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1925 Master


Charlie G
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I am new to the forum.  I am restoring a 1925 54C.  I would like to remove the gear shift stick.  I believe it should be nickel plated but it at least needs some kind of restoration if plating is not correct.  I have tried removing the set screw and sleeve that is visible but cannot tell if that is necessary.  What is the correct way to remove it?  Thanks.  

 

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Welcome Charlie. In my standard it's painted black and doesn't appear to have ever been plated but I don't know about the master. I'll be interested in hearing how to get it out as well as I have a little bit of slop in the linkages that I've been meaning to investigate. On first look it looks like you have to take the selector off the top of gearbox to get it out but perhaps there is a trick to it. Has yours got the gearbox lock next to the stick?

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Charlie:

 I do believe on the Master Sport models that the shift lever and it's base were plated. I nave not had my tower off of my 1925-45 so I can not help in disassembly. The photo of this 1927-54 Sport roadster shows the items plated. But on this car he had many things plated that had not been originally. Also a photo of a 1924-55 sport touring.DSCF5605.thumb.JPG.37b4afe0131d2d0d3ccb718a900da872.JPG

 DSCF1631.thumb.JPG.a83d2b43f52814fd9e94ac8f436e44a2.JPG

 

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I have removed the tower and I see a shaft perpendicular to the stick that might be removable.  I was hoping something easy would be the answer but it doesn't look that way.  The parts diagram from 24 shows a longer stick than I thought it would be but it has to be attached inside the tower because it doesn't extend below the tower.  In fact, it is not visible from inside the tower.  I'm wondering if is just threaded but the parts diagram again doesn't appear that it would.  I have a spare transmission that I could experiment with to see what could be done from the inside.  They both look the same but since I bought them separate from the engine, now I'm wondering if there is a different transmission for the standard and master series.  If so, how do I tell what series they are to be used with.   As far as plating, I found traces of plating on a 26 master handbrake.  I suspect the 25 should be also.  It seems logical that both would be plated as they are next to each other anyway.  Thanks for your replies so far.

Charlie  

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Charlie, my Standard has a plated handbrake lever and a painted gear stick so I'm not sure you can draw a conclusion purely on one versus the other but it does sort of make sense that Buick wanted the Master to be a class above the Standard so made this a distinction. I'm confident someone will know for sure as there is a wealth of knowledge available on here

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Charlie,

     For sure, the handbrake is Nickel plated for both the Standard and the Master in 1925.  The gear shift lever is definitely black on the Standard.  I think some Master models may have had the shift lever nickeled, but I would need to research that one a little more. 

 

The 1925 standard transmission side embossed numbers in the casting are 173414. 

Hugh

Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)
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Charlie

You would need to remove the whole tower and gear lever .  I have not disassembled  one but it looks to me as though the shaft at the side needs removing,  This shaft looks like it connects the gear lever to the selectors.  This was off a 24-55 and the nickel can still be seen.

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My 24-45 has a plated hand brake lever, and black painted shift lever.  I believe that to be correct.

 

As shown above, the 24-55 had a plated shift lever.  That makes sense, the higher the model number, the more expensive, and more ornate and trimmed out the cars were.  Kinda.

 

My reprint 1927 shop manual actually lists the steering column tube diameter for Master and Standard, and that the Standard column was black and the Master column was plated.

 

My 27-25 and 27-54CC shift levers are both plated, and I believe that to be correct.  As the 20's went on, again, the more brightwork there seems to be.

 

If a part is painted, it may have been painted only because the original plating failed over time and it was easier to paint it than to replate it. 

 

If you remove some of the paint on your gearshift lever, maybe you can confirm if there is plating under it or not.

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10 hours ago, dibarlaw said:

Charlie:

 I do believe on the Master Sport models that the shift lever and it's base were plated. I nave not had my tower off of my 1925-45 so I can not help in disassembly. The photo of this 1927-54 Sport roadster shows the items plated. But on this car he had many things plated that had not been originally. Also a photo of a 1924-55 sport touring.DSCF5605.thumb.JPG.37b4afe0131d2d0d3ccb718a900da872.JPG

 DSCF1631.thumb.JPG.a83d2b43f52814fd9e94ac8f436e44a2.JPG

 

 

Thank you for sharing these pictures, those are absolutely beautiful interiors.  Great details.

 

That snake skin or alligator interior is incredible, a truly high end car!

