d627cb8c519709efb97b6.JPG

 

I also tried the cross piece... you can see here how it works. I discovered that my 45-degree elbow won't work. The angle is much shallower so I'll have to think of something for that. It occurs to me that I should just bend the tubing on the carburetor side once I've calculated the proper angle. I'll have to look into that as I know nothing about bending tube accurately.

 

IMG_0442.thumb.JPG.6276b8c8e6365db6c9f43791e1f7eda6.JPG

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 "I'll have to look into that as I know nothing about bending tube accurately."

Pipe bending can be outsourced to a shop with the right gear such as a mandrel bender however many years ago I saw a very effective method that requires no special gear.  The section of pipe was filled with dry sand, each end was plugged with newspaper driven into a hard plug with  a ball peen hammer.  The pipe was heated to red heat and easily bent to the correct shape  without any collapsing of the pipe.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Joe,  I am lucky to have a local (within 200 miles) shop that does nothing but custom bend tubing.  They have a vast quantity of mandrels and jigs.   I had a pair of SS tail light stands build to replace an original and rusted out steel tube unit.  They turned out actually better than the original and I will never need to mess with rust in my life time.  I also had this shop duplicate a lower brass cross tie water manifold line for the Locomobile.  After seeing the failure of the original brass water pipe, I had this new manifold made out of copper; then brass plate it to match the rest of the brass piping.   I will describe that repair and place a few pictures on my Locomobile engine rebuild thread found elsewhere on this forum site.  That water manifold failure is what has prompted me to build my Wisconsin intake manifold out of copper and not brass.

Al

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How will expansion and contraction of the copper compare to that of the cylinders and the aluminium crankcase?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Spinneyhill said:

How will expansion and contraction of the copper compare to that of the cylinders and the aluminium crankcase?

 

I doubt it is any problem at all. The blocks shouldn't get any hotter than the coolant and the intake won't get hot at all. The exhaust manifold is a bigger problem. All they did in the period was to make certain the mounting holes were a little bigger than the studs so that it can move a tiny amount. Probably all of the better quality early cars had brass or copper intakes. The choice of iron on this car was economy rather than engineering.

 

I know about the sand method... and I'd thought of trying it but this copper tube is frightfully expensive (about $25 per foot) so I'm hesitant to try something new on it. The original RR Silver Ghost manifolds were bent by filling them with lead, bending them and then melting the lead out.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a photo from the internet... the copper & brass manifold is the intake. RR used yokes to hold them on. That allowed a small amount of expansion.

 

5ad402f7086b2_SilverGhostEngine.jpg.21e4bc4e572373c4fdb93c0efcb40d4b.jpg

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that some expansion will occur but not to the level that it will be an issue.

Al

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had an email from the people who sell the butt weld connections asking me questions about pressures... I think they were relieved to hear I was making a manifold so that wasn't an issue at all. Today I kept working on the intake. The first operation was to put a radius on the piece that runs between the blocks. I started by locating the center of the tube...this is a quick & dirty way to do it. I put a piece of 1-1/4 ground stock in the tool holder with some dychem on it. I then move it very carefully until the dychem scratches.

 

IMG_0444.thumb.JPG.fb72e21c53fe1459cbfda494a9a72d37.JPG

 

Then you lower the table and go in 1/2 the diameter of the ground stock (.625) + 1/2 the diameter of the tube (.875). That should center the spindle over the tube. It isn't perfect and is often off a few thousandths but this it not super-precision work.

 

IMG_0445.thumb.JPG.c599c1404f9daa7ac1e8ffedd408f7d8.JPG

 

With the spindle centered, I put a 1-3/4 end mill in the holder and very carefully fed it into the end of the tube. I've had very poor luck trying to machine copper before. It's soft, but very "grabby" - a real PIA to drill, so I fed it in by hand very carefully. The result was pretty good.

 

IMG_0446.thumb.JPG.f4a6f10ed8c7ca109449abb3bff964e6.JPG

 

This is what it should look like inside the T fitting.

 

IMG_0447.thumb.JPG.531f69553e4597c11f3a38a0af71dbef.JPG

 

I then started boring the hole it will line up with. I made a centering plug to fit in the brass fitting with a hole through the center for a punch. I then used the plug to level and center the tubing.

