My 1910 Mitchell "parts car" project

[JV Puleo]

I've had one of those weekends where nothing went as planned. Making the exhaust manifold flanges proved a real headache... mostly because, for some reason I couldn't get the hole spacing correct. I did, finally, get somewhere but I'm not entirely pleased with the outcome. Here are the flanges with the sections that will go to the body of the manifold. These are all oversize. The finished flange will be about 3/8" thick. The tubes screw into them. This is to allow for adjustment when I make the body of the manifold. As it is, I have no drawings and no example to go on so I'm flying a bit blind. You'll notice the divits in the sides of the flanges. This was the result of my not getting the hole spacing right and having to do it again, 90 degrees off. I'm going to ask a friend to weld these up. If that doesn't work, I'll have to make them over. The wall thickness of the tubes is also much too thick. That is intentional. After they are welded to the body of the manifold, I intend to bore them out. That way they will be perfectly concentric with the manifold.

 

 

Here they are bolted to the blocks. They do seem to line up correctly. They are probably twice as long as they will be finished but I have no way to accurately measure how long they should be until I make the manifold body. The location of that part is determined by where the exhaust pipe runs. All this is part of reverse engineering a part when you don't have an original to go by.

 

Edited April 30, 2018 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[Terry Harper]

Hello Joe,

 

On your vane pump could you use a simple spring loaded bypass valve? Here is the drawing for the service pump for the Wisconsin.

 

This is the lower half or service pump and the gears.

Of importance is the passage on the upper right tapped 7/8-18 for a adjustable spring loaded plunger (note the offset cross-passages). When the pressure exceeds the

set amount it forces the plunger back and allows the excess to bleed back into the pan. Its a very low pressure system (5-10 psi) more dependent on volume than

velocity. While this looks like a complex piece it would be fairly easy to simplify and re-configure.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2018 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Thanks Terry. I was thinking along those lines but I have a difficult time envisioning what it would look like so this is a help. There isn't room inside the body of the vane pump for an integral bypass but I don't see why it couldn't be external, in the output line, returning the oil to the sump. Rather than being adjustable, if it was spring loaded it would just be a matter of trying out springs until it released at the right pressure.

[Spinneyhill]

1 hour ago, JV Puleo said:

a matter of trying out springs until it released at the right pressure.

You should be able to calculate the required spring? The area of the plunger x pressure = force on the spring. Just get a spring of the required force/deflection ratio and you are finished?

[JV Puleo]

Good idea... I admit to being science challenged... what I do know was all learned by rote.

Thanks,

 

jp

 

[JV Puleo]

Perhaps I should explain a bit more about the oil pressure issue. The original system was a drip oiler run off the front pulley. For any number of reasons, I'd prefer not to use that. It wasn't as good as a recirculating pump and I'm sure they knew that. This was the last year it was used.

 

The vane pump I've designed will work off the back of the camshaft with no alterations to the original crankcase but, it is a problem getting its output down to the recommended levels. Given the diameter and length of the bearings, Heldt recommends about 445 cubic inches of oil at maximum revolutions per minute which I'm optimistically saying is 1800 rpm. The pump will produce about 1/2 cubic inch per revolution or 900 cubic inches at 1800 rpm. I could easily alter the pump to produce twice that amount so my problem is figuring out how volume I need to supply the bearings and maintain some pressure. The oil lines may not feed directly to the bearings. I don't know because the engine was apart when I got it and there are no internal oil lines... but there may have been. I might also be able to add them (and I am inclined to do so) but until I start on the bottom end I won't know exactly what I'm dealing with.

[alsfarms]

Joe, like you I did not desire to run a "full lose" oil system on my Locomobile.  The one good thing about a full lose system is that the oil was once through.  Clean oil was fed to the engine (except the oil that was splash lubricating the bottom end).  When the oil was at a high level I suppose the early travelers probably just drained it on the ground.  (Maybe that is where the term "oiled road" comes from).   I decided to simply go with a bit of pressurized oil, set the relief at a fair rate, then add to that system an oil filter.  If I owned a very good survivor car that was running on the drip oiler system I would ABSOLUTELY stay with that system.  You have some novel ideas and I watch with interest.