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I found casting numbers on the side of the transmission 37846-5 on both of the housings.  The tower had a casting number 163490-1.  However,  Hugh listed 173414 for the transmission in 1925.   Do these numbers confirm any year or model?  If so, will this transmission still work with the master series engine?  Thanks

 

Charlie

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Charlie,

The casting number 37846 is also found on 1921-1923 6 cylinder cars, so if this is what is in your 1925 Buick Master, then it was used for several years.  173414 is for the smaller standard series, and will not interchange with the Master.    I will have to look in my big book for the cover casting number, but I will not be able to check that until Monday.     Hugh

Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)
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The casting number on my 25 Master transmission is 181362. I also have a 24 6 cylinder transmission with casting number 37846. The differences I have found is the 24 uses a square main shaft and the 25 uses a spline main shaft. The 24 transmission does not have the large brass sleeve bearing in the ball joint that bolts to the torque tube to support the driveshaft. I have not compared the transmission housings to see if they would interchange. The input shaft, cluster gears and shaft as well as shift forks do interchange. Not sure if shift tower will???

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Inspired by Charlie I pulled the top off my gearbox this weekend to work out why there was some slop in the stick.

 

Now I know why! Img 183/184 is the front selector and 185/186 is the rear one. Both selectors are heavily worn and I guess will need to be welded and ground out before I reinstall. I haven't worked out how to get lock barrel out yet. I've removed the 3 set screws around the barrel but it steadfastly refuses to move. Any suggestions are welcome.

 

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UPDATE.

The scoring on the forks appears to be the result of the gate retaining pins (that I think are to stop it dropping out of gear). Anyway they are in the side of the top cover and have a slot that they live in when the car is in gear.  These were quite stiff and not retracting properly so when you changed gears they scored down the side of the forks. I've cleaned them out and they slide a lot freer now.

Edited by 26-25Buick
Update to information (see edit history)
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Neil,

    The first thing you need is a key.  You can get an original Yale key cut for your car if you provide the letter and numbers from the top of the lock cylinder.  The company is Jesser's Classic Keys.  330-376-8181 keymanjj@hotmail.com  The second thing you will need to do is to spray penetrating lube in the lock cylinder and around the lock barrel.  It will need time to soak in and you will need to reapply.  The third thing is to remove the small set screw in the side of the transmission cover at the lock cylinder.  I had to use vise grips on the key to gently work it back and forth and up and down.  It took a while but it finally loosened up and is all working now.

Hugh

 

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Very helpful Hugh. I've sent off an enquiry to Jesser to order a key as I don't have one.

 

Another question. How do you get the case cover collar (part #163049) in the top of your circle under the dust cap (part #151471) off the mast. Mine must have put a fight before as it's showing the scars of some previous attempts. Is it a screw or a push fit?

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Exactly Hugh it is these 2 parts. My '26 parts book has those listed on different pages so wouldn't have posted nearly as well as yours did. Looking at the mast (#180041 above) I still can't work out why my case cover won't budge as there is no thread shown. No sign of a pin that I could find either, it just seems to be jammed on.

Any suggestions welcome

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Neil,

Mine is pretty stuck too.  I think the way to remove it is as follows.  The 2 covers that I have called A&B I believe are the same metal thickness.  Remove the set screw and slide cover A up first.  I scratched around the base of B with a pick.  I think cover B is likely semi press fit and perhaps a little rusted in place.  I think you need to remove cover B to expose the pivot rod for the shifter.  See mast part number #180041.  The pivot hole is in the dome of the mast.  I tried briefly to work around it with an old wood chisel, but stopped to make sure I did not damage anything.  Maybe someone else has a better solution for removing this.    Hugh

 

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I noticed that on the nickel plated shifter shown on plate 25 in the 1925 Master Book, it appears that the nickel plating stops with the 2 metal covers A&B.  Some may be plating further down on the cover tower because they are not able to remove the metal covers?    Hugh

 

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1 hour ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

Neil,

Mine is pretty stuck too.  I think the way to remove it is as follows.  The 2 covers that I have called A&B I believe are the same metal thickness.  Remove the set screw and slide cover A up first.  I scratched around the base of B with a pick.  I think cover B is likely semi press fit and perhaps a little rusted in place.  I think you need to remove cover B to expose the pivot rod for the shifter.  See mast part number #180041.  The pivot hole is in the dome of the mast.  I tried briefly to work around it with an old wood chisel, but stopped to make sure I did not damage anything.  Maybe someone else has a better solution for removing this.    Hugh

 

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Hugh, I'm going to try the same thing as I can't see anything else but it's on there tight at the moment 

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Hugh

 

I tried to loosen the cover B by tapping lightly with a flat punch around the perimeter where a small gap exists.  I didn't notice any movement so I will apply some penetrating spray before the next attempt.  I also needed a key and will contact Jesser for that.  You have been helpful and I think the stick will be removed the way you explained. The 2 covers will need plating as well so I will eventually get them off.