 

IMG_0448.thumb.JPG.b7dd37135a8003220edf9db2ff98a19c.JPG

 

The last step was to remove the brass T union and bore the hole... I'm going for just slightly larger than the inside diameter of the copper tube, mostly because I can't be sure it will align perfectly.

 

IMG_0449.thumb.JPG.41ebd4d840dedc3d5fe020f5d2e87165.JPG

 

I still haven't found someone to bend the tubing and also discovered that, if I go with the bent tube, I'll have to buy another piece. When I cut the piece off to use with the holding fixture I was planning to use it but now I find that I have two pieces left over that are too short. Oh well... much worse could happen.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Joe,

I work with a shop here in Utah that does a superb job with forming/bending tubing.  If all else fails...you could ship the piece to me and I could take it to the shop for you for custom bending.  Your "notching is gong the extra mile and is making for a nicely done manifold where you are minimizing the flow turbulence inside the manifold.  Good for you.  Oh yeah, copper behaves a lot like aluminum, sticky to machine.

Al

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Al. I may take you up on that. First I have to get another piece of tubing and finish the main part of the manifold. It is only then that I will be able to calculate the proper angle. Fortunately, my design allows for a little adjustment so it isn't necessary that the bend be absolutely perfect.

 

jp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More intake manifold stuff...

This will be the carburetor flange. I'm making it from a piece of bronze I bought on ebay a few years ago to make a water pump impeller...

The first step was to bore the 1-3/4 hole and then face it off. The material was fairly cheap because it had a hole drilled in it making the last inch of material pretty much worthless. In period this would have been a casting but it's even more work to make a pattern for only one part.

 

IMG_0450.thumb.JPG.5e9a8e85d342b0d0a3136c0df1982870.JPG

 

With it faced off, I turned the outside diameter at the widest part of the flange.

 

IMG_0451.thumb.JPG.f5a3a1c5db67cc21245a89e1c5ec9b2a.JPG

 

Then removed about 70% of the material to get the "neck" that will be soldered to the intake tubing. Because this will support the weight of the carburetor, I wanted it to be about 1" long.

 

IMG_0452.thumb.JPG.f7ba7246537e720c02787d88eb035f03.JPG

 

Here's the almost finished piece. Tomorrow I'll try to drill the holes and turn the lozenge shape.

 

IMG_0453.thumb.JPG.8ab2d685603e1a4afa2575b5953d39de.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's because I was using a scrap and only making one of them. If I wanted to make 20 of them, I'd make a pattern and have them cast. In that case, there would be very little waste. When you're only making one, machining it takes a lot less time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This piece of aluminum will become the fixture for turning the lozenge shape.

 

IMG_0454.thumb.JPG.b8531ff96a567ae34d7bbd15d92c371d.JPG

 

Turned down to 4-1/2" in diameter, with the front and back flat and perpendicular to the hole in the center.

 

IMG_0455.thumb.JPG.b9e2c88cabd59ed42466969eb707fa4d.JPG

 

The flange was then drilled using the SAE center-to-center figures for this size carburetor. I plotted one hole in the fixture, drilled and threaded it.

 

IMG_0456.thumb.JPG.f36fb214bc355e6b98dfe7c2b63d7245.JPG

 

I then bolted the flange to the fixture and centered it on the mark that should be where the other hole goes. But, to be certain it would be properly centered, I marked the second hole using the flange as a guide. With the holes drilled and tapped, the flange bolted right up.

 

IMG_0457.thumb.JPG.7b4f1279acc82ef4c0466fdec028b8d2.JPG

 

IMG_0458.thumb.JPG.02c8456f422d3c34669bce14e4565405.JPG

 

The piece was now turned down. Since it is off center, it only cuts one side at a time.

 

IMG_0459.thumb.JPG.98047b84e2447ca128d088e212f20740.JPG

 

 

When the first side is done, you flip the part over and turn the other side. The measurements are all good. Later, I used my belt sander to round off the ends so it doesn't have quite the machined look.

 

IMG_0460.thumb.JPG.48922b53706de3832a152574e7fbf41d.JPG

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow... fixtures to offset the part being turned... that opens up all kinds of possibilities.   It is really incredible what you're coming up with.   To save me going back through the posts... what's the thing in the middle that you're holding the piece with?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now