Al

[JV Puleo]

I agree completely. One of the reasons I undertook this project was that I could not make these sort of changes to an intact, original car. My car was probably someone's abandoned project - a "parts car" they were trying to reassemble by finding the missing parts. It simply isn't realistic with a relatively obscure brass era automobile. I didn't realize it was so poorly built until I was well into it. I'm not keen on pulling over to the side of the road to dump some oil...and I'd be you might get a citation for that today. The fact is, in period most cars were over oiled, smoked like crazy and fouled plugs constantly because their operators (very few of which could drive when they bought a car) simply didn't know how to operate them efficiently. It might have been different with a big, high quality car with a professional driver but even then I bet many learned on the job. My late great uncle was a chauffeur for a time, before WWI, and got the job because he was known as a good mechanic. He'd never driven a car but the owners of the car he drove knew absolutely nothing about how they worked. I just found a photo of that car - and the runabout they bought so he could run errands for them without using the "big car"...

 

I sold a 1911 REO tourer that was in incredibly complete original condition, partly because I didn't like the slab-sided body but felt that changing it was unacceptable. Also, they oiled the roads regularly... it was an early way of keeping the dust down. I'll get an oil filter of some sort into the system somewhere and I'm using an air filter, even though they weren't invented at the time. I've too much invested in this project to wear the engine out in 5,000 miles.

[alsfarms]

Joe,  How many hours a day to you think you are investing into this Mitchell project.  I would sure like to be able to devote much more time on the Locomobile project.

Al

[JV Puleo]

I have no idea. When I'm making something, it may be 6 or 8 hours per day. There are times when I am on something else as I have some other responsibilities. Lately it has been closer to 8 or 10 hours per day but that can't keep up as I find myself getting stale and making errors. You also have to count mistakes...things I've made and then decided I didn't like or I thought of something better. So, I spent many hours designing a plunger oil pump but have now decided to go with the vane pump. I must have spent a month making a combination generator/distributor but have now decided to go with a separate generator and a separate, simplified version of my distributor. I don't think of it as wasted though as it is all a learning experience. Like I said at the beginning, I'm not a real machinist, just an enthusiastic amateur. A real machinist would not make as many errors as I have (though they are getting fewer). I think of it as a self-imposed apprenticeship.

 

Al, when you tested your oil pump, how did you simulate the connection between the oil lines and the main bearings? I can visualize a test fixture but the main bearing oil lines will be open at the ends which will not generate the pressure being fed directly into the engine bearings should.

[Spinneyhill]

Put a pressure release valve on the end of the line and see what comes past it?

[JV Puleo]

That's what I'm planning.

[Pluto]

Hi Joe,

I'm another lurker, I've been enthusiastically reading your posts since the beginning. I look forward to the next episode of "a problem revealed and a solution devised."

Thanks for the time and effort you put in.

[JV Puleo]

You are welcome. I'm doing this because I'm guessing that there are more than a few of us interested in this sort of thing. Today I started assembling the intake manifold... I should have more photos tomorrow night.

[JV Puleo]

I've gotten back to the intake manifold. Using one of the clamps I made to hold the crankshaft and soldering the "T" fitting to a short piece of tubing. This held the fitting securely while I filed and polished. It is tedious - and not one of my favorite jobs but it did work reasonably well. Here I've just taken the T off the piece of tubing.

 

 

The same clamp served to hold everything while I soldered the pieces in place.

 

 

Here's the finished piece. I suppose it could use a bit more polishing but, after all, it's also supposed to be 100 years old.

 

 

The last step was to mount it on the engine. I had to do this in order to calculate the angle of the bend of the piece that holds the carburetor. The last step will be soldering the ends into the elbows. As it stands right now, I can move it up and down slightly. This small amount of adjustment will allow me to get the carburetor flange perfectly level. It certainly doesn't look like the pipe fitting it started life as.

 

 

[mikewest]

Joe it looks very good!

 

[Terry Harper]

That looks great Joe!

 

Makes me want to get back to finishing my manifold  - the castings of which are collecting dust on the work bench.

[JV Puleo]

This is the carburetor side of the engine. In addition to finishing the intake manifold, I have to make the exhaust manifold and the water line connections and all of these cannot interfere with each other. Also, I am including an oil distribution manifold. The mechanical oiler was located on this side of the engine so all of the oil lines ran externally to their destinations. Since I'm moving the oil pump to the rear of the camshaft, I need a way of connecting it to the proper outlets. The oil distribution manifold should do this. It will be attached to the two water lines seen here. What you see in the photo are a pair of crossover pipe connectors. I had intended to use these but the more I fiddled with them, the less they seemed adequate to the task.