 

Charlie

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4 hours ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

I like this picture that Larry DiBarry sent me because it looks original, and in my opinion, looks like where the nickel plating stopped on the transmission, and shows a nickel plated steering tube.    Hugh

 

 

That is a great observation Hugh.  And that is one reason I really like it when pictures are shared.  So much detail can be revealed, and a lot can be learned.  I agree with the plated steering tube as original.

 

Additionally, on the dash it can be seen that the choke and carb heat control plate background, should match the gauge background, as shown by this original dash.  This is another detail I have yet to correct on my 54CC as I have to take a gauge face plate to the painter and have the paint matched, to be able to paint the background on the choke/carb plate.  My to-do list is never ending!

 

 

 

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Edited by 27donb (see edit history)
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What i found when restoring the geabox in my car, was that "cover b" as identifed earlier was soft soldered on! Therefore to remove the gearstick i had to first heat the cover with an oxy-acetylene torch to melt the solder (ie get it really hot), and then with my other 3 spare hands to lever the cover off whilst keeping the flame directed at the cover.

Once off you can remove the pin to release the gearstick.

Goodluck.

 

David.

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David

 

You are correct.  I removed it however if any solder was used, I saw no evidence of it.  It came off with heat but it is obviously pressed on tightly and I expect the heat expansion allowed it to be removed.  Thanks to all for the various bits of info and expertise.

 

Charlie

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  • 2 years later...

Well, it's been 2 years but the engine has finally been rebuilt and with the attached transmission I am unable to fit the assembly into the space and line it up with the motor attachment points on the chassis.  It appears the transmission is longer that space allows.  When I obtained the transmission, I was told it was for 1925 Master.  As mentioned earlier, the number in the casting is 37846-5.  I would be willing to trade it for the correct tranny but need to confirm the correct number.  Anyone know of a source for this?   

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Charlie, 

The 1925 Buick engine is hard bolted (no rubber motor mounts).   On the flywheel housing are 2 large bolts on opposite sides into the frame.  The front is a mount with webbing inside which is mounted to the front cross member.  I would think about moving the torque tube out of the way and installing the motor - with or without the transmission attached - whichever is easier.  The transmission hangs off the back of the flywheel housing.  I would bolt the engine into place ,  then the transmission, and then proceed to lining up the torque tube.  In that order.   It will require unbolting the axle clamps on the ends of the rear leaf springs.

To answer you question - from the big book.

 

37846 is the transmission casting for E-H-K-1921 thru 1924 6 cylinder domestic, 1925 40-45A first 7500 jobs.

181362 is the transmission casting for 1925-1926 Master 6 domestic

 

They changed something in the transmission.  I don't know what.  Odd to see the listing because a 1925 -45A is really just a fixed top version of a 1925 model 45, so I don't see how it would effect the transmission.   I would be inclined to think that the issue may be with installation rather than having the wrong transmission.    Hugh

 

 

 

 

Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)
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Charlie,  I agree with Hugh.  You need to unbolt the rear spring hangers that attach to the rear axle housing so you are able to move the axle and torque tube back. If you remove the rear tires,  you are able to move the rear axle and torque tube further back creating extra room.  This will allow the room to install the engine and gear box.  Then you can move the rear axle and torque tube forward and attach to the gear box.  I place blocks of wood under the wheels so the axle doesn,t  drop down too low.

Edited by ROD W (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, ROD W said:

Charlie,  I agree with Hugh.  You need to unbolt the rear spring hangers that attach to the rear axle housing so you are able to move the axle and torque tube back. If you remove the rear tires,  you are able to move the rear axle and torque tube further back creating extra room.  This will allow the room to install the engine and gear box.  Then you can move the rear axle and torque tube forward and attach to the gear box.  I place blocks of wood under the wheels so the axle doesn,t  drop down too low.

 

Some pictures of when I did this on my 27.  Might be similar enough to help you. 



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