 

 

So... I'm making my own. I'm not certain this will work perfectly but it is worth a try. Ordinarily, I don't like using "mystery metal" but in this case, the two pieces of each hanger will be brazed together (a technique that was commonly used in the period)... so I am making the parts out of some old pieces of mill shafting I have left over from my garage days, about 40 years ago. By making these to suit the purpose, I can alter their sizes to work better. The first part was to bore and ream the pieces... the upper pieces are reamed 1" (and will be bored out to 1.1" when they are done so that they will slide over pieces of 3/4" brass pipe). The lower pieces are bored and reamed 1.25".

 

 

All of the pieces are 1/25" long. In order that they fit properly, I have to be fairly precise in making them although this has very little to do with their actual function. The pieces of shafting I cut were about 1-3/4" long so with one end squared off, I marked them at 1.25" using this antique Brown & Sharpe height gage. This will allow me to get them close... when I'm actually trimming them I'll measure them with a micrometer.

 

 

I should add that forum member alsfarms has generously offered to arrange the tube bending needed to complete the intake manifold. While that is happening, I'll work on the water connections and the exhaust manifold.

Edited May 7, 2018 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Nice job Joe.......

[alsfarms]

Hello Joe,  I finally have some information regarding the 1.5" threaded brass fittings I plan to use in the building of my intake manifold.  Please remind me how much meat you were left with when you removed the outside strengthening rib and skimmed out the ID threads on your 1.250 brass fittings?  I am coming up with about .067 wall thickness after I remove the threads and rib on a similar 1.5 brass elbow or tee.  I think it will be doable but I need to make sure that I stay concentric to keep the wall uniform around the circumference.  What are your thoughts?

Al

[JV Puleo]

I didn't remove the entire rib at the base of the elbow. What I did was turn it until it was round and smooth. That diameter was slightly less than 2.1 inches. I then threaded it. The threaded holes in the flanges were done using the threaded elbows as a gage. Since they will ultimately be soldered or brazed together, the threading is just a means of getting the parts in their securely. I'm not much better at brazing than I am at welding but you could also do it by simply turning the rib on the elbow round and boring a hole in the flange to match. If I were confident that I could have made a secure weld or braze, I'd have done it that way. I'll take some photos in a few minutes and post them tonight.

 

jp

 

Edit... go to posts 184 and 185. You'll see that I didn't remove all of the reinforcing rib at the base of the elbow.

Edited May 8, 2018 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I made up the steel rings. Then, because it is two rings perpendicular to each other, I cut a relief in the larger ring with a 1-1/2" end mill to make a flat place between them. This worked better than I had expected.

 

 

 

I then set out to braze them together - and that is where everything went sideways. First, it is not easy to align them and, more to the point, hold them together tightly. I finally cobbled something together using "V" blocks and a big "C" clamp. But, as I should have anticipated, my brazing technique leaves something to be desired. It simply didn't come out neat enough to satisfy me. Added to that, I'd made the smaller ring, the one that goes over the water outlet pipe, a bit too small. It slid n when it was in the lathe but must have distorted slightly in the clamping and brazing so that it wouldn't go over the pipe. Unfortunately, it is a strange size, 1.045", the outside diameter of 3/4" brass pipe. At this point, I realized I would not be satisfied with the job even if I could get it to work so I started over in aluminum.

 

However, there is a silver lining to this. I modified the dimensions slightly and made the new water pipe rings .005 larger. I have some aluminum brazing rod & flux that I bought to use when I make the water pump. It occurred to me that perhaps I'd better find out if I could use it effectively and this will be the perfect test. It was a matter of a few hours to make these parts again but making the water pump a 2nd time would be a much more daunting prospect.

 

When I bored the small rings out to the odd size, I set it up in the lathe using the expanding arbor to indicate. This allowed me to put the entire piece in the jaws of the chuck which, in turn, assures it will be about as straight as I can make it.

 

 

Here are the new pieces and my rejected steel version. It was after 5 when I got done and I want to make a little fixture to hold these pieces firmly in place while I experiment with the brazing compound. This stuff comes from a firm called Muggy Weld." I've never used it, but everyone I know who has used their products has raved over them. They are expensive but if it does the job it will be well worth the expense.

 

Edited May 8, 2018 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

Well...that didn't work. I did something wrong or, just as likely, my limited equipment isn't up to it. The brazing didn't stick and my clamp deformed one of the rings...

 

 

This is proving to be a headache, but there is a plan D. In the meantime, I went on to other things. This is going to be a very robust clamp that will hold the exhaust pipe in place on the engine and, more importantly, provides a sturdy support to the exhaust manifold. I've ordered some stuff I need to proceed with the oil manifold hangers and, when it arrives, I'll get back to that.

 

[Spinneyhill]

1 hour ago, JV Puleo said:

The brazing didn't stick

 

I would imagine it is very difficult to braze aluminium because of the instant oxide layer that forms when you expose a surface to the air. Is there a flux that will cut that layer?

[JV Puleo]

I used the special flux that comes with the brazing rod. I have to presume I just didn't do it correctly, which is not surprising when you consider how little experience I have with any of those processes. About 99% of my work has been with Edwardians and pre-WWII RRs, neither of which have many - or any - welded parts so, aside from the occasional repair I've never had much need for it.

[JV Puleo]

I've been working on three or four things at once, partly because it is more efficient but also because the water lines, exhaust manifold and oil manifold are all interrelated. I need to make sure that they don't interfere with each other and I have no original parts to work from. Rather than show the parts in the order I am working on them, I'll try to show each part separately. The first are the water connections.  I need four of these, two for the top of the engine and two for the side. These will be a smaller version of the coupling I made for the intake manifold. The first step was to machine the nuts. This is some sintered bronze bearing stock I had. It doesn't polish well, but it should be fine for this job. Each piece will be two nuts.

 

 

They were bored and reamed to 1.25". This allowed me to put them on the expanding arbor to take a very light cut off the outside, making sure that the inside and outside were concentric.

 

 

Once that was done, I put them back in the chuck, carefully indicated, and bored them to 1.312". The thread size is 1-3/8-16

Rather than cut the entire thread, I only cut it about half-way...just deep enough to easily start a tap. This assures that the tap will go in perfectly straight and the tapped threads will be both cleaner and more uniform than I am likely to do single-pointing them.

 

 

As soon as it was clear that the tap would go in fairly easily, I took the piece out of the chuck and ran the tap through.

 

 

Here are the finished pieces. There is quite a bit more to do but this is a good start.

 

[JV Puleo]

I've finally struggled to the end of making the hangers for the oil manifold. The first step was making another set of rings...

 

 

I then made this odd looking fixture to hold the pieces together while I drilled them. It worked, albeit not quite as well as I'd hoped.

 

 

 

The two rings are attached with a flat head socket cap screw inside, countersunk into the upper ring. None of this will be visible, of course. I've also drilled and tapped for set screws to hold them rigid. With a think wall thickness like this, you want fine thread set screws but I've been unable to find slotted 5/16-24 set screws. I used socket heads but will put them where they are not visible.

 

 

Here are the pieces on the jugs. I also bought screws that were a bit short. Tomorrow I'll get some longer, put a drop of loctight on the threads and call it quits on this job.

 

 

Edited May 16, 2018 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

I want to make the exhaust manifold but because the water connections are below it, I need to make certain they don't interfere with the exhaust pipe. Also, one of the things that really interests me is the problem of making interchangeable parts. There is a great deal more to it than making a single part so this is a chance to try out some of my techniques. I need four water connections, two for the side of the engine and two for the top. The goal is to make them identical enough to be interchangeable. I'm starting with four pieces of 1-1/2" diameter brass bar.

 

 

These were drill and reamed to 1".

 

 

They were then mounted on an expanding mandrel. The threaded part has a diameter of 1-3/8" while the larger ring at the rear will be machined to accept a hook spanner, used to screw the water connections into the blocks.

 

 

These are now ready to thread but there are two other parts that will need the same thread, the ends for the screw-on gland nuts and a fixture to hold the nuts while I machine them. I was called away on another job today so I didn't quite finish prepping those parts. This will be the holding fixture.

 

[JV Puleo]

The threading went well. By using the indicator, I was able to thread all the parts pretty near identically.

 

 

 

I am almost ready to put the final touches on these and assemble them.

The steel piece is intended to hold the nuts while I knurl them... but I have to fix the knurling tool first.

Edited May 21, 2018 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

You are certainly gaining on the exterior stuff needed to complete your engine.

Al

[JV Puleo]

It's largely a matter of building up skills. I've had most of the materials to make both the pistons and connecting rods for a long time but I'm only just now starting to feel as if I can do those jobs properly. A few of the things I made when I started this project will likely be done again because my skills, and my machine capacity, have increased a lot in the past two or three years. These external parts are as decorative as they are functional. I try to make them as precisely as I can, but "engine bearing precision" isn't really necessary.

[JV Puleo]

The next step was to turn the caps to the finished OD and cut each piece in half.

 

 

Here are the caps fitted to their respective ends.

 

 

As often is the case, when I see the part I think of improvements. In this case, I am reducing the size. They were really larger than was needed so I'm reducing the threaded length to 1/2" and the width of the rib that will be notched for a hook spanner to 3/8". The long threaded piece will provide the ends of the caps...soldered in place like I did the intake manifold coupling and the cap of the oil filler/breather.

 

 

Aside from cutting the notches for the spanner, the ends are done. Since I am cutting notches for a hook spanner in both the ends and the nuts, I'll have to do that at the same time - it requires a completely different setup on the mill. Before I do that I will have to make a repair to my knurling tool and put the ends in the caps.

 

Edited May 25, 2018 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Joe,  am I correct in thinking that all of these nice brass and bronze pieces will be polished when mounted, the final time, on your engine?  They should look great.

Al

[JV Puleo]

It will all be polished when I install it but I can't see myself keeping it polished. In the period, I doubt much of this stuff was polished after it was installed. I made a lot of progress today but the camera is malfunctioning. I'm on the radio (locally) tomorrow morning... a call-in car-show that is hosted by two of my oldest friends. In the afternoon I'll have to mow but I should be back in the shop on Sunday.

[old car fan]

The rebuild. Is awesome,how about a link to the show

[JV Puleo]

I had to think about that one. Truth to tell, I wasn't even sure which station we're on because it changed a few years ago. For some reason, I can't copy the link - a running computer glitch. It's "Drive-thru Radio" with Paul & John Zangari, on am790 (Rhode Island) from 8 to 9 am, Saturday mornings. I do this a few times a year, mostly when one or the other of the Zangari brothers is otherwise occupied that day. John especially likes to mention a little book I wrote, Getting Home Alive, because he's mentioned in just about the first sentence.

 

[JV Puleo]

I made the reduced size end of the nuts by cutting that long threaded piece into 1/4" segments. These were threaded into the cap, lubricated with soldering flux until there was 3/4" of thread exposed on the inside, at which point I soldered them in place.

 

 

The ends were then turned until the overall length of the cap was .875. I also decided to reduce the diameter to 1-3/4 as the wall thickness was greater than it needed to be.

 

 

Here are the 4 caps turned to size. The two hexagonal nuts in the photo are from the original water system. I never had any of the "plumbing" for this engine, just the 1/2 of the connections that were attached to the jugs.

 

 

With this done, I knurled the outside surface...

 

 

As each one was done, I moved the nut, still attached to the turning fixture, over to the mill and cut 6 1/4" slots in the radius for a hook spanner. One of the problems with knurling like this is that the pressure on the workpiece is tremendous, screwing it onto the fixture much too tightly to be taken off with hand pressure. To get the cap off, I had to put it in the chuck on the mill and use my tommy-bar.

 

 

 

 

 

Although I can see some minor flaws in the finished product, they don't justify making these over. They will work just fine and I doubt anyone but me will ever notice my errors. If I had it to do over again, I would not use the sintered bearing material. It did not machine all that well and, while it will work, I'd have been better advised to have made everything out of 360 brass. Here are the finished nuts. Tomorrow I'll make the pieces that connect them to the jugs.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2018 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Let us know how your intake tubing works out.  You creativity is really nice.

Al

[JV Puleo]

That's coming as soon as I finish the water connections. In order to support the intake, I need to make the oil manifold and that is attached to the water tubes...so I need to get all of them done together. I finished two of the connections today. First I turned down a piece of 3/4 brass pipe to an OD of 1". These pieces were twice as long as then needed to be but I'd made them up for another part of the job, then changed my mind about how to go about it. Rather than waste them, I'm using them here.

 

 

After I'd cut the piece off, I slipped the inner portion of the water connection over it and soldered the whole thing together.

 

 

This went very well. I made the inner piece a bit long because it was then put back in the lathe and turned down until it projects 1/16" of an inch. This will serve to locate the high-temp flat surface o-rings I will use as a seal. They are 1" ID, 1-1/4" OD and 1/8" thick so the projection needs to hold them in place but not interfere with the "crush". Since the actual thickness is .139 I am certain this will be just fine.

 

 

Here's the connection screwed into the block. I then finished the 2nd one and gathered up the stuff to make the two on the side of the engine. I have various bits on order to finish the water tubing side...those should be in next week. I'm not too concerned about the top of the engine but I want to get the side of the engine squared away before I finish the intake and make the exhaust manifold.

 

 

 

[alsfarms]

Nice install.  You are moving right along.

Al